Panaroma last night

[Simster]

There is also this case :
Bulgarian gypsies who came to UK to get benefits are housed 3 weeks after arriving | The Sun |News

I'm not going to go into the minutae of the story, which some on here are bound to try, to deflect attention away from the f***ing scandal that they were housed 3 weeks after arrival, my question is WHY THE f*** SHOULD THEY BE HOUSED AT ALL ?

Not going to disagree with you there. I'd seriously love to know the extent of this sort of scandal, as much as I would like to know the whether the general trend for the scummy workshy depending on hand outs for a living. Getting anecdotal evidence is easy, but I never feel we know the extent of these problems.

 

[Tubby Mondays]

There is also this case :
Bulgarian gypsies who came to UK to get benefits are housed 3 weeks after arriving | The Sun |News

I'm not going to go into the minutae of the story, which some on here are bound to try, to deflect attention away from the f***ing scandal that they were housed 3 weeks after arrival, my question is WHY THE f*** SHOULD THEY BE HOUSED AT ALL ?

When I saw that in The Standard last night I knew it was one for you!

 

[User removed 4]

When I saw that in The Standard last night I knew it was one for you!

definitely not one to discuss over a beer !!

 

[Tubby Mondays]

definitely not one to discuss over a beer !!

No. Im not going to open that can of worms anywhere.

 

[Tubby Mondays]

definitely not one to discuss over a beer !!

Actually I did reply to your other PM but you were full up.

It only said something like 'peace in our time' or something so nothing important.

 

[Seagull over Canaryland]

There is paid 'work' available, but it may not be what punters would choose to do especially if the alternative is benefits. Much of the work in these parts is manual stuff picking fruit and veg on farms on minimum wages, with long hours and in all weathers. There seem to be plenty of eastern Europeans happy to do this work, but very few locals.

So you would expect a stampede for jobs with better pay and conditions that offer a skill and longer term employment prospects. However a joinery business was recently featured on local TV - the owner had repeatedly advertised vacancies for apprenticeships but couldn't believe the lack of applicants plus those that did apply didn't have a work ethic. He was frustrated that local kids couldn't turn up on time, often didn't turn up at all after 2 or 3 days and had an appalling attitude about doing the job properly. OK he wasn't paying much more than minimum wage to school leavers but they would also acquire a proper set of skills plus what looks like a steady job. The owner was desperate as he had a full order book and was obliged to import labour from eastern Europe.

The TV programme interviewed a sample of kids who had previously worked at the business but had given their jobs up as they would rather sit around in the town centre drinking with their mates than do a proper job. Seems peverse.

 

[User removed 4]

Actually I did reply to your other PM but you were full up.

It only said something like 'peace in our time' or something so nothing important.

no probs neville! we can have a drink at charlton away or something.

 

[Tubby Mondays]

no probs neville! we can have a drink at charlton away or something.

Yeah or im around at a home game. Weve got some 'mutuals' who know where to find me.

 

[User removed 4]

There is paid 'work' available, but it may not be what punters would choose to do especially if the alternative is benefits. Much of the work in these parts is manual stuff picking fruit and veg on farms on minimum wages, with long hours and in all weathers. There seem to be plenty of eastern Europeans happy to do this work, but very few locals.

So you would expect a stampede for jobs with better pay and conditions that offer a skill and longer term employment prospects. However a joinery business was recently featured on local TV - the owner had repeatedly advertised vacancies for apprenticeships but couldn't believe the lack of applicants plus those that did apply didn't have a work ethic. He was frustrated that local kids couldn't turn up on time, often didn't turn up at all after 2 or 3 days and had an appalling attitude about doing the job properly. OK he wasn't paying much more than minimum wage to school leavers but they would also acquire a proper set of skills plus what looks like a steady job. The owner was desperate as he had a full order book and was obliged to import labour from eastern Europe.

The TV programme interviewed a sample of kids who had previously worked at the business but had given their jobs up as they would rather sit around in the town centre drinking with their mates than do a proper job. Seems peverse.

the parents need their backsides kicked , I hope my kids go on to a decent academic degree, but if its a choice between degree in leisure centre management at some crap former polytechnic , and a craft apprenticeship then I know what I will be encouraging/inducing them to do.

 

[Marc1901]

where ? at whitehawk ?

Indeed.

I also done my FA Level 1 coaching course and a course called " Using sport to tackle youth crime " whilst getting my first aid and child protection etc so there is things out there for young people to do rather than sitting around and getting nowhere..

 

[User removed 4]

Indeed.

I also done my FA Level 1 coaching course and a course called " Using sport to tackle youth crime " whilst getting my first aid and child protection etc so there is things out there for young people to do rather than sitting around and getting nowhere..

I train at whitehawk as well, will probably be there next monday , I will be the bloke about 20 years older and fatter than you youingsters and will have my 11 year old with me, come and say hello.

 

[Marc1901]

Double post, IGNORE.

 

[Seagull over Canaryland]

the parents need their backsides kicked , I hope my kids go on to a decent academic degree, but if its a choice between degree in leisure centre management at some crap former polytechnic , and a craft apprenticeship then I know what I will be encouraging/inducing them to do.

I agree that a big part of the problem probably lies with a lack of 'motivation' from the kids parents - but then as some parents are 2nd or 3rd generation long term unemployed themselves they may not be the best role models either. I feel for kids in that scenario and have respect for those that can break free from that rut.

The prospect of a steady job, income and a skilled apprenticeship with a company that has a full order book would be a good start for a youngster. The world is full of those 'who can' and those 'who won't'. As an employer I would welcome those applicants having credible evidence of a work ethic. I would also be sceptical of those who appear to have used University to put off proper working life or gain a questionable academic award.

 

[BigGully]

Okay maybe I should rephrase that, they're having their benefits cut off. So they're forced into poverty or work, despite how sick it will make them.

And with regards to your last statement, try telling that to Stephen Hill. Oh wait, you can't because he is now dead, 39 days after he was declared fit to work by Atos. He was denied sickness benefits because he was told he was fit for work. He had suffered heart problems for two years and was awaiting major heart surgery, but following his 10 minute assessment he was deemed well enough to work.

A computer makes these decisions, with no regard to doctors information, no medical examinations. People with cancer and heart complications are being told to go to work (where though? Who'd employ someone on the list for major heart surgery?). In Nazi Germany the disabled and sick were seen as surplus to the task of building a mighty Reich. In Cameron’s Britain the disabled and sick are seen as surplus to the task of ‘bringing down the deficit’.

I am not familiar with Atos, but the policy to deal with disability and invalidity payments must be addressed too, as with the whole benefit system, if you are in receipt of them, then you will be the assessed with some vigour, for me that's the correct thing to do.

Should they be assessing terminally ill patients of course not and I do not believe they do, but mistakes are inevitable as its a truly massive process.

The bill to the taxpayer is £12bn per year and it is only fair that only those in need are in receipt of it, if Atol is not able to deliver a fair yet vigorous process then get someone that can, but you cannot shy away from the need for assessment.

 

[Marc1901]

I train at whitehawk as well, will probably be there next monday , I will be the bloke about 20 years older and fatter than you youingsters and will have my 11 year old with me, come and say hello.

I came down on Monday night and had a look ( With a PSG shirt on ) and heading down tonight for my first taster session. Never done boxing before but always loved watching it, new challenge for me. I will do

 

[Camicus]

I am not familiar with Atos, but the policy to deal with disability and invalidity payments must be addressed too, as with the whole benefit system, if you are in receipt of them, then you will be the assessed with some vigour, for me that's the correct thing to do.

Should they be assessing terminally ill patients of course not and I do not believe they do, but mistakes are inevitable as its a truly massive process.

The bill to the taxpayer is £12bn per year and it is only fair that only those in need are in receipt of it, if Atol is not able to deliver a fair yet vigorous process then get someone that can, but you cannot shy away from the need for assessment.

No one objects to a "fair" assesment but when they find people in a COMA fit for work or asking people in pshyc wards why after 20 sucide attempts they arnt dead I think theres a problem. At one time there wasa presumption that people were telling the truth now the presumption is that everyone is a fraudster when in fact 0.02% of claims(DWP Figures) are fraudulent. More money is wasted in errors than given in fraud. Also might be worth pointing out that Atos are given £3bn to carry out these assesments and they have a 80% appeal rate against them as well as a huge number of there Doctors and Nurses being investigated by GMC and RCN

 

[Aadam]

I am not familiar with Atos, but the policy to deal with disability and invalidity payments must be addressed too, as with the whole benefit system, if you are in receipt of them, then you will be the assessed with some vigour, for me that's the correct thing to do.

Should they be assessing terminally ill patients of course not and I do not believe they do, but mistakes are inevitable as its a truly massive process.

The bill to the taxpayer is £12bn per year and it is only fair that only those in need are in receipt of it, if Atol is not able to deliver a fair yet vigorous process then get someone that can, but you cannot shy away from the need for assessment.

Camicus pretty much nails this one. The fraudulent claims are estimated to be 0.5% of claimants, so the governments decision is to test ALL claimants to find them. In the process, declining thousands that NEED benefits. It's a shocking system. It's one that whereby those being tested are often dismissed as fit for work if their ailment is not visible, e.g., internal. The tests are ridiculous, you're asked to pick up a box, or raise your arms or pick up a coin from a desk, which if you can do once in the test, you're deemed okay to be able to do this as a repetitive task as a day job. There's no regard for mental illness, no regard for recovering patients of cancer or other illnesses. There's a serious lack of knowledge from these trained staff, e.g., asking someone with diabetes if their condition is still there? People with no limbs being asked if their situation has changed, yes, because limbs can grow back.

The governments approach, coupled with the media's witch hunt against the disabled is disgusting.

 

[tubaman]

I don't want to talk about the mother with four kids, smoking fags and pot all day, yet she complains about stress as one of the reasons she cannot go to work. She earns more money in benefits and help than some of us do for going out to work full time.

I want to know when this government is going to get with the programme with these type of people. It's a f&*g disgrace.[/QUOTE]

I thought her answer to 'What would you do if they said they had a job for you to start tomorrow?' was.....................................she didn't have an answer appart from making it clear that she wouldn't be overjoyed!

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

I agree British jobs for British workers, however there is absolutely nothing this country can do to stop the influx of workers from Eastern Europe. It's done, Labour opened the floodgates expecting only 19,000 from Poland to seek work in the UK, well they got that badly wrong didn't they?, and I don't see a policy change from either Tories or Labour to stop it in the near future either. They are scared of talking about it or challenging it, because they don't want labels. That is how pathetic immigration has become in this country.

The only ones that might are UKIP, but they are a long way off from getting any control of this country. We are going to have to live with it, and British people are going to have to compete for these jobs in their own country because nothing will change. They will need to work for less money otherwise they might be on the dole for years. It's not right at the end of the day, but what can you do apart from marching towards No.10 with your garden forks.

I think Labour were caught out trying to abide by EU regulations which declare that any EU adult citizen has the right to work anywhere in the EU. They only way to stop future unrestricted immigration from European countries is by imposing quotas and that can only be done by quitting the EU and joining EFTA who trade freely with the EU (EFTA has the same principles as the original EEC)

 

[BigGully]

No one objects to a "fair" assesment but when they find people in a COMA fit for work or asking people in pshyc wards why after 20 sucide attempts they arnt dead I think theres a problem. At one time there wasa presumption that people were telling the truth now the presumption is that everyone is a fraudster when in fact 0.02% of claims(DWP Figures) are fraudulent. More money is wasted in errors than given in fraud. Also might be worth pointing out that Atos are given £3bn to carry out these assesments and they have a 80% appeal rate against them as well as a huge number of there Doctors and Nurses being investigated by GMC and RCN

I am sorry, but I will not accept that assessors are sitting around hospital intensive care wards interviewing people in a coma, now come on.

I think your missing the point, it is not the fraud that is the problem, it is the threshold of those deemed not suitable for work which is be recategorised.

It seems the annual taxpayers bill for this benefit is around £12bn with over 2 million claimants, whilst there is some indicators saying that 500 000 of those claimants might be able to get a job.

Its not helpful muddying the waters with extreme examples of mistakes, no one is endorsing that kind of action.

You have said it yourself that initially there was a presumption that people were telling the truth, that really isnt a good enough management tool when dealing with such vast sums of our money.