[News] Plane gone down in the French Alps?

[Insel affe]

I've also read somewhere that the only way he cannot re-enter is if the mechanism is disabled from the inside, I'm pretty sure this was brought in as a post 9/11 measure to stop any attempted terrorist from forcing the pilot who is outside to open it.

An aviation expert who helped bring in better safety for pilots and cockpits has just affirmed this on radio 5 live, so we are looking at suicide or worse. However what he said was very strange is that the leaked story about one of pilots knocking lightly at first then harder is odd as no background voices panicking have been mentioned which would be case , so therefore decompression of the plane which many in the media have ruled out may not be the case.

 

[Flex Your Head]

Good point made on the pprune forum:

So we have a European built aircraft operated by a European Company , Flying between two European Countries. The investigation is being carried out by European Agencies yet for some reason Americans tell us almost immediately that there is no terrorist connection and now a Senior American Military official is allegedly leaking information to the NYT about information gleaned from the CVR. Not comfortable with how this is playing out.

 

[Hillian1]

I know it's the Mirror, but bloody hell.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/germanwings-plane-crash-pilots-involved-5402809

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Oh but it is. I often see one of the pilots on BA flights having a chat with the flight attendants in the galley at the front of an Airbus A320/319 on flights to and from Toulouse, Often getting a cup of coffee, or taking the cup back. Not uncommon at all. In fact they often come out and chat to other pilots who are flying as passengers but in BA uniform, if they are at the front in club, which they generally are.

Fair enough. I've not noticed it myself though.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Would the plane not have been on auto-pilot by then so, if the member of flight crew remaining in the cockpit, had been rendered unconscious, the plane would have continued at cruising altitude.

Not necessarily the flight crew may have been flying it at that point. Furthermore the A320 is fly by wire, meaning all inputs are controlled by computers, it doesn't have a standard yoke in front of the pilot but a joy stick. If the stick is touched during auto-pilot mode the computers decide if the pilot has just "nudged it" by accident or that he has made a move to take control. This differs from conventional systems. However if the computer does decide the pilot is assuming control a light and bell signal will warn of this. If the "now" single pilot did indeed suffer from some sort of blackout/heart attack his hand would of had to be near the joy stick and give a positive input on it to over-ride the auto-pilot.

In regard to the other pilot the standard mechanism on cockpit doors rely on a solenoid switch being activated by crew present inside the cockpit. The button for this is normally located on the centre consul. The solenoid is located in the door frame adjacent to the door mechanism. To leave the cockpit all the pilot has to do is turn the door handle. Pre-9/11 access could also be gained by key in the door handle. (all the keys being generic to all main aircraft manufactures and I still have some myself!) Post-9/11 further locks were installed but left down to each airline to decide. BA's older aircraft were fitted with a simple bolt lock. Should have mentioned the doors also have a spyhole just like you would have on your front door. Newer aircraft may have keycoded locks in addition to the solenoid lock. In not being able to gain entry the pilot may not have had a key (not surprising really as it would be extremely rare for a pilot to need one) and with the solenoid lock he was unlikely to overcome it.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

I know it's the Mirror, but bloody hell.


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/germanwings-plane-crash-pilots-involved-5402809

There seems to be lots of "aviation experts".

 

[Bold Seagull]

Not necessarily the flight crew may have been flying it at that point. Furthermore the A320 is fly by wire, meaning all inputs are controlled by computers, it doesn't have a standard yoke in front of the pilot but a joy stick. If the stick is touched during auto-pilot mode the computers decide if the pilot has just "nudged it" by accident or that he has made a move to take control. This differs from conventional systems. However if the computer does decide the pilot is assuming control a light and bell signal will warn of this. If the "now" single pilot did indeed suffer from some sort of blackout/heart attack his hand would of had to be near the joy stick and give a positive input on it to over-ride the auto-pilot.

In regard to the other pilot the standard mechanism on cockpit doors rely on a solenoid switch being activated by crew present inside the cockpit. The button for this is normally located on the centre consul. The solenoid is located in the door frame adjacent to the door mechanism. To leave the cockpit all the pilot has to do is turn the door handle. Pre-9/11 access could also be gained by key in the door handle. (all the keys being generic to all main aircraft manufactures and I still have some myself!) Post-9/11 further locks were installed but left down to each airline to decide. BA's older aircraft were fitted with a simple bolt lock. Should have mentioned the doors also have a spyhole just like you would have on your front door. Newer aircraft may have keycoded locks in addition to the solenoid lock. In not being able to gain entry the pilot may not have had a key (not surprising really as it would be extremely rare for a pilot to need one) and with the solenoid lock he was unlikely to overcome it.

Is the possibility of one pilot being outside the cockpit, and the pilot inside being taken ill or incapacitated really not taking into account in regard to gaining access to the cockpit from the outside? Does the pilot outside have no kind of keypad entry or key to get back in? Seems an obvious possibility to consider really.

 

[Steve in Japan]

Is the possibility of one pilot being outside the cockpit, and the pilot inside being taken ill or incapacitated really not taking into account in regard to gaining access to the cockpit from the outside? Does the pilot outside have no kind of keypad entry or key to get back in? Seems an obvious possibility to consider really.

That's what I was wondering. Eliminating one risk post 9-11 inadvertently created a new one?

 

[dingodan]

Is the possibility of one pilot being outside the cockpit, and the pilot inside being taken ill or incapacitated really not taking into account in regard to gaining access to the cockpit from the outside? Does the pilot outside have no kind of keypad entry or key to get back in? Seems an obvious possibility to consider really.

The suggestion is that if the pilot in the cockpit was incapacitated then someone could enter using a key code. But if the pilot in the cockpit was conscious, then he would have the ability, if he wanted, to override the key code and refuse entry. Doesn't look good.

 

[Insel affe]

Is the possibility of one pilot being outside the cockpit, and the pilot inside being taken ill or incapacitated really not taking into account in regard to gaining access to the cockpit from the outside? Does the pilot outside have no kind of keypad entry or key to get back in? Seems an obvious possibility to consider really.

No they have thought of that and it is possible to gain access, although they will not divulge how. However this can be over ridden by inside, therefore it should rule out a pilot being taken ill as he would not over ride the ability for someone to come into the cock pit only someone inside who did not want someone else coming in would use it.......

Odd that they have not released the pilots names as they have with some of the poor people who have tragically lost their lives. Could this be because they either have cause for concern. They released the names of the pilots from missing flight MH370 very quickly.

 

[Bold Seagull]

The suggestion is that if the pilot in the cockpit was incapacitated then someone could enter using a key code. But if the pilot in the cockpit was conscious, then he would have the ability, if he wanted, to override the key code and refuse entry. Doesn't look good.

Thanks, I'm now catching up with where some of the hypothesis are coming from.

Presumably, this was in place in case the pilot inside thought the other pilot was being held hostage / threatened and so could prevent entry in that event. Can't think of any other reason for having that override in place.

 

[dingodan]

Thanks, I'm now catching up with where some of the hypothesis are coming from.

Presumably, this was in place in case the pilot inside thought the other pilot was being held hostage / threatened and so could prevent entry in that event. Can't think of any other reason for having that override in place.

Yes the idea is that all eventualities are covered. I'm sad to say that as much as this could have been a depressed pilot, it could also have been an act of suicide terrorism. Either way it must make things even more difficult for the families now realizing it probably wasn't an accident.

 

[Steve in Japan]

The suggestion is that if the pilot in the cockpit was incapacitated then someone could enter using a key code. But if the pilot in the cockpit was conscious, then he would have the ability, if he wanted, to override the key code and refuse entry. Doesn't look good.

Ah I see. So this override is in place to prevent a pilot getting back into the cockpit who is being c-oerced to do so.

 

[Steve in Japan]

Ah I see. So this override is in place to prevent a pilot getting back into the cockpit who is being c-oerced to do so.

Sorry posts crossed as it were.

 

[dingodan]

Sorry posts crossed as it were.

I think you are right, it's in case the other pilot is under duress.

 

[dangull]

Indeed, so that leaves a more sinister story yet to unfold.

Not if he became unconscious and slumped on to the control stick.

 

[dingodan]

Not if he became unconscious and slumped on to the control stick.

It is being said that the decent was too controlled, and that the other pilot would have been able to gain entry if his co-pilot was unconscious.

 

[dingodan]

I'm a little surprised that they haven't released details about who the pilots were yet.

 

[Midfield Minton]

As sad as it sounds I think there waiting to find out who is the good or bad guy in all this,think they have know something was not right from the start

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

"Co-pilot of Germanwings flight that crashed in Alps took sole control of plane and started descent, officials say"