[News] Post Office Scandal -

[Boys 9d]

Does the Post Office still have powers to prosecute without Police involvement?

 

[clapham_gull]

Does the Post Office still have powers to prosecute without Police involvement?

I think it's a bit more complicated than that.

Private Prosecutions

www.gov.uk

I think the Post Office and the RSPCA have now withdrawn from private prosecutions. The issue with the Post Office is that when it undertook prosecutions it was both the "victim" and the "investigator".

This is quite interesting

Private prosecutions after the Post Office debacle (via Passle)

Private criminal prosecutions, those brought in the criminal courts by corporate entities or individuals, have increased in recent years as prosecutions...

insights.doughtystreet.co.uk

 

[tedebear]

Whilst I was aware of the scandal on the snippets we got on the news over the years, the tv drama has really brought it home, and made me look into it more. I am gobsmacked as to how finance people at the post office and or fujitsu, did not speak up themselves. Having worked as an accountant with finance systems for my entire working life, this is incredulous, that books didn't balance and stat accounts even were able to be signed off with journals that essentially wouldn't have balanced between the sub postmasters and the post office...Then even more so that the legal system didn't smell a rat when cases started building up....Just incredible...all of it...Most finance systems on go live have teething issues, but if they aren't closed down and remediated, I would probably have been fired for incompetence rather than blame those people using it and forcing them into a life of misery and in some cases loss of life....Truly staggering...

 

[Giraffe]

Just half way through watching the series. Quite astonishing. The incompetence and totally brazen reluctance to accept there was a problem regardless of the damage it was causing to individuals is quite startling.

What concerns me is that this is probably the tip of the iceberg in terms of incompetence in the public sector. Just dreadful.

 

[kevo]

The associated documentary is also well worth watching and if anything even more hard-hitting:

https://www.itv.com/watch/mr-bates-vs-the-post-office-the-real-story/10a1798/10a1798a0001

 

[Bry Nylon]

The incompetence and totally brazen reluctance to accept there was a problem regardless of the damage it was causing to individuals is quite startling.

What concerns me is that this is probably the tip of the iceberg in terms of incompetence in the public sector. Just dreadful.

Well, quite.

I guess the fact that this was an IT/finance related scandal means at least an indelible and undeniable audit trail exists that will finally help to set the record straight.

But just imagine if there was another public sector service out there, similarly characterised by weak, incompetent leadership and a workplace culture that those in power would rather pretend doesn’t exist than actually address.

Perhaps someone should write a book about it

 

[A mex eyecan]

Well, quite.

I guess the fact that this was an IT/finance related scandal means at least an indelible and undeniable audit trail exists that will finally help to set the record straight.

But just imagine if there was another public sector service out there, similarly characterised by weak, incompetent leadership and a workplace culture that those in power would rather pretend doesn’t exist than actually address.

Perhaps someone should write a book about it

yes, but the book would have to be in the fiction category surely

 

[Bry Nylon]

yes, but the book would have to be in the fiction category surely

Well, yes. Otherwise the person who wrote it might find themselves in all sorts of legal problems that they couldn’t possibly hope to fund.

I imagine.

 

[DJ Chi]

My job is in statistics and probability, and the idea that 700+ independent postmasters would go rogue and start stealing is just so unlikely statistically that it should have raised suspicions elsewhere immediately

 

[GT49er]

My job is in statistics and probability, and the idea that 700+ independent postmasters would go rogue and start stealing is just so unlikely statistically that it should have raised suspicions elsewhere immediately

Exactly - which ,makes the PO's line - "No, it's only you having problems with Horizon" - such a wicked lie it should be punishable by law. Vennels and co. must have known how many were affected, and they must have then actively decided to make bullying and stealing and telling lies official policy.

 

[dejavuatbtn]

I worked in IT for many years, specifying and system testing fairly major computer systems for a major financial institution. Testing was really rigorous and covered every eventuality and it would never go into production until it had been signed off to death.
I suspect that it wasn’t properly specified and tested, and was probably over budget leading to a lot of skimpy testing.
it Is the biggest financial scandal in my lifetime and I can’t comprehend the agony these poor people have been through for so many years. I hope they get down to individual responsibility with all this and that they are named and shamed. As for the CBE given to head honcho - it’s a no brainer that it should be withdrawn.
I hope they get their compensation asap.

 

[beorhthelm]

I worked in IT for many years, specifying and system testing fairly major computer systems for a major financial institution. Testing was really rigorous and covered every eventuality and it would never go into production until it had been signed off to death.
I suspect that it wasn’t properly specified and tested, and was probably over budget leading to a lot of skimpy testing.
it Is the biggest financial scandal in my lifetime and I can’t comprehend the agony these poor people have been through for so many years. I hope they get down to individual responsibility with all this and that they are named and shamed. As for the CBE given to head honcho - it’s a no brainer that it should be withdrawn.
I hope they get their compensation asap.

we know the problem wasnt an IT issue directly, it was with management insistance it was flawless and infallible. they will never get to an individual responsible, except a ceremonial scapegoat, because there were probably hundreds over the years perpetuating and enforcing the entrenched view of the systems' infalibility.

 

[GT49er]

For starters, there's a petition to strip the Vennels woman of her CBE. Pile in!

Post Office Scandal: Strip Paula Vennells of her CBE

I just signed the petition calling on Paula Vennells, the former CEO of the Post Office to be stripped of her CBE. Will you sign too?

you.38degrees.org.uk

 

[tedebear]

we know the problem wasnt an IT issue directly, it was with management insistance it was flawless and infallible. they will never get to an individual responsible, except a ceremonial scapegoat, because there were probably hundreds over the years perpetuating and enforcing the entrenched view of the systems' infalibility.

It was an issue with the the system and its coding, so IT related. It was generating phantom revenue, the second sight report in 2019 pointed this out. The management of the post office dismissed this report, and when it found out the BBC and Private Eye had managed to get a copy, it then ordered Second Sight to end its investigation the day before the report was due to be published and even worse the PO ordered Second Sight to destroy any paperwork it hadn't handed over. Someone leaked the report, so someone in the PO and or the government knew its truth.

Sounded to me (and I guess to many) like the Post Office didn't think it was flawless and infallible, they knew something was wrong and then spent all their effort to cover it up. They knew that the variances were under materiality limit of their external audit by EY (then latterly PWC) and so wouldn't show up in the accounts, so all they had to do was stand firm on their denial. I hope the recent statment by the Police around investigating Fraud turns up some more truths here.

 

[beorhthelm]

It was an issue with the the system and its coding, so IT related. It was generating phantom revenue, the second sight report in 2019 pointed this out. The management of the post office dismissed this report, and when it found out the BBC and Private Eye had managed to get a copy, it then ordered Second Sight to end its investigation the day before the report was due to be published and even worse the PO ordered Second Sight to destroy any paperwork it hadn't handed over. Someone leaked the report, so someone in the PO and or the government knew its truth.

Sounded to me (and I guess to many) like the Post Office didn't think it was flawless and infallible, they knew something was wrong and then spent all their effort to cover it up. They knew that the variances were under materiality limit of their external audit by EY (then latterly PWC) and so wouldn't show up in the accounts, so all they had to do was stand firm on their denial. I hope the recent statment by the Police around investigating Fraud turns up some more truths here.

of course it's IT related, my point is the problems stem from the management. if they'd treated reports more honestly and objectively as bug reports, investigated as anomolies in the software and rechecked audit trails, they might have seen that errors where occuring and responded appropriately. that cant be accounted for in system testing. as i recall (from IT press over the decade) there were problems with the audit software and supposed restrictions to modify data. then there was procedural issue with how accounts were reconciled. these are operational and design matters, the software was doing as it was told but the process itself flawed.

someone senior probably did know it was flawed, however the pitch was it was supposed to be secure and incorruptible, and that perception pervaded investigations. most involved, the auditors and legal people, wouldn't be technical and just followed along with that policy.

 

[thejackal]

Simon BLAGden?!?

You couldn't make it up!

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Oh yes. HMRC has had a succession of IT disasters going back decades.

About ten years ago I had a meeting with senior, head office staff from HMRC. One of the issues we discussed was HMRC's failing IT systems. During the course of the conversation HMRC said "we are beholden to our IT suppliers"! I couldn't believe it so I asked him to repeat it. He did. I said "but you are the customer, how can you be "beholden" to a supplier / contractor?". HMRC just shrugged.

As someone that worked for Capita - who were a supplier of systems to HMRC - I call the HMRC statement out as utter bollocks. HMRC could never agree what they actually wanted from a system and then wondered why changes cost them money. Very similar to the NHS project EDS won to bring in a single email system years ago - it failed because every NHS trust fought for their own view of how the system should work so in the end no solution could be built. Cost millions of taxpayers money. At the end of the day government departments are useless at IT projects because of in fighting and that civil servents don't have any idea about profit and loss.

 

[kevo]

---

Exactly - which ,makes the PO's line - "No, it's only you having problems with Horizon" - such a wicked lie it should be punishable by law. Vennels and co. must have known how many were affected, and they must have then actively decided to make bullying and stealing and telling lies official policy.

And that line made them all feel isolated - as if it *must* be their fault, as no-one else was having issues. Truly despicable.

 

[tedebear]

Exactly - which ,makes the PO's line - "No, it's only you having problems with Horizon" - such a wicked lie it should be punishable by law. Vennels and co. must have known how many were affected, and they must have then actively decided to make bullying and stealing and telling lies official policy.

This to me is the staggering heart of it. Had this happened in the corporate world, I suspect there would have been allegations of fraud, corporate mismanagement, bullying, and the list would go on...

 

[Talby]

of course it's IT related, my point is the problems stem from the management. if they'd treated reports more honestly and objectively as bug reports, investigated as anomolies in the software and rechecked audit trails, they might have seen that errors where occuring and responded appropriately. that cant be accounted for in system testing. as i recall (from IT press over the decade) there were problems with the audit software and supposed restrictions to modify data. then there was procedural issue with how accounts were reconciled. these are operational and design matters, the software was doing as it was told but the process itself flawed.

someone senior probably did know it was flawed, however the pitch was it was supposed to be secure and incorruptible, and that perception pervaded investigations. most involved, the auditors and legal people, wouldn't be technical and just followed along with that policy.

I started at the top but then the dodgy culture permeated through the PO. Bottom line on all of this is that the Post Office couldn’t prove theft as they actually couldn’t find any money in subpostmasters bank accounts etc. One investigation included asking a happily married man if he was keeping a mistress and if he was giving the money to her. Just ridiculous.

There was no trail of money going anywhere at all….just a loss on the system. They took people to court, pursued them for money the didn’t owe and at no point did anyone think it was a bit weird that 700+ people who were generally seen to be pillars of the community suddenly became criminals. And criminals that were so clever that neither they or the PO could find the missing money!!!