[Politics] Protests/rioting in lots of places

[Triggaaar]

This is the relevant bit,

Sheers had attempted to push through the police cordon, shouting and refusing to move away.

I watched it. I didn't see him attempt to push through the cordon. I did see him refuse to move away, although he was starting to back off when the policeman lost his cool and got his dog to attack.

 

[Ike and Tina Burner]

I watched it. I didn't see him attempt to push through the cordon. I did see him refuse to move away, although he was starting to back off when the policeman lost his cool and got his dog to attack.

I don't think you understand how it works.
Person you agree with = awful police brutality, arrest that officer
Person you don't agree with = Very funny, strong policing, he got what was coming

This works for both the left and the right btw

 

[Bry Nylon]

With respect, genuinely. I think that the current situation is of far more importance than previous 'political' threads. By all means you need to do what you need to do, as mods/admin, but shunting something so crucial into a 'bear pit'/similar serves only to give added credence to the agitators, both here and in the wider community.

@Triggaaar gave the perfect response just a little further up.

It is precisely because this is a serious issue of universal interest that @Bozza and the rest of us have been discussing options for preventing it descending into the usual tribal arguments involving the usual three or four posters.

The idea is let them have their own thread in a segregated area where they can trade insults and post their funny memes and guess what previous usernames they all used to have all day long if they want; and the rest of us who want to debate the issues in a balanced and respectful way can have this thread.

Everybody wins.

 

[Bold Seagull]

When a significant minority group is marginalised it is done with great risks involved. Terms like facist, racist, Neanderthal, moron, knucklehead, scum etc etc are banded around freely without much thought as to their accuracy or their effect. Whilst offering no support in anyway to the actions of those who rioted rather than remembering in Southport, or those who attempt to trash mosques, synagogues and police stations, it should be acknowledged that many people on the right (not far, or extreme) feel utterly disenfranchised. It is what led to Brexit, and it seems those guilty of the marginalisation still have their heads stuck in the sand.

There has been a major increase in the number of foreign nationals arriving on British shores in the last fifteen years, whether they are legitimate migrants, asylum seekers or whatever. When people who have felt uneasy about this (be it fear of change or economic reasons in areas like Lincolnshire) have voiced concerns they have been dismissed as poorly educated, ill informed or worse by those who feel morally superior. Even after the Brexit result there has been a constant diatribe of insulting and patronising comment towards those who voted for it, constantly blaming them for nearly all of the problems in the UK. So even when in an electoral majority many of the voters feel vilified and ignored by the so called educated classes and politicians.

Significant minority groups need yo be listened to, but as Brexit showed, this group are more than a ’minority’. They are an undeniable factor in British culture and politics. Forget Farage and Robinson, they are just opportunists jumping onto a passing bandwagon and then trying to take the reins. Serious politicians should be listening to the genuine concerns that a sizeable part of the electorate have. This does not mean granting every persons every wish, but more of gaining a feel of how to get the less reactive and inflammatory folk who feel disenfranchised back into the fold of mainstream politics.

Basically it would be foolish to continue to dismiss and ignore the feelings of a sizeable chunk of the population as it leads to what is happening now. Less inflammatory and dismissive language is required from all sides in an attempt to find common goals. This needs to happen in big politics, but also should start being practised by the community at large, especially online. Even those in positions of so called authority should perhaps ’moderate’ their tone.

Sadly Brexit was a big fat lie. People who fell for it no doubt feel sensitive that this is now essentially come to pass.

The EU was never a barrier to controlling our borders.

Ironically what you are saying is the right are disenfranchised by 14 years of right wing government, right wing decisions like Brexit, and right wing politics, including a disastrous budget.

And we’re supposed to believe that the violence and rioting we’re seeing is because the moderates weren’t nice enough in internet posts.

I hope you will be heeding your own advice. You’ve never been shy in responding in kind to anyone you don’t agree with. I look forward to the new restrained moderated Well Quick Woody.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

With respect, genuinely. I think that the current situation is of far more importance than previous 'political' threads. By all means you need to do what you need to do, as mods/admin, but shunting something so crucial into a 'bear pit'/similar serves only to give added credence to the agitators, both here and in the wider community.

Agreed. This feels like a potential turning point. We are in the cusp of something, the question is can we step away from the precipice or can disaster be avoided.

 

[Berty23]

In legal proceedings what went before, extreme violence on repeat, will be very relevant. The police aren’t emotionless punchbags. In the moment one reacted with violence back.

The virtue signallers and police haters (one admits that he his) all disappeared when the full story emerged. Turns out the race card was baloney too.

If a copper kicked a rioting fascist who’d been part of a family smashing cowards punches into the skull of a copper, there would not have been a mass nsc pile on.

Yes there would.

What went on before is irrelevant once the person has been tasered and can’t move it is his job not to use excessive force. Ffs. I have friends in special forces and the marines and they are trained similarly to coppers to have a switch. You have to be able to go from extreme violence (in SF and marine case) to stopping immediately as soon as the threat is neutralised. In this case this happened once the bloke was incapacitated in the floor.

Let’s see what happens. I will be amazed if there are not extreme disciplinary consequences and potentially criminal charges. Just as with the current riots police are there to enforce the law not dish out their own justice.

 

[Triggaaar]

I don't think you understand how it works.

Well that's a given.

Person you agree with = awful police brutality, arrest that officer
Person you don't agree with = Very funny, strong policing, he got what was coming

Personally I wasn't thinking the officer should be arrested, suspended etc, I just didn't rejoice in seeing the video.

Much like that Chelsea idiot who was gobbing off to the West Ham fans, when one of them knocked him out. Yes the Chelsea fan was an idiot asking for trouble, and no he shouldn't have been surprised to be punched. But that doesn't mean I condone what the West Ham fan did. I feel similarly (not the same) about the officer with the dog. It wasn't necessary (IMO).

 

[birthofanorange]

@Triggaaar gave the perfect response just a little further up.

It is precisely because this is a serious issue of universal interest that @Bozza and the rest of us have been discussing options for preventing it descending into the usual tribal arguments involving the usual three or four posters.

The idea is let them have their own thread in a segregated area where they can trade insults and post their funny memes and guess what previous usernames they all used to have all day long if they want; and the rest of us who want to debate the issues in a balanced and respectful way can have this thread.

Everybody wins.

Understood.

 

[Eeyore]

Bollocks. Stop being an apologist for their behaviour. They ARE scum, and their actions prove it.

He's not being an apologist for them, and the person replying to you is a remainer and, if I have to be politically aligned, slightly left of centre.

Your reply in itself highlights the problem being raised.

I have no problem with immigration. This country was built on it. It's important to our economy and the welfare of the nation. I don't like it when immigrants are treated as if they have been given an undue honour. The last Conservative government were responsible for far more anti-immigrant sentiment than even some on here afford them. It was shocking to watch. That's before we even get to the media.

Conversely, there are times when the impact of immigration can have a negative affect. We have seen this in many places. I don't personally believe that multi-culturalism works as well as is told. We don't really have a multi-cultural society as much as we have a plural form of mono-culturalism. You in your small corner and I in mine. For the most part this sits at ease, but does create separate societies within a society. There then comes a time when those cultures do start to have differences about the ways and practices of existence. I always think of what happened in Batley as an example. The time when a mother was forced to go to a mosque to apologise for her autistic son scuffing a Koran. It was a flashpoint. And it happens more than you think.

There is a difference between racism, 'Enger-land' thuggery and flag shagging, beer bellied, football hooligans roaming our streets and a quiet concern on behalf of some folk that there may be a few uncomfortable questions that do need asking. The two are separate. And for as long as folk decide this is political issue and not a social one and thus categorise each other in the most disparaging way, only the extremes will hold the debate. And thus it is.

I would never vote for 'Reform'. But I would listen and ask questions to those who did. To find out their worries and concerns. Talking is better than shouting. And being conciliatory does not mean embracing extremists whose only goal is to hate and bring discord. They are two separate things and should be treated as such. Most folk sit in the crossfire of all this. It is their views that should be heard.

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Sadly Brexit was a big fat lie. People who fell for it no doubt feel sensitive that this is now essentially come to pass.

The EU was never a barrier to controlling our borders.

Ironically what you are saying is the right are disenfranchised by 14 years of right wing government, right wing decisions like Brexit, and right wing politics, including a disastrous budget.

And we’re supposed to believe that the violence and rioting we’re seeing is because the moderates weren’t nice enough in internet posts.

I hope you will be heeding your own advice. You’ve never been shy in responding in kind to anyone you don’t agree with. I look forward to the new restrained moderated Well Quick Woody.

Brexit happened because of some of concerns that were seemingly unheeded. It is not right to think that this is simply a British problem. If it were then Germany, France and Italy amongst others wouldn't have a similar problem to ours. Most of the same factors exist across most of Europe brexit or no brexit.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

I don't think you understand how it works.
Person you agree with = awful police brutality, arrest that officer
Person you don't agree with = Very funny, strong policing, he got what was coming

This works for both the left and the right btw

For what it's worth, there have been plenty of protests that I'd guess are from vaguely my side of the political spectrum, where I've watched people whining about excessive force or whatever and I've thought "piss off mate".

There are plenty of protests and plenty of big events with lots of people which go by with minimal trouble. You want to give it large and kick up a fuss with riot police and dogs? Deal with the consequences.

 

[birthofanorange]

He's not being an apologist for them, and the person replying to you is a remainer and, if I have to be politically aligned, slightly left of centre.

Your reply in itself highlights the problem being raised.

I have no problem with immigration. This country was built on it. It's important to our economy and the welfare of the nation. I don't like it when immigrants are treated as if they have been given an undue honour. The last Conservative government were responsible for far more anti-immigrant sentiment than even some on here afford them. It was shocking to watch. That's before we even get to the media.

Conversely, there are times when the impact of immigration can have a negative affect. We have seen this in many places. I don't personally believe that multi-culturalism works as well as is told. We don't really have a multi-cultural society as much as we have a plural form of mono-culturalism. You in your small corner and I in mine. For the most part this sits at ease, but does create separate societies within a society. There then comes a time when those cultures do start to have differences about the ways and practices of existence. I always think of what happened in Batley as an example. The time when a mother was forced to go to a mosque to apologise for her autistic son scuffing a Koran. It was a flashpoint. And it happens more than you think.

There is a difference between racism, 'Enger-land' thuggery and flag shagging, beer bellied, football hooligans roaming our streets and a quite concern on behalf of some folk that there may be a few uncomfortable questions that do need asking. The two are separate. And for as long as folk decide this is political issue and not a social one and thus categorise each other in the most disparaging way, only the extremes will hold the debate. And thus it is.

I would never vote for 'Reform'. But I would listen and ask questions to those who did. To find out their worries and concerns. Talking is better than shouting. And being conciliatory does not mean, embracing extremists who only goal is to hate and bring discord. They are two separate things and should be treated as such. Most folk sit in the crossfire of all this. It is their views that should be heard.

Good post, however we are currently facing the more extreme, rather than those who voice concerns.
That it what needs to be dealt with, swiftly and effectively.

 

[Weststander]

Yes there would.

What went on before is irrelevant once the person has been tasered and can’t move it is his job not to use excessive force. Ffs. I have friends in special forces and the marines and they are trained similarly to coppers to have a switch. You have to be able to go from extreme violence (in SF and marine case) to stopping immediately as soon as the threat is neutralised. In this case this happened once the bloke was incapacitated in the floor.

Let’s see what happens. I will be amazed if there are not extreme disciplinary consequences and potentially criminal charges. Just as with the current riots police are there to enforce the law not dish out their own justice.

The tasering wasn’t a light-switch moment. Shock from the extended assault didn’t dissipate to zero.

The only thing we’ll agree on then is that there will likely be CPS charges. Police disciplinary action after the criminal court.

There was also media talk that the punchers will face no action. I’d be surprised about that.

 

[Triggaaar]

@Triggaaar gave the perfect response just a little further up.

The idea is let them have their own thread in a segregated area where they can trade insults and post their funny memes

 

[wellquickwoody]

Sorry but I don't feel inclined to be nice to racists, and their poor hurty feelings.

Let yourself down there HT, surprising.

 

[wellquickwoody]

What has this minority group got to say to me? I'm listening.
Sorry won't be good enough.
Hardly any are involved with this week's horrendous rioting.

Agreed. But the silence offered by those feeling ignored allows the idiots to feel justified.

 

[Eeyore]

Good post, however we are currently facing the more extreme, rather than those who voice concerns.
That it what needs to be dealt with, swiftly and effectively.

Oh, yes. And I think that very few would disagree that those people indeed should be dealt with. Apart from maybe the rioters themselves.

 

[Bold Seagull]

Brexit happened because of some of concerns that were seemingly unheeded. It is not right to think that this is simply a British problem. If it were then Germany, France and Italy amongst others wouldn't have a similar problem to ours. Most of the same factors exist across most of Europe brexit or no brexit.

Indeed, and discussed on another thread. All the countries you mention have a similar problem:
Pensioners living longer
Negative birth rates
Reliance of economic growth (that goes hand in hand with population growth)

If each of these western governments needs evidence of growth to demonstrate their economic competence - they also need population growth and immigration.

Why else following Brexit has there been so much legal immigration? The Tories have banged on about ‘stopping the boats’ while leaving the harbour open.

Sadly though, blaming immigrants and foreigners is probably as old as human beings forming the first tribes.

 

[BadFish]

Sadly Brexit was a big fat lie. People who fell for it no doubt feel sensitive that this is now essentially come to pass.

The EU was never a barrier to controlling our borders.

Ironically what you are saying is the right are disenfranchised by 14 years of right wing government, right wing decisions like Brexit, and right wing politics, including a disastrous budget.

And we’re supposed to believe that the violence and rioting we’re seeing is because the moderates weren’t nice enough in internet posts.

I hope you will be heeding your own advice. You’ve never been shy in responding in kind to anyone you don’t agree with. I look forward to the new restrained moderated Well Quick Woody.

The years of austerity are always overlooked when considering the root of people's feelings in the lead-up to Brexit.

An interesting notion in James O'Brien's book was that in the lead up to the referendum, Cameron was hamstrung in his campaigning because he couldn't tell people the actual reason they were struggling because he was behind it.

Another statisitc mentioned was the meteoric rise of the importance of immigration to the British people, it was way down the priorities list for the electorate in the early 2010's (despite, as we are told, Blair 'opened the floodgates' in 1997).

 

[Green Cross Code Man]

Sorry but I don't feel inclined to be nice to racists, and their poor hurty feelings.

That is a fair sentiment. But gnashing of teeth and condemnation aren't enough to solve our problems sadly.

Indeed, and discussed on another thread. All the countries you mention have a similar problem:
Pensioners living longer
Negative birth rates
Reliance of economic growth (that goes hand in hand with population growth)

If each of these western governments needs evidence of growth to demonstrate their economic competence - they also need population growth and immigration.

Why else following Brexit has there been so much legal immigration? The Tories have banged on about ‘stopping the boats’ while leaving the harbour open.

Sadly though, blaming immigrants and foreigners is probably as old as human beings forming the first tribes.

Yep. Immigrants are easy targets.

And no one, because things are such a mess, is thinking about the locust like nature of humanity. We actually need fewer humans on planet earth, not more.