[Politics] Protests/rioting in lots of places

[NorthstandRacoon]

To be fair, most people do meet in the middle ground. It's just the outliers are noisy and dramatic and prominent in the media and social media. Farage is a good example of this, a total outlier (and grifter and fraud) who has been on Question Time more than his profile warrants.

Us reasonable and sensible people are not interesting enough to get the exposure necessary.

Truth, accuracy and accountability are becoming a rarer commodity.

Have to say, spot on.

 

[BadFish]

Yep, those of us moderates, voicing non-polarised, informed and balanced POV and taking care to fact check content, get far less attention on social media than those posting strong reactionary views to either side of the political/social spectrum.

Like the old printed journalism - there’s never a headline story in mediocrity and serious debate, just sensationalism, shock value and extremism.

And here we sit in a world with opinion, feelings and hyperbole holding more importance than truth.

I don't think it's going to lead to good outcomes.

 

[Zeberdi]

It is violence, with no reason or justification. But @wellquickwoody has identified something here that needs to be put forward. And I'm with him on that.

My point remains that, whilst the far right may approve of what they see, and have stirred it up, I am not convinced that this is a political thing in it's application. The labeling needs to stop- excepting that of thuggery and mindless vandals. To say 'far right violence' is to simplify a deeper ailment within society.

I‘m not disagreeing with that - think pretty much everyone on this thread has identified that there is a proportion of the electorate (ex-conservative Reform UK supporters mostly) who believe that their concerns about immigration etc were not/are not being addressed/listened to.

However, most of us also rightly refuse to conflate that section of the electorate’s anxieties and concerns with what is happening on the streets or suggest that those thugs are ‘representing’ them.

Personally, I don’t think marauding neo-nazis terrorising members of the British public and engaging in very serious criminal behaviour have any place in the same conversation as those that have legitimate concerns about the impact of high levels of immigration - I actually find it rather distasteful this dialogue is even going on in the same discussion about an attack that less than a week ago saw 3 children stabbed to death and a massive online backlash at Muslims and asylum seekers.

Fortunately, the majority of people who feel disenfranchised by the Tory or Labour Governments will want to distance themselves as much as possible from the far right who are clearly behind organising these riots (not ‘protests’).

 

[ElectricNaz]

Haven't read any of this thread. So this comment is based on the title.

Anyone who riots anywhere is a pathetic scumbag and tbf they should be hanged. Who in their right mind thinks "somethings happened, let's go and burn a police car and steal a load of clobber". It's so weird and those people will never contribute anything to society and no amount of public funds will make them better people. It is genuinely very very weird.

Now ill go back and read the thread, maybe. Prob not.

There's no excuse. They've gone out to cause damage and nick stuff. It's pathetic, and chavvy and scummy. Hang them (if proven on video and it's doubtless) because keeping them alive costs us money. Pathetic people with nothing better to do

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Kier Starmer is to blame for this. His speech was so badly judged. No recognition at all of the reasonable worries a lot of people have, just an attack on their right to protest. Seems more bothered about defending the perpetrators than our children.

I bet you’ve been utterly desperate to pin something on Sir Kier Starmer for the past 4 weeks after your beloved goons were wiped out. And this post is exactly this, utterly desperate.

 

[wellquickwoody]

I wouldn't use the term 'far right'. It is a political term and can be used in an expedient way. The character traits, convictions and emotional responses of individuals exist in another dimension. People cannot be defined by a political ideology, despite this being the only way that many delineate within society. It is an outworking of the struggle for identity. Or more, perhaps, a desire to identify others. If I placed 100 quotes from Hitler on here, without credit, and asked how many folk believed were fair and accurate, nearly everyone would agree at least a small percentage of them. This is because humans are far more complex than a political description can contain them. A person who despises other races and subscribes to a belief in superior culture may also subscribe to Keynsian policy, support public ownership, and believe in a more even distribution of wealth. It is not, for the most part, a left v right thing.

You say that the woman in the post below no doubt feels her concerns are brushed aside and ignored. I would suggest that she may be confused as to what her concerns are and is perhaps swept up in the 'two minute hate'. This is not to suggest she is a bigot in any way, and Mike Stuchberry's response is merely and endorsement of my opening paragraph. Many in society have concerns about it's direction, but I, like many, would argue that we live in the most enlightened, compassionate and free thinking society since, well, I've only been around for 50 odd years.

If those attending these gatherings were asked why they were demonstrating the answers would vary, as would their solutions. But the fact remains that the overwhelming majority of folk are not seeing fit to be a part of it. This is not out of a sense of powerlessness, but more that the forces behind these gatherings are seen as malevolent. And that would be correct.

The question I would ask you, and remember I defended a post of yours last night despite me feeling we have different takes on a lot of things (yet probably have mostly common ground on vales and standards), is what are your concerns of Mr & Mrs Average that you feel need to be aired ? I say that to begin the mild discourse you seek. I think all of us are a lot closer than we think.

My concerns are simple. From afar it seems the UK is pulling itself apart, and it is still my country of birth, my nationality, and my emotional home. Of course I still have many friends and family there too.

I see civil disorder, I see an ever more isolated country trying to come to terms with its new found ‘freedoms’. The actual participants in the rioting are doing no good, they only do harm. The likes of Farage and Robinson are not working to improve the UK, they work only to improve their own lot in life. But I don’t believe that by demonising many uninvolved folk that things will get better, the complete opposite will happen in my view.

I would love to see the UK rejoin the EU, but that would be to trample all over the views of a majority vote at the time. The remainers, mostly centrists and socialists need to accept the democratically expressed views of the referendum for a few more years yet, and stop insulting and criticising those who voted for it. They also need to learn to accept that not everyone has the same opinion, and that to be worried about the effects of immigration does not automatically deserve labelling as fascist/racist/gammon/nazi/extreme right. Tolerance by the majority will rub off onto the minorities.

 

[sydney]

It is violence, with no reason or justification. But @wellquickwoody has identified something here that needs to be put forward. And I'm with him on that.

My point remains that, whilst the far right may approve of what they see, and have stirred it up, I am not convinced that this is a political thing in it's application. The labeling needs to stop- excepting that of thuggery and mindless vandals. To say 'far right violence' is to simplify a deeper ailment within society.

The general consensus seems to be that people joining the protests are not far right at all , more likely concerned citizens who have had enough , in Ireland Catholics and Protestants have protested together , something unheard of until now , the police have apparently provoked reactions from protesters , something which the pro Palestine , BLM and Antifa protesters are spared ......it really is a thoroughly toxic environment at the moment , the latest import to the position of PM seems to be an absolute flake , meanwhile Brighton council will supply extra dustbins for the Pride events in the coming days ....fabulous , if Mel Brooks , the teams from League of Gentleman and Little Britain , Ken Loach and James Herbert put their heads together i don't think they could come up with a more f***ed up scenario to play out , i think a lot of Brits have turned the other cheek and laughed things off for too long and have now had enough , good mate of mine lives in Leigh on Sea , gangs of Africans roaming the streets with knives and machetes ...?? wtf...!!

I bet you’ve been utterly desperate to pin something on Sir Kier Starmer for the past 4 weeks after your beloved goons were wiped out. And this post is exactly this, utterly desperate.

Its what it looks like from afar i'm afraid.

 

[Eeyore]

I‘m not disagreeing with that - think pretty much everyone on this thread has identified that there is a proportion of the electorate (ex-conservative Reform UK supporters mostly) who believe that their concerns about immigration etc were not/are not being addressed/listened to.

I think it's a lot for than just ex Tory and Reformm voters

However, most of us also rightly refuse to conflate that section of the electorate’s anxieties and concerns with what is happening on the streets or suggest that those thugs are ‘representing’ them.

I think that's correct. Most folk separate the two. Only the extreme voices are heard at both ends. Hence my desire to see what the debate looks like when the wings are clipped. I don't think you are saying anything different to the point I and others are making. Hence me saying to Woody that we are closer than we think.

Personally, I don’t think marauding neo-nazis terrorising members of the British public and engaging in very serious criminal behaviour have any place in the same conversation as those that have legitimate concerns about the impact of high levels of immigration - I actually find it rather distasteful this dialogue is even going on in the same discussion about an attack that less than a week saw 3 children stabbed to death and a massive online backlash at Muslims and asylum seekers.

Yes again. But they are a minority and occupy the headlines. But such actions would.

Fortunately, the majority of people who feel disenfranchised by the Tory or Labour Governments will want to distance themselves as much as possible from the far right who are clearly behind organising these riots (not ‘protests’).

Again, yes. Much established point.

 

[Nobby]

Kier Starmer is to blame for this. His speech was so badly judged. No recognition at all of the reasonable worries a lot of people have, just an attack on their right to protest. Seems more bothered about defending the perpetrators than our children.

You’re going on ignore.

Any prat can make a graph.

Always thought it was inaccurate

 

[Chicken Run]

You’re going on ignore.

Good luck with that evolution

 

[BadFish]

My concerns are simple. From afar it seems the UK is pulling itself apart, and it is still my country of birth, my nationality, and my emotional home. Of course I still have many friends and family there too.

I see civil disorder, I see an ever more isolated country trying to come to terms with its new found ‘freedoms’. The actual participants in the rioting are doing no good, they only do harm. The likes of Farage and Robinson are not working to improve the UK, they work only to improve their own lot in life. But I don’t believe that by demonising many uninvolved folk that things will get better, the complete opposite will happen in my view.

I would love to see the UK rejoin the EU, but that would be to trample all over the views of a majority vote at the time. The remainers, mostly centrists and socialists need to accept the democratically expressed views of the referendum for a few more years yet, and stop insulting and criticising those who voted for it. They also need to learn to accept that not everyone has the same opinion, and that to be worried about the effects of immigration does not automatically deserve labelling as fascist/racist/gammon/nazi/extreme right. Tolerance by the majority will rub off onto the minorities.

When would you say was a reasonable amount of time to revisit the EU question and allow the British public to evaluate how Brexit has gone and if it was in hindsight neither what was promised nor a good idea?

 

[Eeyore]

My concerns are simple. From afar it seems the UK is pulling itself apart, and it is still my country of birth, my nationality, and my emotional home. Of course I still have many friends and family there too.

I would, in some re-assurance, tell you that it is more the headline makers and the extreme voices in open media that give that impression. The rest of us are still tutting, making tea, fretting over the weather and complaining when Match of the Day don't say enough nice things about Brighton.

I see civil disorder,

That's probably more to do with coked up PPF characters and some of their opponents who in age of 'identity' politics have chosen an erosive one. Fighters gonna fight. But very few, as a percentage of the population get involved in such things.

I see an ever more isolated country trying to come to terms with its new found ‘freedoms’.

Maybe less than you think. The media is your main source and much of the media is pure poison.

The actual participants in the rioting are doing no good, they only do harm. The likes of Farage and Robinson are not working to improve the UK, they work only to improve their own lot in life.

Too true, and they feed the insecurities of some folk and are the smack of those who cause grief.

But I don’t believe that by demonising many uninvolved folk that things will get better, the complete opposite will happen in my view.

Indeed. It's why discussion about the direction of national policy needs to involve the great majority, not those who make the headlines.

I would love to see the UK rejoin the EU, but that would be to trample all over the views of a majority vote at the time.

It would indeed. I think Starmer was right to make his speech to the European leaders about the UK's desire to work closely with it's European counterparts though. It felt like we finally had an adult in the room.

The remainers, mostly centrists and socialists need to accept the democratically expressed views of the referendum for a few more years yet, and stop insulting and criticising those who voted for it.

That's right. Although, again, Starmer has never done that. (These last two points are not an expression of fawning support for him though, I didn't vote for him because I felt he had been following headlines to court popularity- his a very good statesman though)

They also need to learn to accept that not everyone has the same opinion, and that to be worried about the effects of immigration does not automatically deserve labelling as fascist/racist/gammon/nazi/extreme right.

Yes, a point I'm trying to steer this thread towards. I think all of us believe the rioters are unworthy citizens. But the wider worries and concerns folk have can be addressed without giving credence to low life activists.

Tolerance by the majority will rub off onto the minorities.

I don't fully accept that point. I think society will always have insecure extremes.

 

[Nobby]

Good luck with that evolution

You what, you what, you what,

 

[Nobby]

Just wondering. Serious question.

Has any senior member of the Reform Party come out and condemned the violence yet?

 

[wellquickwoody]

When would you say was a reasonable amount of time to revisit the EU question and allow the British public to evaluate how Brexit has gone and if it was in hindsight neither what was promised nor a good idea?

Not really our call is it. What was it, nearly 50 years in? Just to give it a chance to work or fail, maybe 10 years.

Expecting next comments of ‘is it not already failing?’, ’how bad does it need to be?’ etc e5c

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

I‘m not disagreeing with that - think pretty much everyone on this thread has identified that there is a proportion of the electorate (ex-conservative Reform UK supporters mostly) who believe that their concerns about immigration etc were not/are not being addressed/listened to.

However, most of us also rightly refuse to conflate that section of the electorate’s anxieties and concerns with what is happening on the streets or suggest that those thugs are ‘representing’ them.

Personally, I don’t think marauding neo-nazis terrorising members of the British public and engaging in very serious criminal behaviour have any place in the same conversation as those that have legitimate concerns about the impact of high levels of immigration - I actually find it rather distasteful this dialogue is even going on in the same discussion about an attack that less than a week saw 3 children stabbed to death and a massive online backlash at Muslims and asylum seekers.

Fortunately, the majority of people who feel disenfranchised by the Tory or Labour Governments will want to distance themselves as much as possible from the far right who are clearly behind organising these riots (not ‘protests’).

Spot on! Only to add that the backlash on Muslims and asylum seekers is unjustified……

 

[BadFish]

Not really our call is it. What was it, nearly 50 years in? Just to give it a chance to work or fail, maybe 10 years.

Expecting next comments of ‘is it not already failing?’, ’how bad does it need to be?’ etc e5c

Nope not our call, I didn't even vote in the original referendum.

For me, 50 years seems reasonable, except when one considers the lies and misinformation perpetrated by the leave campaign (The Cambridge Analytica scandal alone would be enough for me) and the closeness of the vote would suggest that a shorter timeframe was more appropriate.

Surely, there is enough data and evidence to suggest that the country has changed its mind about Brexit?

FWIW I don't consider this as an insult or criticism of those who voted to leave at the time, they did so based on the information they were presented with at the time in good faith. If I was one of those voters though, I would be asking for another crack as soon as it transpired that the information I was given was incorrect.

 

[franks brother]

We need more Darren's telling the truth

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

The general consensus seems to be that people joining the protests are not far right at all , more likely concerned citizens who have had enough , in Ireland Catholics and Protestants have protested together , something unheard of until now , the police have apparently provoked reactions from protesters , something which the pro Palestine , BLM and Antifa protesters are spared ......it really is a thoroughly toxic environment at the moment , the latest import to the position of PM seems to be an absolute flake , meanwhile Brighton council will supply extra dustbins for the Pride events in the coming days ....fabulous , if Mel Brooks , the teams from League of Gentleman and Little Britain , Ken Loach and James Herbert put their heads together i don't think they could come up with a more f***ed up scenario to play out , i think a lot of Brits have turned the other cheek and laughed things off for too long and have now had enough , good mate of mine lives in Leigh on Sea , gangs of Africans roaming the streets with knives and machetes ...?? wtf...!!

Its what it looks like from afar i'm afraid.

Change your glasses and change your mates by the sounds of it. This will end up just like the twats Jan 6 when they’ll start crying and saying ‘we were fooled’.

 

[Seagull27]

The reasonable majority on the Right need to start making the case for reducing immigration in a sensible, democratic way. Remove the emotive side from it and don't demonise any minority groups (which leads to accusations of racism) and tell us what the issues are, and more importantly, what solutions there are, as so far I haven't seen anything practical suggested (hint: sending them all to Rwanda was not practical nor reasonable, and it certainly wasn't economically astute).

Ultimately they need to separate the argument from the thugs and the rabble rousers, as the anti-immigration movement is primarily associated with them at the moment.

Funnily enough, that's the same thing that those concerned about climate change have been told about XR/JSO - present arguments and solutions in a democratic way, removed from the 'far-left' protestors.

And there's the real irony: if you're concerned about increasing UK immigration levels, your first target should be to tackle climate change.