Paul Hayward in today's Telegraph

[London Irish]

Sports jounalists though, they don't really count

 

[Gwylan]

I have often wondered if people who were born and raised in these areas actually consider themselves as being part of Brighton. Much in the same way as people from Westdene and Withdean. Not everyone obviously, but you always have apocryphal tales of people from Moulsecoomb never having seen the sea - or a cow or sheep for that matter.

I was born in BGH but raised in Moulsecoomb and I certainly feel part of Brighton.

But I know what you mean, there are some people on the estate who think that Bevendean is another town.

 

[StephenWrexhamFc]

I've tried to send an e mail to Paul Hayward about the support we've had from Brighton fans but it's bounced back.

I want to convey to him how chuffed we all are with the backing we've had and hopefully both clubs can move forward as soon as possible.

 

[Gwylan]

So, am I understanding this correctly: for some people, Brighton just isn't scruffy or boring enough? That it would be better if it had more obvious poverty like, say, Hastings, a stagnant property market like some half-derelict former mining village somewhere and about four nightclubs in total - like it had 20 years ago? And that North Laine was actually better when it was nothing more than grotty houses, the Argus printworks and some butchers shops in Kensington Gardens?

Well, it's an opinion. I think it's a stark, staring mad opinion that flies in the face of the vibrancy I see there every day. But maybe that's just me.

I do get pissed off indeed at this eeyore-ish moaning about other these bloody out of towners moving down to "their" town! It would be a joke if it wasn't actually slightly sinister.

About 75% of the population DOESN'T come from Brighton in the first place. Brighton is a state of mind - of tolerance, of fun - that is open to everyone who fancies joining in, whether they're trendy "web designers" or not.

I'm not moaning about the influx of outsiders, far from it; the more the merrier I say.

I just said that North Laine hasn't necessarily got better because there are lots of trendy shops. You're wrong to say that Nl was nothing but some grotty houses and the Argus printworks. As TL1 mentioned, there used to be several record shops where one could browse for ages.

There was also a massive number of second-hand clothes shops that catered for the motley collection of students, hippies and punks that inhabited the area. I was saddened to see that Rosens had closed down, it had been there for nearly a century.

There were some normal, reasonably-priced boozers (although I'm pleased that most of them are still there), there was the resources centre where local bands played and a whole host of interesting local businesses - don't forget that The Body Shop started there. I remember when it was a tiny shop, I bought henna from there in my punk days. And in a time of mass-produced horrors, The Cheese Shop offered some real food - a harbinger of things to come.

So, people who gone about North Laine being a shithole don't really remember the area. There were thriving businesses, perhaps not quite so self-consciously trendy as they are now, but real enough. I was at uni in Bradford in the late 70s/early 80s, now that was a shithole. North Laine was paradise compared to that.

I take TL1's point that if the town is to develop economically that it's better that businesses grow, attract more people to the area, pay more rent etc etc. Looking at the wider picture, he's perfectly correct, but I can't help feeling that something's been lost when shops that have been there for generations vanish. Those shops had their roots in the community and served that community; you do get the impression that these shops would up sticks tomorrow if they thought there was more money to be made elsewhere or somewhere else was the trendy place to be.

Perhaps I have a romanticised view of the town. I know that it's far better that Brighton thrives and grows but I hope that growth is based on real substance and not on some notion of what's trendy. I do fear that all the North Laine development is just to catch the transient shoppers before they head back to London.

But to get another picture of Brighton, take a walk along London Road. Or look at the Open Market or Baker Street. These were once thriving communities too but, of course, day trippers don't go down there. I know that we're a seaside town and we're going to get a lot of casual trade but we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that this is a place where people live and work too.

 

[Brovion]

I agree with MoH that places like North Laine and Churchill Square are MUCH better than they were even 10 years ago. How anyone can say they preferred Brighton when it was all run-down and grotty is beyond me - it's like complaining how sad it is that Eskimos don't live in igloos any more.

Brighton (like probably most cities) is a complex place. Parts of it (eg the surviving Regency parts) should be preserved almost in aspic. Other parts need renewal and change, and it isn't always obvious what should be done. Also the people come and go and you can't suddenly pull up the drawbridge and say "Ok, we've accepted the TV producers and Journalists but the web designers can f*ck right off". I'm sure this isn't a new debate, I'm sure the original fishing folk objected to the people who came with the Prince Regent and in their turn they probably objected to the influx of railway workers.

I'm in favor of anything that improves the fabric of the city and that does sometimes mean taking the rough with the smooth - and I'm talking about people as well as buildings. Better to build the odd mistake and then knock it down (viz Churchill Square) than the ENDLESS debate over places like Jubilee site, Brighton Station, King Alfred etc that can run for decades. Usually it's outsiders who block these developments because they object to them changing the 'character' of Brighton, even though that 'character' is just a snapshot of the moment when they first ancountered the greatest city on the planet.

 

[Simster]

So I have to be prepared to commute to London to be able to live in my own town?

If you can't find a job in Brighton that pays your mortgage, then, erm yes. Like MoH, DtG, afters, Tedebear and probably many others on this board.

That is what is driving house prices up - other people *are* prepared to do the commute (and the fact that I am not is one of the reasons we don't live there). At the end of the day, London weightings are driven by the market.

 

[CHAPPERS]

Well, that's sad innit.

 

[Simster]

Yep. Sad but true I think.

 

[aftershavedave]

If you can't find a job in Brighton that pays your mortgage, then, erm yes. Like MoH, DtG, afters, Tedebear and probably many others on this board.

That is what is driving house prices up - other people *are* prepared to do the commute (and the fact that I am not is one of the reasons we don't live there). At the end of the day, London weightings are driven by the market.

sad but true fact of life for me and many others is that i've just passed my 20th anniversary of commuting to the smoke, and it's not a happy thing to do.

 

[CHAPPERS]

But if I start doing that, who is gonna do my job and where are they gonna come from?

 

[aftershavedave]

i've just re-read this thread and in particular paul hayward's article.

somene says above that he sounds like a disgruntled londoner who has moved to brighton only to detest the next wave, and he does doesn't he! strange given he was born here.

the problem we seem to have is in maintaining a balance between urban regeneration that is targetted towards local people (and by this i mean people who live here) and in attracting visitors into our city. it's a very difficult call isn't it? i'm with moh and sim about certain areas of urban regeneration....i lived in the north laine years and years ago and it was dire...certainly it's ten times more attractive both for visitors and inhabitants.

but going hand-in-hand with that is the relentless drive to make the town centre a playground for weekenders, and for me this has gone too far. i had the pleasure of partaking in a brighton based stag a few weeks ago (with moh actually) and we visited places we wouldn't normally be seen dead in...old orleans, etc etc. truly shocking. literally dozens of hen and stag parties, and not one ounce of local character. the majority of profits from these folks almost certainly don't stay locally, despite the assurances from the council that we "need" them.

as for the price of houses, this is a truly shocking situation. i have only ever commuted because i wanted to live in brighton, not because of the relative house prices, but i'm in a minority here. i'd have thought that they crap rail service would have put people off, but no. solution: there isn't one, although i've got a lot of sympathy with chapper's suggestion re weighting.

 

[Brovion]

Good points afters. It is the problem of 'striking the balance'. I moan like crazy when some traditional pub closes down only to be 'done up' and re-open again as another pre-club bar. I still think though that Brighton is moving in the right direction and when the Library and Station re-developments are finished (to say nothing of the stadium) it will be better still.

And for the lovers of 'grotty, unattracive Brighton' we've still got the London Road, Baker St, Open Market area (where I am at the moment). However I'm not a social anthropologist and consequently I would love the area to have a bit of development. And if that means it loses the wino/pikey 'character' it currently has - great.

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

CTS - they will commute in, from cheaper places. Ridiculous I know.

My two-pence worth is that Brighton looks a far safer, cleaner place than 20 years ago. The improvement in the seafront, North Laines etc is remarkable. And the regency front, particulary Kemp Town looks far better for being cared for.

Brighton has always had large numbers of incomers. We came down from London in 1960 when my old man got a job at the old Technical College (I think the universities have had an enormous impact on the place). I had many friends whose parents were not local. Same as it ever was.

A lot of employment in those days was seasonal. It was a common topic for comment amongst the adults. And Brighton was a relatively poor place, poor wages for only part of the year. Of course there was money around, but there was poverty as well. Brighton didn't shut down like places like Littlehampton for the winter, but it did used to have a clear off-season. It now appears to be a 12 month place.

The trick is to keep the city as a living breathing place, where people live and and can earn money. The scenario of it being almost exclusively a commuter-town is not a great prospect. I think the council have done a largely good job in assisting the city show it's best face, but now is the time to work on attracting employers.

I have a wishful thought, that it is the latest influx of Londoners that, soon to be fed-up with the commuting, start local businesses to pay the wages to keep people in the area.

 

[Spiros]

CTS - they will commute in, from cheaper places. Ridiculous I know.

Not that ridiculous - that's exactly what I do now. Lived in Hove until about 7 years ago but the arrival of kids meant we needed more space but when it's a choice between a terrace in Poets Corner with nowhere to park or a decent-sized house only 20 minutes further away from work with a big garden for the kids to play in then it becomes inevitable. Part of me would like to still live in Brighton but as I never really cared about it enough (I was born & bred in Shoreham anyway) I let the missus win that particular argument

 

[South Yarra Seagull]

Quality thread.... Making me think long and hard about the city i call home...