[Albion] Player ratings - West Ham (H)

[aolstudios]

Ryan - 7
Bong - 7.5
Bruno - 7
Dunk - 7
Duffy - 8
Propper - 7 - He'll be more appreciated while he's out. Quiet class, every game
Kayal - 8.5 - MoM
Ali - 6 - Bright, willing start but seemed to lose all confidence after Bong shouted at him
AK - 6 - mixed bag of superb & near disastrously sloppy
March - 6
Murray - 8 - Absolute nuisance

Izquierdo - 7.5 - Another level, even when not match fit
Locadia - 7 - Put himself about well. Deserved his 'goal'
Bissouma - 6.5

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Those stats are taken from Whoscored.com. Sites like that pay people to check such metrics. So you can debate them all you want, but your speculation about him giving the ball away is no more concrete than the information provided by a site whose business it is to actually record these things. And, contrary to popular belief, Kayal gave the ball away more than Propper last night.

As for your second point, it's a fair one to a degree. But ask yourself this - how many different midfield roles has Propper played since the start of the season? I count four, at least. He's played the role he played last season as the left of centre midfielder but with license to move forward, he's played as the sitter yesterday and against City, he's played as the right sided central midfielder against Saints in the first half where all 3 of our midfielders looked utterly lost and confused, and he's played in the Gross role in the second half against Saints where he was much improved. In this time, we've played four of last season's top 6 in games where we are inevitably going to have less of the ball. He's also played alongside a mixture of players in central roles, with Kayal, Stephens, Gross, Bissouma and March, where he's been the only consistent starting player centrally. Are you surprised he's not at his best level? The guy probably doesn't know whether he's coming or going - he must be so confused about his role in this side!

And you compare his average passing stats this season to last season (hilariously, you debate the accuracy of data from last night's match but then use data to make your own point...) yet your point seems a tad invalid on the basis that you're using lower passing stats to criticise Propper, despite the fact that Kayal was the MOTM last night despite making less passes! Which is it? What side of the fence are you sitting on?

As to your Bridcutt comparison, they're unfair for a few reasons. 1) Propper usually plays a more advanced role than Bridcutt ever did - a better comparison would've been Bridcutt for Stephens. 2) Bridcutt never proved himself capable at Premier League level, something Propper has already done. 3) Bridcutt played at a lower level in a team that was built to dominate possession - this side has, this season at least, operated very very deep and defensively for much of the season and often had very little of the ball, so the comparison really is mute.

What I'd also ask is why our midfielders as a whole are struggling at the moment. Is it simply because we've had a tough start? Is it because they've lacked an outball when they have had it to push us up the pitch? Is it because we've playing more direct from the back? Is it because we've missed Stephens for a few games? Or is it a tactical issue that has come from CHs constant chopping and changing at the start of the season? Or maybe, is it a mixture of all of them? Either way, we've got 8 points from 8 games after a relatively tough start to the season and Propper has had a very consistent role in that as the only midfield player who's always started.

Ok, I'm not here to keep having a go at Propper, but I'll address a few of your points above

- I've never ever complained about Propper giving the ball away. He's very tidy in possession. I complain that hes been completely anonymous for large parts of four games now

- I know the stats are from Whoscored - I find it very hard to believe they can get that correct for 22 players, who they don't know that well, simultaneously in real-time in a high-speed game. In fact I know they make mistakes because someone else pointed out that Propper was listed at 25 passes in the Spurs game, when I watched him myself and the real figure was in single figures.

- Regardless, you're using these stats to suggest that Propper had a better game than Kayal, which is by some distance a huge at contrast with what almost everyone else on here thought about the game, so again its really hard to take those stats at face value

- Nevertheless in the aggregate over the season there is some value in comparing averages, and indeed in comparing the same player with himself from the year before, using the same methods, hence comparing his passes per game from last year to this year shows Propper is down. (Its a bit rich to have a go at me for using data when it was the crux of your argument in the first place....)

- I absolutely agree that the changes in midfield personnel, and mainly the loss of Gross, has affected him. You can use it to give him a pass, I understand that, but to me it also demonstrates that he isn't perhaps as good as we thought.

- and overall, we have been totally over-run in midfield for large parts of four consecutive games. Whether or not it is Propper's natural game to get stuck in, whether or not he is out of form, whether or not the changes around him have affected him, whether or not he is being played in the right position - and all of those are probably true to some degree - his anonymity is standing out and I think a change is needed

 

[Petee]

Ryan 6

Bruno 8
Duffy 8
Dunk 8
Bong 6

Kayal 8.5
Propper 7

Knockaert 7.5
March 5
Jahanbaksh 6

Murray 8

Izquierdo 7.5
Locadia 6
Bissouma 6

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

Me? I love a good stat. But a stat alone is often meaningless. Ok, Kayal played and completed more passes. But what sort of passes were they? Dunk and Duffy could easily up their passing stats by playing the ball back and forth to each other while our opponents sit back happy we're no threat as our defensive duo retain position on the edge of our D. How often do you see players instead of crossing the ball to create a chance for us, choose to play a simple pass to a team mate right next to them who puts the cross in instead - right there one player gets another completed pass, the other gets an incomplete pass. One of them took responsibility and tried to make something happen, the other just improved his stats.

They also don't show what becomes of a misplaced pass. Did the West Ham player who intercepted a loose pass then lose the ball or did he play a teammate in for a threat on goal?

Number passes, number of passes completed, really need context. Kayal provided an assist. That's surely more important than how many passes he made? Neither of them lost possession resulting in a goal for west ham, surely that's more important than pass completion %?

All fair, but missing the point in this case, particularly as I highlighted many of your points i.e. the assist, earlier in the thread. We clearly have a sitter in our side (usually Stephens, but on Friday it was Propper) whose role it is to recycle possession rather than be penetrative with it. In such instances, keeping it simple and keeping the ball is the key and Propper did that on Friday.

Now the only reason I've brought the passing stats up is because there's been overriding feedback from those on here who seem to believe that Propper gave the ball away a lot and was anonymous. That simply isn't the case. He gave it away twice and only made fewer tackles than Kayal, compared to Kayal who gave it away more frequently from less passes and made one more tackle. Now Kayal inevitably had a more forward thinking role, so I understand why this would happen and I'm not bashing Kayal in the slightest - I've stated throughout this thread and in my match ratings that I thought he was MOTM. I'm merely sticking up for Propper and identifying that he gave the ball away the least of anyone in our side yet seems to have got a lot of criticism for giving it away frequently, which is rubbish. I've also stuck up for him in the sense that his midfield role has changed more than anyone else's - you can't expect someone to be consistently excellent if you're always asking for something different from them.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

All fair, but missing the point in this case, particularly as I highlighted many of your points i.e. the assist, earlier in the thread. We clearly have a sitter in our side (usually Stephens, but on Friday it was Propper) whose role it is to recycle possession rather than be penetrative with it. In such instances, keeping it simple and keeping the ball is the key and Propper did that on Friday.

Now the only reason I've brought the passing stats up is because there's been overriding feedback from those on here who seem to believe that Propper gave the ball away a lot and was anonymous. That simply isn't the case. He gave it away twice and only made fewer tackles than Kayal, compared to Kayal who gave it away more frequently from less passes and made one more tackle. Now Kayal inevitably had a more forward thinking role, so I understand why this would happen and I'm not bashing Kayal in the slightest - I've stated throughout this thread and in my match ratings that I thought he was MOTM. I'm merely sticking up for Propper and identifying that he gave the ball away the least of anyone in our side yet seems to have got a lot of criticism for giving it away frequently, which is rubbish. I've also stuck up for him in the sense that his midfield role has changed more than anyone else's - you can't expect someone to be consistently excellent if you're always asking for something different from them.

Stats are great, but sometimes it’s what you don’t do. I look at them, but don’t put tremendous stall on them.

Propper was poor on Friday, I accept he was in an unfamiliar position, but he is poor at tackling, and TBH whilst I’ll take you word on the stats re completed passes, I am amazed. Perhaps the misplaced passes were particularly poor.

Arnautovic peeled off the CB’s frequently and I would have anticipated Propper in that ‘soft’ area in front of them but he was rarely there. There were a couple of times he needed to clear the ball, but he dilly-dallied and it got partially blocked.

He was great last year, but Man Utd apart and maybe Fulham is struggling to replicate that form.



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[sussex_guy2k2]

Ok, I'm not here to keep having a go at Propper, but I'll address a few of your points above

- I've never ever complained about Propper giving the ball away. He's very tidy in possession. I complain that hes been completely anonymous for large parts of four games now

- I know the stats are from Whoscored - I find it very hard to believe they can get that correct for 22 players, who they don't know that well, simultaneously in real-time in a high-speed game. In fact I know they make mistakes because someone else pointed out that Propper was listed at 25 passes in the Spurs game, when I watched him myself and the real figure was in single figures.

- Regardless, you're using these stats to suggest that Propper had a better game than Kayal, which is by some distance a huge at contrast with what almost everyone else on here thought about the game, so again its really hard to take those stats at face value

- Nevertheless in the aggregate over the season there is some value in comparing averages, and indeed in comparing the same player with himself from the year before, using the same methods, hence comparing his passes per game from last year to this year shows Propper is down. (Its a bit rich to have a go at me for using data when it was the crux of your argument in the first place....)

- I absolutely agree that the changes in midfield personnel, and mainly the loss of Gross, has affected him. You can use it to give him a pass, I understand that, but to me it also demonstrates that he isn't perhaps as good as we thought.

- and overall, we have been totally over-run in midfield for large parts of four consecutive games. Whether or not it is Propper's natural game to get stuck in, whether or not he is out of form, whether or not the changes around him have affected him, whether or not he is being played in the right position - and all of those are probably true to some degree - his anonymity is standing out and I think a change is needed

Point 1 - you've complained he's been anonymous. Yet statistics prove otherwise. He's been on the ball more than the person that got MOTM and given it away less. That's my only point. Nothing more, and nothing less. You also haven't recognised that, in taking Stephens' role on Friday, it became clear that being tidy in possession and keeping the ball was his MO.

Point 2 - so you don't believe their stats because you're telling me you watched the only him throughout the Spurs game with the specific intent of proving that their stats were wrong? And you're not just saying they were wrong by a little bit, you're arguing that he played less than half of the passes they're claiming? You're doing this whilst using no evidence at all other than your own eyesight? IF this is the case, then I'm sorry but you have a really really weak argument. For example, I watched him also and would imagine he comfortably played that many passes. Also, where did you get the stats that you quoted in your last post from?

Point 3 - no I didn't. I haven't done that in the slightest. Go and see my match ratings. Then read the following posts where I've actually stated that I wasn't saying Propper was better than Kayal.

Point 4 - there is some value in comparing last season to this season. But you're not doing it with any context. We've had a really hard start to the season fixture wise against sides that we have less of the ball against. He's also played four different midfield roles already. He's also played with a lot more midfield partners. He's also missing Gross in front of him to help us retain possession. There are too many contextual factors that you're just ignoring.

Point 5 - honestly, this is just a nonsensical point based on nothing but your prejudice against him. I'm not giving him a pass just because of Gross - there are lots of reasons which I've explained for why I think his form has been a bit up and down (although I didn't think he was bad on Friday at all). I think, if anything, it shows just how good he is that he's the player that CH keeps using as the consistent fulcrum in our midfield and I think it shows just how highly he rates him that he thinks he can do 4 different midfield jobs. I also think that that lack of consistency in team selection and tactics is hampering him. But overall the point is that I don't think he's been anywhere near as bad as you're making out.

Point 6 - you're right to have your opinion. But you've done absolutely nothing to back it up or prove why Propper should be the one suffering that change by being taken out of the side. I get it, you don't like him as a player. You wouldn't be being this persistently ignorant about it if you were more open minded. So let's just leave it there because despite the evidence you're clearly not changing your mind, and you've not given me a single reason why I should change my opinion that Propper is a crucial part of this side.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

He's also missing Gross in front of him to help us retain possession. .

Very good point and perhaps the biggest reason for his drop in form IMO


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[sussex_guy2k2]

Stats are great, but sometimes it’s what you don’t do. I look at them, but don’t put tremendous stall on them.

Propper was poor on Friday, I accept he was in an unfamiliar position, but he is poor at tackling, and TBH whilst I’ll take you word on the stats re completed passes, I am amazed. Perhaps the misplaced passes were particularly poor.

Arnautovic peeled off the CB’s frequently and I would have anticipated Propper in that ‘soft’ area in front of them but he was rarely there. There were a couple of times he needed to clear the ball, but he dilly-dallied and it got partially blocked.

He was great last year, but Man Utd apart and maybe Fulham is struggling to replicate that form.



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So your main critique of him is that he struggled in a role he isn't used to? Also, he made the second most tackles of anyone in our side, behind only Kayal (who actually gave away more free-kicks), so he clearly is tackling, even if you think he's poor at it.

As for taking their word on the stats, are you suggesting I take your word instead? I genuinely came away shocked that people thought he'd been that poor. But maybe his two misplaced passes stood out to you from your seat more than they did to me from mine. But let's be honest, Stephens plays that role usually and he gives the ball away with some regularity in stupid positions, yet no one jumps on his back with the frequency that they're jumping on Propper's.

 

[dazzer6666]

Point 2 - so you don't believe their stats because you're telling me you watched the only him throughout the Spurs game with the specific intent of proving that their stats were wrong? And you're not just saying they were wrong by a little bit, you're arguing that he played less than half of the passes they're claiming? You're doing this whilst using no evidence at all other than your own eyesight? IF this is the case, then I'm sorry but you have a really really weak argument. For example, I watched him also and would imagine he comfortably played that many passes. Also, where did you get the stats that you quoted in your last post from?

There is no chance the stats will be that wrong......perhaps an isolated mistake or two across the whole game, but not that incorrect for a single player. All passes (and everything else on the database) are individually ‘tagged’ by an analyst using special software.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

So your main critique of him is that he struggled in a role he isn't used to? Also, he made the second most tackles of anyone in our side, behind only Kayal (who actually gave away more free-kicks), so he clearly is tackling, even if you think he's poor at it.

As for taking their word on the stats, are you suggesting I take your word instead? I genuinely came away shocked that people thought he'd been that poor. But maybe his two misplaced passes stood out to you from your seat more than they did to me from mine. But let's be honest, Stephens plays that role usually and he gives the ball away with some regularity in stupid positions, yet no one jumps on his back with the frequency that they're jumping on Propper's.

Re Stephens, not really, as I’m critical of him as well, if he plays poorly.

Do the stats say how many tackles he should have won?

In terms of the role, the fact is unfamiliar or not, that is where he’s playing and that’s what my judgement is based on. in rating players/assessing that’s all you can do.

I’m not saying you have to take my word either, as it’s just my opinion.

Do you feel he’s playing as well as last season?



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[Acker79]

Point 1 - you've complained he's been anonymous. Yet statistics prove otherwise.

No they don't. Again, all they show is how many passes he made. When people say Propper is anonymous, they are not saying 'he didn't do anything', but that 'whatever he did doesn't stick out as particularly noteworthy', which goes back to my point about what the passes were being more important than how many of them there are, thus the stat needing context (which is my point, I'm not judging either Kayal or Propper).

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Point 6 - you're right to have your opinion. But you've done absolutely nothing to back it up or prove why Propper should be the one suffering that change by being taken out of the side. I get it, you don't like him as a player. You wouldn't be being this persistently ignorant about it if you were more open minded. So let's just leave it there because despite the evidence you're clearly not changing your mind, and you've not given me a single reason why I should change my opinion that Propper is a crucial part of this side.

Alright, like I said I'm not doing this to get into nasty arguments, in my mind this is just like having a discussion in the pub so please cool the hyperbole . I have no agenda on Davy, I like him and I want him to get some form back. I've offered lots of reasoned thoughts on him in several different threads but you want to treat my thoughts as if I was Mr Burns talking about Barnes, so

I'm basing my opinion right now on having realised I didn't notice him once in the first half against Saints, watching him very closely for the whole game against Spurs and to a certain degree focusing on him in the second half of the West Ham game. Thats all. The player I saw does not match your description of him above, nor those stats on whoscored. For you and me to be on the same page you need to go and do the same, but I don't really recommend watching those four halves of football again

Our central midfield has been really poor this season, only the United game as the exception. I think we can discuss that. For me, I would like to see either Kayal or Bissouma alongside Stephens when he is back. They offer both bite in midfield and box-to-box drive that I think would really complement how we are developing this season. If Propper cannot rediscover the kind of form in closing down players and winning the ball off them, that he showed for example in the Man Utd game last season, then we have a passenger in midfield for most of our games this year. Only those games where we're on top, where Stephens can win the ball on his own and let Propper play is Davy going to be properly effective imo, which is 8-10 home games at best .

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

There is no chance the stats will be that wrong......perhaps an isolated mistake or two across the whole game, but not that incorrect for a single player. All passes (and everything else on the database) are individually ‘tagged’ by an analyst using special software.

Exactly.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

Re Stephens, not really, as I’m critical of him as well, if he plays poorly.

Do the stats say how many tackles he should have won?

In terms of the role, the fact is unfamiliar or not, that is where he’s playing and that’s what my judgement is based on. in rating players/assessing that’s all you can do.

I’m not saying you have to take my word either, as it’s just my opinion.

Do you feel he’s playing as well as last season?



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No I don't. And, as I've stated throughout this thread (inc. my player ratings, I thought Kayal was better than him on Friday). I just think there are a ton of factors that are affecting his performance and I think they need to be put into the context of his performance which, whilst at a slightly lower level than last year, is still of a good level for me (and I'm assuming CH). But the overall discussion started because I debated Propper's poor use of the ball, and compared him to Kayal's use of it, using statistics which are difficult to debate. In that sense I wasn't judging either of their performances, merely pointing out that one actually kept the ball better than the other and was involved in more passes at the same time. Those statistics themselves put to bed the notion that Propper lost the ball frequently, as some on here have suggested. There is no more or less to it than that.

And the stats don't say that, no. At least not the ones I looked at.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

No they don't. Again, all they show is how many passes he made. When people say Propper is anonymous, they are not saying 'he didn't do anything', but that 'whatever he did doesn't stick out as particularly noteworthy', which goes back to my point about what the passes were being more important than how many of them there are, thus the stat needing context (which is my point, I'm not judging either Kayal or Propper).

All your point is saying is that there has to be an outcome to said passes all the time, but football simply doesn't work like that, especially for players playing in that sitting role. Kayal was allowed much more freedom than Propper to get forward, hence his actionable outcome in the goal.

Overall though, being involved in more passes than a teammate and making one less tackle than them suggests they're at least as involved, just in different ways or areas. But the positional differences account for much of the context around those actions and the importance of those actions. I mean you could argue that Kayal's desire to press all over the pitch actually left Propper exposed for much of the game, with March pushed up towards Murray as well. Add that to the fact that WHU had an extra man in midfield anyway, and is it any surprise he struggled to exert more influence on the game?

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

Alright, like I said I'm not doing this to get into nasty arguments, in my mind this is just like having a discussion in the pub so please cool the hyperbole . I have no agenda on Davy, I like him and I want him to get some form back. I've offered lots of reasoned thoughts on him in several different threads but you want to treat my thoughts as if I was Mr Burns talking about Barnes, so

I'm basing my opinion right now on having realised I didn't notice him once in the first half against Saints, watching him very closely for the whole game against Spurs and to a certain degree focusing on him in the second half of the West Ham game. Thats all. The player I saw does not match your description of him above, nor those stats on whoscored. For you and me to be on the same page you need to go and do the same, but I don't really recommend watching those four halves of football again

Our central midfield has been really poor this season, only the United game as the exception. I think we can discuss that. For me, I would like to see either Kayal or Bissouma alongside Stephens when he is back. They offer both bite in midfield and box-to-box drive that I think would really complement how we are developing this season. If Propper cannot rediscover the kind of form in closing down players and winning the ball off them, that he showed for example in the Man Utd game last season, then we have a passenger in midfield for most of our games this year. Only those games where we're on top, where Stephens can win the ball on his own and let Propper play is Davy going to be properly effective imo, which is 8-10 home games at best .

I'm treating your opinions with no hyperbole. If you offer me something worth debating, I'll debate it with you, but you're yet to do that.

You say you watched Propper closely against Spurs yet you missed half of the passes he made. So you clearly didn't watch him THAT closely. We do, however, agree he had a poor first half at Saints (albeit a much improved second half) - much of that was down to yet more tinkering in midfield from CH and Propper being moved into yet another position. Let's be honest, not a single one of our midfielders had a good first half against Saints.

As to your patronising comment about me watching the Saints, Spurs and WHU games to see your view, it's just that - patronising. I saw all of them live, thanks. My opinions on him are based on seeing him live and seeing the context around those performances. Fair enough that you don't rate him/don't think he's playing well at the moment, but our opinions are based on seeing the same games so don't resort to patronising me just because I've pulled your arguments apart so easily - it's not a good look.

I do agree about the midfield as a whole - it's a shame CH keeps altering it. I disagree about Bissouma though - there's a good player in there, but there's such a naivety about him at the moment that I would be surprised to see him breaking consistently into our first 11 this season if all players are fit. He often picks the wrong pass, he's not physically up to the standard yet, he's not at all accurate with his shooting and his passing has been consistently wayward. So whilst he gets fans on our feet when he runs with the ball (as per the end of the first half at Saints), he's a very, very rough diamond at the moment and will need some coaching. In fact, for me at least, he's fourth choice at the moment in those central areas and Propper is miles ahead of him in terms of his development.

As to your last point, I think most of our team are much more effective when we're on top. I don't think sitting deep and ceding possession suits any of our players really, Duffy and Bong aside.

 

[Acker79]

All your point is saying is that there has to be an outcome to said passes all the time, but football simply doesn't work like that, especially for players playing in that sitting role. Kayal was allowed much more freedom than Propper to get forward, hence his actionable outcome in the goal.

My point says no such thing. My point is that stats need context. If a pass has no outcome, tht's perfectly fine. Lots of passes fall into this category. When comparing performances, if one player has 20 passes and only one had a notable outcome, and another has 10 passes and 9 had a notable outcome, which one had the better performance? From those numbers alone you can't say. The number prove nothing.

My point is also that saying a player is anonymous is not the same as saying they did nothing, and as such showing that they did something doesn't counter the idea that they were anonymous.

Overall though, being involved in more passes than a teammate and making one less tackle than them suggests they're at least as involved, just in different ways or areas. But the positional differences account for much of the context around those actions and the importance of those actions. I mean you could argue that Kayal's desire to press all over the pitch actually left Propper exposed for much of the game, with March pushed up towards Murray as well. Add that to the fact that WHU had an extra man in midfield anyway, and is it any surprise he struggled to exert more influence on the game?

And that's a fine argument. But none of that is 'proved' by the totalling of how many passes they made. The total number of passes made means little. It's in the conext of what those passes meant to the game, why those numbers are what they are, etc.

 

[West Upper Seagull]

March 4 Watched as a man ten years older showed him how to run and close down. When Murray caught the keeper March hand his hands on his hips-says it all

Absolutely this ! March was bloody lazy and Murray was putting in the work rate for the 2 of them. He’s simply not contributing anything effective so far this season and is afraid to even make a tackle.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

I'm treating your opinions with no hyperbole. If you offer me something worth debating, I'll debate it with you, but you're yet to do that.

You say you watched Propper closely against Spurs yet you missed half of the passes he made. So you clearly didn't watch him THAT closely. We do, however, agree he had a poor first half at Saints (albeit a much improved second half) - much of that was down to yet more tinkering in midfield from CH and Propper being moved into yet another position. Let's be honest, not a single one of our midfielders had a good first half against Saints.

As to your patronising comment about me watching the Saints, Spurs and WHU games to see your view, it's just that - patronising. I saw all of them live, thanks. My opinions on him are based on seeing him live and seeing the context around those performances. Fair enough that you don't rate him/don't think he's playing well at the moment, but our opinions are based on seeing the same games so don't resort to patronising me just because I've pulled your arguments apart so easily - it's not a good look.

I do agree about the midfield as a whole - it's a shame CH keeps altering it. I disagree about Bissouma though - there's a good player in there, but there's such a naivety about him at the moment that I would be surprised to see him breaking consistently into our first 11 this season if all players are fit. He often picks the wrong pass, he's not physically up to the standard yet, he's not at all accurate with his shooting and his passing has been consistently wayward. So whilst he gets fans on our feet when he runs with the ball (as per the end of the first half at Saints), he's a very, very rough diamond at the moment and will need some coaching. In fact, for me at least, he's fourth choice at the moment in those central areas and Propper is miles ahead of him in terms of his development.

As to your last point, I think most of our team are much more effective when we're on top. I don't think sitting deep and ceding possession suits any of our players really, Duffy and Bong aside.

I don't really get this, half your post you're being aggressive again, and then now and again you cede that he's not playing that well.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

I don't really get this, half your post you're being aggressive again, and then now and again you cede that he's not playing that well.

Because you're being obtuse for no reason and contradicting yourself constantly. Go back to my original challenge of your original post and hopefully that'll give you the context you need. Someone can not be on top form and still be a really valuable part of a side.