Panaroma last night

[larus]

I agree with your sentiments. Where you are wrong is that you blame lefties and do-gooders, but seem unprepared to consider that right wing millionaires who see fit to slash basic state care for those most in need are equally a cause of the problem.

Ultimately, there needs to be a cultural shift away from treating the welfare state as a lifestyle choice because it doesn't matter what changes are made, there are ALWAYS going to be people who still somehow slip through the net, and those who do unfairly well out of it. A bit like life in general. But what can be changed are people's attitudes.

What is my solution? Well I think the law ought to be changed such that benefit cheats are properly punished by a potential stretch inside that perhaps exceeds the seriousness of the crime. I'd like to see some proper provisions made for those long term unemployed - I fail to see the shame in people earning their benefits by doing jobs in the community that make the country a nicer place to live.

And I'd like to see some cross party agreement on a way to tackle the problem because changing a culture costs money, and that is what needs to happen.

I would probably be viewed as 'right-wing' and my impression of you from prior posts if that you would be more 'left-wing' (sorry, I really hate those labels, but it helps to clarify my starting position).

What I found astounding is that if you have a calm debate with people from either side of the political spectrum, most of us all want the same things. I'm sure that our aspirations are fairly close, and the differences would, more than likely, be cosmetic.
We all want good services, we all want them free at the point of delivery, we all want fairness in society, we all want the rich to be made to pay their fair share, we all want the scroungers to be forced to contribute, etc.
However, as soon as politics is brought up, the generalisations start to creep in and the polarisation of views is demonstrated.

The political system fails us; both sides, all parties. It's complete crap; the confrontational style in our country makes me despair. They are (nearly) all in it for what they can get. Expenses, pensions, Non-Exec directorships, etc. They won't tell the truth about the state of the country and work together as our elected representatives for the good of the country. They won't tell the truth, as the other parties will take advantage and twist facts.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

The political system fails us; both sides, all parties. It's complete crap; the confrontational style in our country makes me despair. They are (nearly) all in it for what they can get. Expenses, pensions, Non-Exec directorships, etc. They won't tell the truth about the state of the country and work together as our elected representatives for the good of the country. They won't tell the truth, as the other parties will take advantage and twist facts.

Agree

 

[Camicus]

I am sorry, but I will not accept that assessors are sitting around hospital intensive care wards interviewing people in a coma, now come on.

I think your missing the point, it is not the fraud that is the problem, it is the threshold of those deemed not suitable for work which is be recategorized.

It seems the annual taxpayers bill for this benefit is around £12bn with over 2 million claimants, whilst there is some indicators saying that 500 000 of those claimants might be able to get a job.

Its not helpful muddying the waters with extreme examples of mistakes, no one is endorsing that kind of action.

You have said it yourself that initially there was a presumption that people were telling the truth, that really isn't a good enough management tool when dealing with such vast sums of our money.

If you do not attend your interview for whatever reason you are found fit for work so when chap in a coma didnt attend he was found fit for work accept it or don't thats up to you but that doesn't change the fact that it is happening. the same as they insist there is no quota to fill and yet if they find to many unfit for work they are disciplined and have all there cases reviewed. It doesn't matter if the sum is £1 or £12bn the assumption of fraud is unjustifiable. On a side not Vodaphones skipped tax bill is 10 times per year more than fraud from disabled benefits DWP errors account for more than fraud so why are the sick and disabled being targeted? seriously google Atos then come back to me

 

[BigGully]

Oh come on, if anyone misses a critical meeting then sanction might follow, if the reason for non attendance is because you happen to be in a coma, then I am sure that would be accepted and quickly resolved.

It seems that previously claimants had none or very little assessments therefore it is wholly reasonable for these to take place or how can you possibly know what is the correct entitlement.

It seems that with very little monitoring some with some disabilities/illnesses have claimed benefits while others with the same disability/illness have been working, its unfair.

I cannot see any modern government implementing some draconian system that denies any vulnerable person their rightful entitlement, but it requires monitoring !!

 

[Aadam]

Oh come on, if anyone misses a critical meeting then sanction might follow, if the reason for non attendance is because you happen to be in a coma, then I am sure that would be accepted and quickly resolved.

It seems that previously claimants had none or very little assessments therefore it is wholly reasonable for these to take place or how can you possibly know what is the correct entitlement.

It seems that with very little monitoring some with some disabilities/illnesses have claimed benefits while others with the same disability/illness have been working, its unfair.

I cannot see any modern government implementing some draconian system that denies any vulnerable person their rightful entitlement, but it requires monitoring !!

Then you've not been following the thousands of cases that have gone onto appeal against the Atos decision. Let me tell you how it works.

You have a disability, which prevents you from working. It might be that it's hard for you to get a job because you're always off work sick. It might be because employers don't like employing sick people. Disability living allowance covers a wide range of condition.

You get sent a letter by Atos telling you that you have to go for an appointment to assess your condition. The person you see is rarely trained to a high enough standard to understand your condition fully. They run through a points system based on computer generated questions. You have to score 15 points to keep your benefits, effectively lying on the floor dying, although in some cases people were still being told they're fit for work.

This computer asks questions like can you raise your arms. Now for most people this is a simple test, but with some conditions you might find that this is extremely painful and takes a lot out of you. The computer doesn't care, you've done it once. There's no allowance for whether you can do this repetitively.

You are then scored, and invariably told you are fit for work and your benefits are cut off, there and then, no immediate appeal or amount of supporting medical evidence helps you at this stage.. You then have to appeal, if you believe the decision is wrong. Eight or nine months later you get a court case, and this time you provide medical evidence (this is not required by Atos, apparently they know better than your doctor) if you win you get back pay of benefits. Three months later you're sent for another assessment, and despite being told you don't have to work again, you have to go through with it.

During these long months waiting for your case to be heard you have to somehow LIVE.

There was one case where a woman couldn't even go to the bathroom on her own, she needed help. And quite rightly asked what sort of person would go to work with a carer by their side to help them on the toilet.

The government could claw back this deficit a lot of other ways, rather than chasing those that are in many way defenceless. A computer assesses you, not a doctor. A computer tells you if you can work, not a doctor.

A better system would be to put the doctors, those than understand their patients in the decision making process when it comes to benefits. But the government doesn't do this because they know they wont force enough people off benefits.

 

[Garage_Doors]

Anyone watch this last night. I see nothing changes does it. Those teenagers openely admitted there is no point going to work because they get more money on benefits. Why can't this government send them on work experience to earn their benefits then. The company gets a free worker. If these teenagers don't show cut the benefits, or would it be against there human rights to do it?

I don't want to talk about the mother with four kids, smoking fags and pot all day, yet she complains about stress as one of the reasons she cannot go to work. She earns more money in benefits and help than some of us do for going out to work full time.

I want to know when this government is going to get with the programme with these type of people. It's a f&*g disgrace.

 

[Camicus]

Oh come on, if anyone misses a critical meeting then sanction might follow, if the reason for non attendance is because you happen to be in a coma, then I am sure that would be accepted and quickly resolved.

It seems that previously claimants had none or very little assessments therefore it is wholly reasonable for these to take place or how can you possibly know what is the correct entitlement.

It seems that with very little monitoring some with some disabilities/illnesses have claimed benefits while others with the same disability/illness have been working, its unfair.

I cannot see any modern government implementing some draconian system that denies any vulnerable person their rightful entitlement, but it requires monitoring !!

In any reasonable world this would be the case in the world of the Condems and Atos it isn't. You have the right of appeal but they have so many going through it takes up to a year.

 

[BigGully]

Then you've not been following the thousands of cases that have gone onto appeal against the Atos decision. Let me tell you how it works.

You have a disability, which prevents you from working. It might be that it's hard for you to get a job because you're always off work sick. It might be because employers don't like employing sick people. Disability living allowance covers a wide range of condition.

You get sent a letter by Atos telling you that you have to go for an appointment to assess your condition. The person you see is rarely trained to a high enough standard to understand your condition fully. They run through a points system based on computer generated questions. You have to score 15 points to keep your benefits, effectively lying on the floor dying, although in some cases people were still being told they're fit for work.

This computer asks questions like can you raise your arms. Now for most people this is a simple test, but with some conditions you might find that this is extremely painful and takes a lot out of you. The computer doesn't care, you've done it once. There's no allowance for whether you can do this repetitively.

You are then scored, and invariably told you are fit for work and your benefits are cut off, there and then, no immediate appeal or amount of supporting medical evidence helps you at this stage.. You then have to appeal, if you believe the decision is wrong. Eight or nine months later you get a court case, and this time you provide medical evidence (this is not required by Atos, apparently they know better than your doctor) if you win you get back pay of benefits. Three months later you're sent for another assessment, and despite being told you don't have to work again, you have to go through with it.

During these long months waiting for your case to be heard you have to somehow LIVE.

There was one case where a woman couldn't even go to the bathroom on her own, she needed help. And quite rightly asked what sort of person would go to work with a carer by their side to help them on the toilet.

The government could claw back this deficit a lot of other ways, rather than chasing those that are in many way defenceless. A computer assesses you, not a doctor. A computer tells you if you can work, not a doctor.

A better system would be to put the doctors, those than understand their patients in the decision making process when it comes to benefits. But the government doesn't do this because they know they wont force enough people off benefits.

Pretty similar to your able bodied counterparts, if you are the recipient of taxpayers money there has to be monitoring.

There are those that have the self same condition/illness as those that work, but have less inclination, such traits are not unique to able body people.

Again maybe the current system is flawed, but there needs an effort to ensure only those that need it, receive it.

 

[Camicus]

Nobody is arguing that there shouldnt be some form of assement it is a reasonable request. What is unreasonable is the way they are done and the inhumane way people are being treated and vilified in a 21st centry 1st world country

 

[BigGully]

Nobody is arguing that there shouldnt be some form of assement it is a reasonable request. What is unreasonable is the way they are done and the inhumane way people are being treated and vilified in a 21st centry 1st world country

I am not sure where this vilification is, but it isnt against those that need it.

If the system is flawed change it, but I guess the only way to ensure only those that need it receive it is to ruffle a few feathers.

I am a wee bit surprised that some within the disabled lobby seem outraged that this should even be considered, it was mentioned earlier that previously each applicant was presumed to be telling the truth.

Such a culture was bound to spawn people to unjustly maximise their benefits, the numbers of claimants have increased exponentially, it has to be addressed.

 

[Aadam]

Pretty similar to your able bodied counterparts, if you are the recipient of taxpayers money there has to be monitoring.

Like MPs and their expenses... Oh wait.

 

[BadFish]

Not going to disagree with you there. I'd seriously love to know the extent of this sort of scandal, as much as I would like to know the whether the general trend for the scummy workshy depending on hand outs for a living. Getting anecdotal evidence is easy, but I never feel we know the extent of these problems.

I would be interested to know the extent of these problems and where they fit int he scheme of all the other problems that the UK is facing at the moment. There seems to be an awful lot of focus on people defrauding the DSS but how does it compare to corporations avoiding tax or ministers taking kick backs and fiddling expenses. These people seem to be more hated that the bankers who have caused the GFC. Do they really cost us more money that these other people?

 

[BadFish]

There is paid 'work' available, but it may not be what punters would choose to do especially if the alternative is benefits. Much of the work in these parts is manual stuff picking fruit and veg on farms on minimum wages, with long hours and in all weathers. There seem to be plenty of eastern Europeans happy to do this work, but very few locals.

So you would expect a stampede for jobs with better pay and conditions that offer a skill and longer term employment prospects. However a joinery business was recently featured on local TV - the owner had repeatedly advertised vacancies for apprenticeships but couldn't believe the lack of applicants plus those that did apply didn't have a work ethic. He was frustrated that local kids couldn't turn up on time, often didn't turn up at all after 2 or 3 days and had an appalling attitude about doing the job properly. OK he wasn't paying much more than minimum wage to school leavers but they would also acquire a proper set of skills plus what looks like a steady job. The owner was desperate as he had a full order book and was obliged to import labour from eastern Europe.

The TV programme interviewed a sample of kids who had previously worked at the business but had given their jobs up as they would rather sit around in the town centre drinking with their mates than do a proper job. Seems peverse.

There is a lot of talk over here at present about the way we bring up kids (parents and teachers). We are too soft on them and never tell the truth, we tell them they can achieve anything they want and that everything they do is wonderful. Basically during childhood they never experience failure or disappointment and never learn to respond to criticism or being told the ugly truth.

This, the me me me and celebrity culture which gives them a heightened sense of their wonderfulness and the way the media promotes this idea that you can become rich and famous with really doing anything is producing a whole generation of kids who not only don't have the tools to deal with the real world but don't have the inclination and are too arrogant to go and get their hands dirty and work in a crappy environment to secure themselves a future.

 

[BadFish]

the parents need their backsides kicked , I hope my kids go on to a decent academic degree, but if its a choice between degree in leisure centre management at some crap former polytechnic , and a craft apprenticeship then I know what I will be encouraging/inducing them to do.

How difficult is it to get an apprenticeship these day? Genuine question by the way, not trying to make a point.

 

[Camicus]

Hard very hard my boy came out of school with 10 GCSE's and still couldnt get a job ended up apprenticing in France

How difficult is it to get an apprenticeship these day? Genuine question by the way, not trying to make a point.

 

[User removed 4]

How difficult is it to get an apprenticeship these day? Genuine question by the way, not trying to make a point.

i'm really not sure to be honest, but I do see the government advertising "apprenticeships" in office wo5rk etc , which I think is totally misleading , they arent apprenticeships.

 

[spig100963]

Its not just eastern europeans that are the problem with the job market. Machinery ha splayed a massive part in taking away
the unskilled workers jobs. Most jobs now consist of just being able to push the keys of a keyboard in the right order. The boys in
that documentary need proper what I call man jobs. Building, dock working, mining, jobs when you finish of a Friday you are to tired to go and cause agro. There are very few of these jobs left. I think its a shame seeing these mens lives go to waste. IMO.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

i'm really not sure to be honest, but I do see the government advertising "apprenticeships" in office wo5rk etc , which I think is totally misleading , they arent apprenticeships.

This is correct. Apprenticeships are being offered in the office where I work, which amounts to a years work and then no job at the end of it. The only value would be experience and an NVQ.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

My experience of people on job seekers is that they feel other people should do more to get them jobs. (Think you only have to apply for 3 jobs a week). I came home from uni applied for about 15 jobs in the space of a few days and a week later was working.

A sweeping generalisation that's also complete and utter bollocks. Well done for getting a job after so few applications but you are one of the lucky few. The innocence of youth !

 

[somerset]

What is my solution? Well I think the law ought to be changed such that benefit cheats are properly punished by a potential stretch inside that perhaps exceeds the seriousness of the crime..

That's a bit of radical right-wing thinking, if ever I saw it!