[Albion] Player ratings - West Ham (H)

[Coldeanseagull]

I like these threads, it's amazing how many different and alternative games are watched by so many different people across so many parallel universes!
Let's analyse this game.
Wasn't always pretty, defending doggedly, bit slow on the counter attack, players coming back a bit rusty, it was ONLY West Ham, we won 1-0, should've been two.
It would be nice to play fast, expansive football all the time with 80% possession, but I'd take this kind of result all day long if it keeps us in the premier league.
Something big is happening at our club but it's not an overnight thing....I can feel it

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

I dunno, I like my central midfielders to get on the ball now and again, make a tackle, compete for the ball, that kind of thing. Each to their own I suppose. But when the opposiiton have 75% of the ball and you're anonymous in a central midfield being overrun, not its not a sign a of a good game.

Kayal showed him how to play central midfield tonight.

Kayal played and completed less passes (76% of 21 passes) than Propper (92% of 25 passes) tonight. That isn't an opinion - it's a fact. He also completed three tackles, second only to Kayal.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he had his best game, and he obviously didn't create the goal in the way Kayal did, but Propper was the sitter today and Kayal was given more license to push, press and dribble, and that suited Kayal more than Propper who it seems CH is desperate to misuse. The idea that Propper was rubbish tonight, as some suggest, isn't fair. What is probably fair is that we missed Stephens' natural ability in that sitting role to dictate games and pick the right passes into forwards and wide men from deep midfield areas - that isn't a style either Propper or Kayal have in abundance. We became too frantic as a result, often unsure when to slow the game down and when to speed it up - that gave WHU the ability to dictate the game from midfield in a 3v2. It also probably didn't help that March hasn't played that number 10 role and consequently didn't know when to drop in and help them in the way that Gross would do as a more natural player in that position.

 

[Stat Brother]

Bong 11

WHU only have 2 attacking threats and one of them got subbed of because he was getting NOTHING from Gaetan.

 

[tigertim68]

Ryan's kicking was shocking tonight.

Been shocking for the last couple of matches

 

[BN41Albion]

I like these threads, it's amazing how many different and alternative games are watched by so many different people across so many parallel universes!
Let's analyse this game.
Wasn't always pretty, defending doggedly, bit slow on the counter attack, players coming back a bit rusty, it was ONLY West Ham, we won 1-0, should've been two.
It would be nice to play fast, expansive football all the time with 80% possession, but I'd take this kind of result all day long if it keeps us in the premier league.
Something big is happening at our club but it's not an overnight thing....I can feel it

I think last night was different in that first half we were much better than previous gsmes. Still a bit sloppy, but much improved and more positive compared to some of the recent first half performances. I think second half west ham showed their quality and kept us on the back foot, and we naturally retreated to protect our lead. However we were quite careless when we did get possession second half, which invited pressure back on us. I thought we improved again as the half wise on though, especially when Izqueirdo came on

 

[Machiavelli]

Thought for the most part we lack fluidity, I'm not convinced playing three wingers worked. Knockaert seemed to have an off game, AJ kept drifting inside, Solly seemed too scared to ever run onto passes. Bong was his usual self - impressive at stopping them getting past him, but frequently lax in the pass. Bruno seemed to be off his game, probably a little rusty. Ryan's kicking was frequently poor, but made the simple saves when they were asked of him. Kayal was very positive. Propper was solid but unspectacular. Murray worked hard, took his goal well, but looked tired at times.

First half, while West Ham were tidier, they only had two chances of note - Arnautovic's turn and shot which Murray did well to block (Ryan would have been beaten) and Zabaletta coming in unmarked at the far post, but they then overplayed it and the chance went. As untidy as it felt we were, overhitting passes, not reading runs etc, we did look more likely to score. Second half we sat back and let them play a little too much for my liking. I don't expect us to attack non-stop for 90mins, and when we're leading against teams like West Ham they will have periods of dominance, but it felt like we paid them too much respect and waited too long to bring on Izquierdo to liven up our attack. I also think we rode our luck a bit - if not for some wayward finishing from Arnautovic, they could have stolen some points right at the end.

Still, given our run start to the season, the win is probably more important than the performance.

This is as good an assessment of the game as you'll get.
I'd add that I thought Izquierdo looked on fire when he came on; if that's his level this season, he's going to work wonders for us.

 

[maltaseagull]

Generous for Propper. He must have been awesome for the 35 minutes I missed at the start because he was anonymous for the other 50 (subbed at 80 )

I thought so too.. He gave the ball away far too often.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Thought for the most part we lack fluidity, I'm not convinced playing three wingers worked. Knockaert seemed to have an off game, AJ kept drifting inside, Solly seemed too scared to ever run onto passes. Bong was his usual self - impressive at stopping them getting past him, but frequently lax in the pass. Bruno seemed to be off his game, probably a little rusty. Ryan's kicking was frequently poor, but made the simple saves when they were asked of him. Kayal was very positive. Propper was solid but unspectacular. Murray worked hard, took his goal well, but looked tired at times.

First half, while West Ham were tidier, they only had two chances of note - Arnautovic's turn and shot which Murray did well to block (Ryan would have been beaten) and Zabaletta coming in unmarked at the far post, but they then overplayed it and the chance went. As untidy as it felt we were, overhitting passes, not reading runs etc, we did look more likely to score. Second half we sat back and let them play a little too much for my liking. I don't expect us to attack non-stop for 90mins, and when we're leading against teams like West Ham they will have periods of dominance, but it felt like we paid them too much respect and waited too long to bring on Izquierdo to liven up our attack. I also think we rode our luck a bit - if not for some wayward finishing from Arnautovic, they could have stolen some points right at the end.

Still, given our run start to the season, the win is probably more important than the performance.

Mmmm.....I know what you mean, but that's a bit of a joyless post. I loved that win. We will play better and lose. I feel like a king this morning

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I like these threads, it's amazing how many different and alternative games are watched by so many different people across so many parallel universes!
Let's analyse this game.
Wasn't always pretty, defending doggedly, bit slow on the counter attack, players coming back a bit rusty, it was ONLY West Ham, we won 1-0, should've been two.
It would be nice to play fast, expansive football all the time with 80% possession, but I'd take this kind of result all day long if it keeps us in the premier league.
Something big is happening at our club but it's not an overnight thing....I can feel it

This.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

Ryan 6 Nothing to do really. Regulation saves all handled well. Kicking very poor tonight.
Bong 7 Solid as ever.
Dunk 7 D&D kept West Ham at arms length for the entire game.
Duffy 7 as above
Bruno 7 Looked rusty. made a few mistakes, but gets marked up for the beautiful curved pass down the line to release Solly.
Knockhaert 7 Excellent again. We just didn't have enough of the ball to see him at his best
Kayal 8.5 Excellent, didn't expect us to win without Stephens. We wouldn't have without this man
March 6 Don't think it worked having him as the 10. But again we didn't have enough of the ball to judge.
Propper 6 Covered Kayal well enough, but runs the risk of losing his place when Stephens returns
Murray 7.5 Brilliant again. Great goal, great energy, great fight.
Ali J 6 clearly buys into the working as hard in defence as attack philosophy. Decent start to his Albion career.

Izquieredo 7 - He's back! looked really good. Think he will be our impact sub for a few matches yet.
Locadia 6.5 - so nearly!
Bissouma N/A

 

[Kneon Light]

Thought Kayal was immense and Bong not far behind.
I was impressed with Propper as well and thought he kept things ticking over nicely in an understated way.
Thought Knocky had a poor game and was trying to do too much at times and made a lot of poor decisions.

 

[WhingForPresident]

Missed a lot of the first half as I was distracted by work crap, so won't give full ratings.

Positives:
Kayal was brilliant, we have really missed him. Think a lot of people had forgotten how good he is

Dunk had his best performance of the season so far by a long way.

Bong and March did well. Not amazing but improvements on previous displays.

Izquierdo looked lively when he came on, another player we have really missed.

Negatives

It's the fourth or fifth consecutive game where Ryan's kicking has been atrocious. It will cost us soon.

Pröpper looked like he was high for about 15 mins of the second half, when he missed two simple defensive headers (one in the box when Arnautovic was right behind him) and was misplacing passes in our final third. He was lucky not to give away a goal.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Kayal played and completed less passes (76% of 21 passes) than Propper (92% of 25 passes) tonight. That isn't an opinion - it's a fact. He also completed three tackles, second only to Kayal.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying he had his best game, and he obviously didn't create the goal in the way Kayal did, but Propper was the sitter today and Kayal was given more license to push, press and dribble, and that suited Kayal more than Propper who it seems CH is desperate to misuse. The idea that Propper was rubbish tonight, as some suggest, isn't fair. What is probably fair is that we missed Stephens' natural ability in that sitting role to dictate games and pick the right passes into forwards and wide men from deep midfield areas - that isn't a style either Propper or Kayal have in abundance. We became too frantic as a result, often unsure when to slow the game down and when to speed it up - that gave WHU the ability to dictate the game from midfield in a 3v2. It also probably didn't help that March hasn't played that number 10 role and consequently didn't know when to drop in and help them in the way that Gross would do as a more natural player in that position.

I don't really believe these stats, surely no one has had the time to work this out accurately for every player in the time since the match. But whatever, my issue with Propper is never about what he does on the ball, he's always tidy and rarely misplaces a pass. My gripe for four games in a row now is (1) how little he gets on the ball from such a critical position. I'd like to compare those 25 passes with, say, a typical Liam Bridcutt performance from back in the day. Last year propper averaged 38 passes a game, this year its about 26. So he's off somewhere and its probably the loss of gross messing with our formation, but still. (2) The main thing, how ineffectual he has been when the opposition has dominated possession in midfield - saints first half, spurs, city and now west ham second half. It may not be his natural game but that just exaggerates how much we appear to be a man down in the centre of the park at these times. Thats the anonymity that bugs me.

 

[Napier's Knee]

Ryan 6 - are the awful clearances deliberate? They must be
Bruno 6. Rusty but glimpses of the Spanish God. Having said that I'll be more relaxed when Montoya is back
Duffy 8. Brick....
Dunk 8 ....wall
Bong 7. As someone said in another post he does the hard stuff really well and the simple stuff less well.
Knockaert 7 Tireless but needs to keep it simple and remember which way he is meant to be going.
Kayal 9. He adds bite, he assists, he look up when he crosses. MoM and needs to keep the shirt - makes the whole team more aggressive
Propper 6. Another languid performance - some lovely work but also some loose passes. looks to be missing Stephens
Ali J 7. Faded in the second half but there is a hell of a player in there and has the right attitude. Going to be great to watch him blossom
March 6. His best game for us this season but needs to watch a looped video of Murray to see how to close down, how to tackle, how to be physical. Better as a 10 than a winger but hopefully Gross back soon
Murray 8. What an intelligent footballer! Love to watch him play.

Jose 7. I'd forgotten how quick he is - we need him back
Locadia 6. So near! He's coming good but like March needs to learn from Glenn
Bissouma n/a

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

I thought so too.. He gave the ball away far too often.

He gave it away twice. Less than any of his teammates.

 

[Sarisbury Seagull]

Ryan - 6 - didn’t really have a save to make but always a reassuring presence. Does need to work on his kicking though;

Bruno - 6 - solid. Didn’t offer much going forward but he was up against their best attacking player in Felipe;

Dunk - 6 - Solid and the usual heroic diving in front. Distribution not up to usual standards though and got mugged off in the second half at one point;

Duffy - 7 - Very good, having an excellent season;

Bong - 5 - A bit of a worry defensively now, some rash challenges and clearances. Did put in a couple of very good crosses but would like to see Bernardo given another go;

Knockaert - 7 - Some lovely bits of skill and fantastic work rate helping Bruno out against Felipe. Couple of final balls let him down;

Kayal - 9 - Fantastic, all action performance. He seemed to be running faster than I’ve ever seen him too. MOM;

Propper - 6 - I actually like him in that depper role as he is very good at finding space and picking a pass but there were some wayward passes too last night;

Ali J - 6 - I thought he started really well but quieter second half. Worked hard all game though. I like him;

March - 7 - Thought he had a good game in the central role and it was great having someone with pace to run in behind. Would like to see him tried there again;

Murray - 8 - Any kid who wants to be a centre forward needs to watch him in this game. That was a lesson in how to play the role - holding it up, finding space, being a nuisance to defenders and finishing;

Izquierdo - 6 - Great having him back, had almost forgotten how electrifying he can be;

Bissouma and Locadia - Not on long enough.

 

[sussex_guy2k2]

I don't really believe these stats, surely no one has had the time to work this out accurately for every player in the time since the match. But whatever, my issue with Propper is never about what he does on the ball, he's always tidy and rarely misplaces a pass. My gripe for four games in a row now is (1) how little he gets on the ball from such a critical position. I'd like to compare those 25 passes with, say, a typical Liam Bridcutt performance from back in the day. Last year propper averaged 38 passes a game, this year its about 26. So he's off somewhere and its probably the loss of gross messing with our formation, but still. (2) The main thing, how ineffectual he has been when the opposition has dominated possession in midfield - saints first half, spurs, city and now west ham second half. It may not be his natural game but that just exaggerates how much we appear to be a man down in the centre of the park at these times. Thats the anonymity that bugs me.

Those stats are taken from Whoscored.com. Sites like that pay people to check such metrics. So you can debate them all you want, but your speculation about him giving the ball away is no more concrete than the information provided by a site whose business it is to actually record these things. And, contrary to popular belief, Kayal gave the ball away more than Propper last night.

As for your second point, it's a fair one to a degree. But ask yourself this - how many different midfield roles has Propper played since the start of the season? I count four, at least. He's played the role he played last season as the left of centre midfielder but with license to move forward, he's played as the sitter yesterday and against City, he's played as the right sided central midfielder against Saints in the first half where all 3 of our midfielders looked utterly lost and confused, and he's played in the Gross role in the second half against Saints where he was much improved. In this time, we've played four of last season's top 6 in games where we are inevitably going to have less of the ball. He's also played alongside a mixture of players in central roles, with Kayal, Stephens, Gross, Bissouma and March, where he's been the only consistent starting player centrally. Are you surprised he's not at his best level? The guy probably doesn't know whether he's coming or going - he must be so confused about his role in this side!

And you compare his average passing stats this season to last season (hilariously, you debate the accuracy of data from last night's match but then use data to make your own point...) yet your point seems a tad invalid on the basis that you're using lower passing stats to criticise Propper, despite the fact that Kayal was the MOTM last night despite making less passes! Which is it? What side of the fence are you sitting on?

As to your Bridcutt comparison, they're unfair for a few reasons. 1) Propper usually plays a more advanced role than Bridcutt ever did - a better comparison would've been Bridcutt for Stephens. 2) Bridcutt never proved himself capable at Premier League level, something Propper has already done. 3) Bridcutt played at a lower level in a team that was built to dominate possession - this side has, this season at least, operated very very deep and defensively for much of the season and often had very little of the ball, so the comparison really is mute.

What I'd also ask is why our midfielders as a whole are struggling at the moment. Is it simply because we've had a tough start? Is it because they've lacked an outball when they have had it to push us up the pitch? Is it because we've playing more direct from the back? Is it because we've missed Stephens for a few games? Or is it a tactical issue that has come from CHs constant chopping and changing at the start of the season? Or maybe, is it a mixture of all of them? Either way, we've got 8 points from 8 games after a relatively tough start to the season and Propper has had a very consistent role in that as the only midfield player who's always started.

 

[Machiavelli]

Kayal played and completed less passes (76% of 21 passes) than Propper (92% of 25 passes) tonight. That isn't an opinion - it's a fact. He also completed three tackles, second only to Kayal

I think [MENTION=805]Kalimantan Gull[/MENTION] is developing blinkers when it comes to Propper. This isn't the first time that his assessment of Propper has subsequently been disproved by factual information, and I do wonder how KG will respond.
FWIW, I'm a big fan of Propper but, United aside, I don't think he's been up to too much this season. When Stephens is back, he may not start so easily, but (if Gross' absence/decline in form also continues) we may see a midfield three of Kayal, Stephens and Propper for a few games (with Stephens playing the deeper role either with Kayal and Propper more advanced, ie 4-4-1-1 or with both more advanced, ie 4-1-4-1).

Edit: I've just seen KG's reply, which has some validity to it, but you seem to want him to be various types of CM (what he is; a tough-tackling DCM; a fetch-and-carry DCM; ACM; etc) when he isn't. The point Sussex Guy makes about statistics is spot on. You can't have both worlds. SG has also offered an entirely appropriate assessment of the differences between Bridcutt and Propper,

 

[BUTTERBALL]

Kayal clear man of the match, superb performance and i thought Duffy in particular was immense at the back.

 

[Acker79]

Those stats are taken from Whoscored.com. Sites like that pay people to check such metrics. So you can debate them all you want, but your speculation about him giving the ball away is no more concrete than the information provided by a site whose business it is to actually record these things. And, contrary to popular belief, Kayal gave the ball away more than Propper last night.

Me? I love a good stat. But a stat alone is often meaningless. Ok, Kayal played and completed more passes. But what sort of passes were they? Dunk and Duffy could easily up their passing stats by playing the ball back and forth to each other while our opponents sit back happy we're no threat as our defensive duo retain position on the edge of our D. How often do you see players instead of crossing the ball to create a chance for us, choose to play a simple pass to a team mate right next to them who puts the cross in instead - right there one player gets another completed pass, the other gets an incomplete pass. One of them took responsibility and tried to make something happen, the other just improved his stats.

They also don't show what becomes of a misplaced pass. Did the West Ham player who intercepted a loose pass then lose the ball or did he play a teammate in for a threat on goal?

Number passes, number of passes completed, really need context. Kayal provided an assist. That's surely more important than how many passes he made? Neither of them lost possession resulting in a goal for west ham, surely that's more important than pass completion %?