Paul Barber - ID checks of fans at away games?

[drew]

I'm struggling to understand why you're struggling to understand

Almost everyone on here has at some point needed to pass their ticket on to someone else, or has a spare they want to give away, or has wanted to get a ticket last minute, or has wanted to take a friend or girlfriend or boyfriend to a game when they don't have a purchase history...

... and what we've now basically been told is that from now on there will be random ID spotchecks and we'll get in some kind of trouble if we're caught or they're caught with a ticket assigned to the wrong fan number. This potentially affects everyone, you yourself are trying to move a QPR ticket on. I can't read anything different into this issue than that.


I generally like what Barber is doing at the club but this statement strikes me as a heavy-handed threat to those of us who stay deeply involved in BHA news and has probably gone on unawares to those people who it is actually aimed at

Isn't the point Bozza implies is that he believes there won't be 'random' checks. They will only check where there are reasons to check, ie presumably when someone causes trouble.

 

[n1 gull]

I'm struggling to understand why you're struggling to understand

Almost everyone on here has at some point needed to pass their ticket on to someone else, or has a spare they want to give away, or has wanted to get a ticket last minute, or has wanted to take a friend or girlfriend or boyfriend to a game when they don't have a purchase history...

... and what we've now basically been told is that from now on there will be random ID spotchecks and we'll get in some kind of trouble if we're caught or they're caught with a ticket assigned to the wrong fan number. This potentially affects everyone, you yourself are trying to move a QPR ticket on. I can't read anything different into this issue than that.


I generally like what Barber is doing at the club but this statement strikes me as a heavy-handed threat to those of us who stay deeply involved in BHA news and has probably gone on unawares to those people who it is actually aimed at

That in a nutshell is the argument. If you want to take a casual supporter, friend or other family member you might get into trouble or not allowed in. If someone with your ticket causes aggro, gets drunk etc.. of course the ticket holder should be responsible. The whole communication was heavy handed and frankly horrible.

It certainly doesn't sound very 'Together'.

Anyway, todays a new day and I'm sure we will all find something new to get our teeth into

 

[El Presidente]

Isn't the point Bozza implies is that he believes there won't be 'random' checks. They will only check where there are reasons to check, ie presumably when someone causes trouble.

If that is the case then I'm fine about it. For the sake of transparency Bozza and I went for a curry post Rotherham, and his comments on NSC were consistent with the discussion we had that evening (great curry house by the way)

The comment on the club website is however different, and refers to 'random spot checks'. How random (1 in 10, 1 in 100, 1 in 500) is not detailed.



Paul Barber and I have had further lengthy correspondence on the issue. (I didn't initiate the correspondence, in case anyone thinks I was trying to set myself up as voice of the fans or anything similar). I will publish Paul's response if he gives permission.

 

[Geestar]

Well that limits the games I will get too. Hard to rack up loyalty points up here!

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[Goldstone1976]

I consider myself a reasonably responsible fan who generally abides by the rules and expectations of society in general and the club in particular. And yet, I have personally been involved in the following transactions this season, all of which would appear to be against both the letter and, if PB's responses to [MENTION=6886]Bozza[/MENTION] and [MENTION=31]El Presidente[/MENTION] are to be taken at face value, the spirit of what the club intend:

1. Bought a ticket for an away game, found I couldn't go and passed it on at face value to a friend
2. Bought a ticket for an away game, found I couldn't go and gave it away to another friend.
3. a) Acted as go between between the purchaser of an away ticket who found he couldn't go and a fellow NSC user who wanted a ticket for a mate, this transaction was made at a pub near the away ground. I guess this technically makes me a tout.
3. b) When it became apparent that the ticket I had purchased for myself would allow the two friends to definitely be together in the ground, whereas the one I had acted as go-between might not, swapped my ticket for the one purchased by the person who could no longer attend.

All of these transactions occurred well before the latest club announcement. All could have resulted in me and/or the other parties involved being punished by the club, perhaps severely.

I note that PB objected to the word "criminalising" that el P used. While he is of course technically correct (unless the club called in the police for the touting), if the club were to have punished me for any of the above actions had I been "caught" by removing LP or other sanctions, it would certainly have felt that way. A question for Paul - if you don't like "criminalising", what word would you prefer?

I do see that the club may want to prevent some holders of LP buying tickets for those that don't have them, thus possibly preventing others who do have them from getting tickets for sold out games. However, if the others have the LP they too could have purchased tickets by, I don't know, getting their arses into gear when the window opens. Equally importantly, if punished, the club will create ill-will amongst equally loyal fans (they too have the LP, otherwise they couldn't have bought the ticket) who are, in the main, simply doing a mate a favour.

The problem with policing this is that there will be a myriad of diffent extenuating circumstances. The club will either have to expend a lot of effort in considering each case on its merits or apply a blanket punishment regime in order to maintain a consistent policy. The former will be far too time-consuming to implement; the latter will punish the vast majority of offenders who have done little wrong in order to catch the small minority who are genuinely abusing the system in both letter and spirit, imo.

#Together? In this case, not so much.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Isn't the point Bozza implies is that he believes there won't be 'random' checks. They will only check where there are reasons to check, ie presumably when someone causes trouble.

Right, and I read that too between the lines. The implication is, although they've said there will be random checks, they don't really mean it.

Well, if you don't mean it, don't say it. And don't be pissed off that you're getting flak back as a result.

 

[Hampster Gull]

#Together only when it serves the club

 

[Peter Grummit]

I consider myself a reasonably responsible fan who generally abides by the rules and expectations of society in general and the club in particular. And yet, I have personally been involved in the following transactions this season, all of which would appear to be against both the letter and, if PB's responses to [MENTION=6886]Bozza[/MENTION] and [MENTION=31]El Presidente[/MENTION] are to be taken at face value, the spirit of what the club intend:

1. Bought a ticket for an away game, found I couldn't go and passed it on at face value to a friend
2. Bought a ticket for an away game, found I couldn't go and gave it away to another friend.
3. a) Acted as go between between the purchaser of an away ticket who found he couldn't go and a fellow NSC user who wanted a ticket for a mate, this transaction was made at a pub near the away ground. I guess this technically makes me a tout.
3. b) When it became apparent that the ticket I had purchased for myself would allow the two friends to definitely be together in the ground, whereas the one I had acted as go-between might not, swapped my ticket for the one purchased by the person who could no longer attend.

All of these transactions occurred well before the latest club announcement. All could have resulted in me and/or the other parties involved being punished by the club, perhaps severely.

I note that PB objected to the word "criminalising" that el P used. While he is of course technically correct (unless the club called in the police for the touting), if the club were to have punished me for any of the above actions had I been "caught" by removing LP or other sanctions, it would certainly have felt that way. A question for Paul - if you don't like "criminalising", what word would you prefer?

I do see that the club may want to prevent some holders of LP buying tickets for those that don't have them, thus possibly preventing others who do have them from getting tickets for sold out games. However, if the others have the LP they too could have purchased tickets by, I don't know, getting their arses into gear when the window opens. Equally importantly, if punished, the club will create ill-will amongst equally loyal fans (they too have the LP, otherwise they couldn't have bought the ticket) who are, in the main, simply doing a mate a favour.

The problem with policing this is that there will be a myriad of diffent extenuating circumstances. The club will either have to expend a lot of effort in considering each case on its merits or apply a blanket punishment regime in order to maintain a consistent policy. The former will be far too time-consuming to implement; the latter will punish the vast majority of offenders who have done little wrong in order to catch the small minority who are genuinely abusing the system in both letter and spirit, imo.

#Together? In this case, not so much.

Good and honest post.

In such a positive season and just when we all need to pull #Together for the most important 10 games in recent club history, this looks at best a PR error by PB.

Contrast with Derby's approach to tomorrow's game: http://www.dcfc.co.uk//news/article/2016-17/brighton-tickets-available-on-general-sale-3601551.aspx . They are having a car crash of a season, with rumours of player power and plenty of fan disillusionment and dissent. But, in offering this initiative, the owners recognise explicitly the value of maximising away support and how modern football (read: Sky fixture changes) affects fans. The contrast with PB's line on this is palpable.

PG

 

[Taybha]

No jeans and black tie ! Coming soon to a football stadium near you

 

[BN9 BHA]

Once again, it seems like the people most opposed to this move are the ones more likely to attempt to cheat the system. I'm all for anything to make sure the rules we all signed up to are enforced properly.

I was lucky enough to get an away Brentford ticket from a friend that couldn't make the match, I do go to away games but missed the boat buying myself a ticket in my name.
I didn't feel like I ' cheated the system ' I felt like I used a ticket that would have just sat on my friends shelf or whatever, unused.
I went to the game and supported the team.

 

[Dave the OAP]

I wonder why barber chooses to send out these sort of things when everyone is together pushing hard for promotion...feeling the pressure and excitement in equal measures ...and then on comes this little man to threaten fans with asking for ID?

So when I get a ticket for the villa game in the main stand, will someone from the albion come up to me and ask me where I got my ticket...simple answer. Foxtrot oscar.

It just seems like the timing these days of things from the club seems brilliant.

Of course if we feck this up and don't go up, next season albion may be begging fans to go to games if we end up not doing well..

 

[chaileyjem]

Is there anyone on this thread who actually buys and uses tickets for away games for themselves ? I didn't realise it was so unusual.


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[Neville's Breakfast]

I know. It's still illegal. We've done this about a zillion times before. The club allow some flexibility under the spirit of the law.

It might help if we knew what flexibility in which part of the rules the club will be applying. There are many cases on here of fans not
seeking to take advantage but simply using an otherwise empty seat to take family members. Similarly it would be good to get some clarification of whether we are to expect random spot checks (as per the club statement) or checks when a problem arises(as per Mr Barber's e Mail). Much confusion has arisen because of conflicting messages from the club and I don't think we can make any assumptions.
Frankly I am surprised at the way this has been handled. For a club that prides itself on communication it has been.and continues to be a PR failure. I will re-iterate that I am in general very supportive of the club and very rarely (if ever until now) criticise the management.

 

[El Presidente]

PB has given permission to publish the communication between the two of us. Don't read any of this if you have anything to do for the next hour or so, it does go on a bit.

First one from me

Dear Paul

Thanks for the email, I'm as good as can be expected after arriving home at 2am and setting off to fly to work two hours later. I have just arrived at the hotel and would reply to your comments on a one by one basis as follows:

I felt my comments on NSC were measured and proportionate, and as such (given the response from fellow fans who put more emotional comments) were a fair reflection of views expressed. If you feel different and that I was stirring for the sake of it then that is of course your right and privilege.

1: My initial comment in relation to being viewed as second class citizens clearly refers to the actions and decisions made by central government, not the club. This is evidenced by the existence of secondary markets for tickets for other sporting and entertainment events, but not football. Similarly I can take alcohol to a seat at a rugby, tennis, cricket match, or a concert, but not to a football match. I therefore stand by my comment. As a football fan it grates with me that there is such a viewpoint taken by our political leaders.

2: Fully aware that rules are set by government, not the club, but as you have conceded yourself in the past, for some rules a pragmatic approach is taken, such as in relation to standing in seated areas. This is something all fans applaud.

Equally, I am not suggesting or requesting a refund if unable to attend a match. On Friday neither Bozza or myself can attend, for example, it goes with the territory of the moving of fixtures to suit Sky. No one forces us to buy a season ticket, and we are familiar enough with the way the TV companies operate. Personally I would rather the Albion be second in the table and regularly on TV with the attendant fixture movements than 14th and of little interest to the armchiar viewer.

3: In relation to tickets for commercial partners, they take priority in terms of ticket allocation. I fully understand the rationale behind it. It does however potentially mean that a fan who has been to a sizeable number of games may miss out on a ticket as a result becuase tickets are prioritised to those who pay greater sums due to being commercial partners.

The new scheme was marketed as a response to a loyalty issue, but commercial partners do not fall into that bracket. American Express are not loyal to the Albion, they have made a measured commercial decision to sponsor the team and the stadium, and all parties are aware of it.

4: If the club has reason to believe that an individual is abusing the system then again it is right and proper that this should be investigated. It is clear that there have been abuses by some people trying to use children's/OAP tickets to gain entry on the cheap, and my view is throw the book at them. I don't think you will find any reasonable fans that would think differently.

5: What isn't clear is how the new system will operate, To give you an example, I didn't (and neither did my wife) have enough points on Saturday to attend Forest in the away end. This wasn't an issue, I have no problem with the way that the points allocation works, and you will never see me complain on those occasions I can't attend as a result.

Someone I knew was part of a large party attending the game, and there were a couple of late cryoffs due to family illnesses. They therefore contacted me to see if we would like to buy the tickets as a result, which we duly did. There was no original intention to do anything with malevolent or criminal intent by any of the parties.

It would now appear under the proposed rules that I (and/or they) have committed an offence, and this is why I (and many others) are disappointed with the tone and nature of the comments on the club website, as the implication that we are 'piggybacking on other supporters' loyalty points to jump the queue'.

To me what happened at Forest was a practical solution to a problem that arose a few days prior to the match.

No one lost our financially as the fans who sent me their tickets (without, I would repeat, anything other than annoyance and regret at being unable to attend) were reimbursed (at face value, there was no touting). Forest benefitted from extra income from catering before the match and at half time, and we were able to watch the match with fellow fans. The team benefitted from extra vocal support.

The alternative is for those who cannot make the match due to short notice problems (illness, family, work demands etc.) is to not attend and for there to be empty seats. I cannot see who is the beneficiary under such circumstances.

I am however perfectly happy to accept whatever sanctions you think should come our way for attending on Saturday, and will provide you will our fan numbers should you so require so you can take appropriate action.

6: In relation to me as an individual being willing to forego attending a match to allow a child of a friend to attend, my viewpoint is as follows:

I always ideally want to watch the Albion, and buy tickets as soon as my loyalty points arise on that basis. I'm also aware that with the high number of matches reaarranged by Sky/BT, it is difficult for children to attend away games, especially if they are on Friday, late Sunday, Monday night etc.

In that regard younger fans do get a raw deal, as they are being unable to earn loyalty points for matches taking place at these times, as clearly it is inappropriate that education should take priority over attending a game .

There is a chance that friends who go home and away might come up to stay with us for the match at Anfield/Old Trafford etc and bring their child, who could only expect a stadium tour or visit to the Megastore as having insufficient loyalty points.

Under those circumstances I would be prepared to do what I consider to be a decent thing and say to the kid that he can have my ticket. I genuinely don't think that this is an inappropriate form of behaviour.

I would have gone to the match myself under normal circumstances, so would not be denying a person on similar points the chance to attend. Again there is no malevolence in the actions, I would be a bit hacked off at missing a match, but it would be a Good Samaritan act surely?

The child would get the opportunity to see the Albion play at a famous venue and get more enjoyment from the experience than myself, who would be the only loser in this event from what I can make out.

Your comments about 'exploiting the system' and the threat of withdrawing points is in effect criminalising such behaviour. This may not have been your intent when writing the press release, but is the way it has been interpreted by myself and others.

7: In relation to my 'profiling' comment, Darren and I were discussing last night the issue of the away ticket proposals during a curry post the match at Rotherham. I may have misinterpreted his viewpoint, which was the checking would be aimed at fans in the 16-25 year old group, who were more likely to cause trouble than a pair of old timers such as he and I. If that is the case I will withdraw my comment, which was in good faith and not mischieveous.

8: I have read and reread my comments on the thread on NSC. There is from my review of both the posts I made no personal abuse of you or your staff. If you believe otherwise I will unreservedly apologise as it's not the way I like to conduct myself. I save abuse for referees and Joey Barton.

and his subsequent response.

Thank you for your note.

I got back from Rotherham at a similar time to you last night - and have just returned home to Hove tonight after meetings in London today, so apologies for the late reply but I'm just clearing some emails that have built up during my meetings. As such, I don't intend to labour my earlier points but by way of a quick response to your message:

- as far as I'm concerned, everyone is entitled to their point of view and nobody has suggested you were stirring anything. However, some of your comments were, in my opinion, unnecessarily emotive and, in a couple of cases, simply wrong. As I was asked to comment on your NSC response by another fan, I did so. I copied you on that response as a courtesy.

- I'm not sure that our ensuring away match tickets are being used by the fans they were intended for in any way relates to any other examples of where football fans are treated differently or badly by Government or other authorities (ID is also asked for ticket collections, and in some cases entrance to, theatres and other sporting venues, both here and overseas without issue).

- our club's commercial partners do not take priority for ticket allocations. They typically receive limited tickets for home matches and, in most cases, rarely request tickets for away matches. If/when they do, we try to accommodate them in the directors' box to minimise or eliminate any impact on our supporters. Home match tickets are also often returned to the benefit of fans.

- I'm afraid I don't agree that American Express are not loyal to the Albion. They've made a very significant and very long term commitment to the club - and also to AITC. Far from focusing on the usual commercial branding and awareness objectives, Amex's Albion sponsorship aims are biased towards support for the wider community, and staff engagement and motivation.

- you and your wife have not committed an "offence" under the club's "new rules". It is the law that prevents the unauthorised sale or transfer of football match tickets (section 166, Criminal Justice Act, and the Ticket Touting, designation of football matches, Order 2007). Furthermore, the laws regarding the sale or transfer of tickets are enshrined in EFL and PL regulations.

- I'm sorry if this language or position disappoints, offends or bores you or anyone else. It is however the legislation (and regulations) that all clubs, including ours, have a responsibility to observe, monitor, police and, where necessary, act upon. In the eyes of the legislation, "touting" does not require someone to make a profit from a ticket transfer.

- again, it's a little ironic, that dozens of Albion fans were imploring our staff and stewards to act against ticket touts on Village Way and Station Approach last Tuesday evening because Albion fans were "missing out and being ripped off" and yet when other Albion fans also ask us to act to ensure away match tickets are being used legitimately, the club is attacked as being Draconian!

- yes, of course there's a difference between some examples of away match ticket transfer and the touts at Newcastle game but the net result is the same: someone, somewhere has purchased a ticket with the intent (or otherwise) of selling or passing the ticket on to the detriment of a supporter who may have been able to purchased that ticket for their own use.

- unfortunately, Kieran, whilst it's clearly hard to criticise your proposed "good Samaritan" act for the child, your scenario pre-supposes that everyone on the same loyalty points as you actually got a ticket. That doesn't always happen. So, on occasions, yes, you may well be denying someone who was entitled to the ticket ahead of the child the chance to attend a game.

- by the same token, we are expected to apply consistent policies because tickets can be - and indeed are sometimes - passed or sold on to banned supporters, supporters that go on to commit offences inside the stadium, or generally create a nuisance for other supporters. It is our club's reputation that is tarnished in such situations and our staff's time that is then used dealing with the aftermath.

- I'm afraid that if a ticket is passed or sold on to someone banned or who subsequently misbehaves in the stadium, then the supporter who sold or passed on that ticket - as well as the offender themselves - may well be "criminalised" and banned as a result. This is the very thing we are trying to prevent through this policy and through the warnings we have provided!

- clearly, we can't check every ticket - and we don't intend to. We will check those individuals that concern us and, in this regard, your profiling point was wide of the mark. Offences committed in and around our stadium, and at our away matches, range from people aged 15-55. Sadly, the issues we face at matches are not only caused by the younger generation.

- finally, I was not suggesting that you had abused me or our staff. Sadly, from my reading of the thread, others were not quite so diplomatic, hence my comment. Unfortunately, this sort of rhetoric on social media is now being played out far too often on the phone and by email to our supporter services staff, and occasionally to the faces of our stewards and catering staff.

- it may seem clever to some at the time of writing their derogatory comments, while benefitting of course from the anonymity provided by a keyboard, but when it inspires others to behave in a similar way "for real", our staff expect us to take very strong action where we can identify the individuals. To be frank, our people are sick and tired of it, and these sort of threads don't help.

Again, the club has to create policies that are fair to all, bit fair to some. Not all of them will be popular but, with perspective and all things considered, I would hope most supporters would see them as being reasonable. As with so many things we've changed, these are the "growing pains" of an expanding club and the vast majority of supporters are totally unaffected by such changes.

Kind regards, Paul

There has been further communication, but I am sure many of you have lost the will to live, so I won't post any more of it.

Fair play to PB for replying, he is big on communication, even if it stuff you don't want to hear.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Is there anyone on this thread who actually buys and uses tickets for away games for themselves ? I didn't realise it was so unusual.


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Yes, me. I am unaffected by the new rules but that does not mean I support them.

 

[BN9 BHA]

Is there anyone on this thread who actually buys and uses tickets for away games for themselves ? I didn't realise it was so unusual.


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I did for Forest, or maybe not as one of my sons may have gone in with my ticket and I had his.
Both adult tickets obviously, but I went in the ground about 20 minutes before him.

 

[Goldstone1976]

Is there anyone on this thread who actually buys and uses tickets for away games for themselves ? I didn't realise it was so unusual.


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Beneath you, Jem.

So far this season, I've bought 14, attended 10, couldn't go to 2, and 2 are in the future. At the time I bought the tix for the last 2, and still now, I expect to be able to attend both of the future games. But, shit sometimes happens. Given that the club don't offer refunds (entirely reasonably), if my circumstances change such that I can no longer go, my choices are:

1. Throw the ticket away
2. Sell/give it away to an Albion fan who now can go.

Seems a no-brainer to me, tbh.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Is there anyone on this thread who actually buys and uses tickets for away games for themselves ? I didn't realise it was so unusual.


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I'm wondering how many people on this board have never passed a ticket to someone else or received a ticket from someone else, even once

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Is there any other walk of life where, if you buy something but can't use it, you are neither allowed a refund nor allowed to sell it to someone else nor even to give it to someone else for free?

 

[Return of the Rev]

13 games in the last three seasons only one ticket bought on my fan number