[Technology] Owning an EV without a personal charger...

[Commander]

That £44k figure will be rather distorted by the fact that the market is dominated by Tesla and upper-market brands/models currently. On the other hand, you can get a Zoe for under £30k, and the VW ID3 is just a touch over £30k. Those prices are starting to come down as well - partly with increased competition, and partly due to the rapid pace of R&D that's bringing down the costs of batteries (that's the cost per mile of range, so at the moment while range still needs to be increased it's not fully flowing through into RRP - but it will).

More to the point, while the upfront cost can be eye-watering, the "total cost of ownership" for an EV is already lower than that for an ICE. EVs are cheaper to maintain once you have them, and charging an EV is cheaper than filling up an ICE. So as long as you can afford the initial outlay (and I know, that's not the case for many) the EV is the better option. Or, if you can afford the monthly cost of a lease, then leasing is definitely a good starting point. You might pay more to the leasing company, but that is counterbalanced by the reduced running costs.

Absolutely the costs need to come down. And they will - some are predicting they'll reach RRP price parity with ICE by around 2027. They'll have become a clear "best option" choice before then, though.





I know that post is laced with sarcasm (or at least I hope so) - but this is already reality in some areas. Seen plenty of EVs being charged from lamp posts in London, for example.

I got my e-Golf for £250 a month, with no deposit. 3 year lease deal. Surely that is within the reach of most people who run a car?

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

That’s my concern too. We still have power stations fuelled by gas, oil, and coal, although renewables are slowing growing.
There’s also a concern over production and later disposing of lithium batteries.

I find this with pretty much every consumer decision I make. Shall I cause this damage here? or this damage over here?

Renewables need to grow much faster.

 

[Audax]

There’s also a concern over production and later disposing of lithium batteries.

Should ease in the coming years. New battery tech is on the horizon that's going to be a lot more enviro friendly. The existing batteries are also already more recyclable than the anti-EV propagandists would have you believe. A lot of the batteries sold for home and/or industrial use (in combo with solar panels) are actually reconditioned car batteries. Those that can't be reconditioned can now be majority recycled - VW opened a pilot factory for recycling car batteries earlier this year with an aim to recover at least 90% of the raw materials.

 

[Dave the OAP]

I might be wrong but I think the big problem with salary sacrifice schemes is they can have a detrimental effect on calculating your pensionable pay.

Not in our company case.

They gross up your pensionable pay to what it would have been and calculate the 5% company contribution based on that. For redundancy etc, that is also grossed up.

Salary sacrifice for companies benefit is the savings on ERS NIC as that is paid on the gross after SS, not before. Our company as a lot of ones have done split the savings of the ERS NIC with themselves and a percentage going into and extra payment into you pension pot

 

[zefarelly]

That £44k figure will be rather distorted by the fact that the market is dominated by Tesla and upper-market brands/models currently. On the other hand, you can get a Zoe for under £30k, and the VW ID3 is just a touch over £30k. Those prices are starting to come down as well - partly with increased competition, and partly due to the rapid pace of R&D that's bringing down the costs of batteries (that's the cost per mile of range, so at the moment while range still needs to be increased it's not fully flowing through into RRP - but it will).

More to the point, while the upfront cost can be eye-watering, the "total cost of ownership" for an EV is already lower than that for an ICE. EVs are cheaper to maintain once you have them, and charging an EV is cheaper than filling up an ICE. So as long as you can afford the initial outlay (and I know, that's not the case for many) the EV is the better option. Or, if you can afford the monthly cost of a lease, then leasing is definitely a good starting point. You might pay more to the leasing company, but that is counterbalanced by the reduced running costs.

Absolutely the costs need to come down. And they will - some are predicting they'll reach RRP price parity with ICE by around 2027. They'll have become a clear "best option" choice before then, though.





I know that post is laced with sarcasm (or at least I hope so) - but this is already reality in some areas. Seen plenty of EVs being charged from lamp posts in London, for example.

increasingly popular.

 

[Audax]

I got my e-Golf for £250 a month, with no deposit. 3 year lease deal. Surely that is within the reach of most people who run a car?

My top-spec Zoe (GT-Line rapid) is just a touch under £300 per month over 4 years, with maintenance and tyres included. But that's also high mileage (50k over the 4 years) - I'm expecting to be back to the office soon and that'll result in big miles that I suspect most won't need.

 

[Bozza]

I got my e-Golf for £250 a month, with no deposit. 3 year lease deal. Surely that is within the reach of most people who run a car?

I think you're speaking from a position of relative prosperity there. Take us...

We have a (petrol) Honda Civic bought when it was 3-4 years old. It's reliable and reasonably economical. It does a few miles most days on short journeys - we do very few journeys of any real distance at all. In many ways, the perfect use case household for EV ownership.

We probably fill it up once a month or so, which costs us £50, give or take.

It gets through the MOT first time each year, so the cost there is negligible and as it's a small petrol, tax isn't a great deal either. So, all in, it's probably costing us £70 a month.

So, right now, to lease a car for £250pm, we'd be paying £180 extra for no real discernible benefit to us at all. A lot of people could not afford that kind of extra outlay from their household budget.

 

[m@goo]

That’s my concern too. We still have power stations fuelled by gas, oil, and coal, although renewables are slowing growing.
There’s also a concern over production and later disposing of lithium batteries.

But these aren't reasons to not convert to EV. These issues will be improved in coming years and running an EV is still less harmful than than an ICE.

 

[Greg Bobkin]

It's like allowing bikes on trains. Only currently really works with miniscule numbers. Will never gain traction while it relies on a couple of token well-meaning power points in the street

Really? Take a look at the Zap-Map app and you'll see there are HUNDREDS of charging points between Worthing and Lewes, which is where the OP is concerned about. Yes, it takes a bit of planning/forward thinking to run an EV with no home charging, but to dismiss it out of hand is daft.

And as for 'miniscule numbers'? There were more than 30,000 EVs sold in September 32,721 – just 5,000 fewer than were sold in the whole of 2020. That's a 15.2% market share for EVs and higher sales than diesels for the fourth month in a row. More than 125,000 have been sold this year

 

[beorhthelm]

Really? Take a look at the Zap-Map app and you'll see there are HUNDREDS of charging points between Worthing and Lewes, which is where the OP is concerned about. Yes, it takes a bit of planning/forward thinking to run an EV with no home charging, but to dismiss it out of hand is daft.

And as for 'miniscule numbers'? There were more than 30,000 EVs sold in September 32,721 – just 5,000 fewer than were sold in the whole of 2020. That's a 15.2% market share for EVs and higher sales than diesels for the fourth month in a row. More than 125,000 have been sold this year

i dont think highlighting a major obstacle to adoption is dismissing. there are presently MILLIONS of drivers who would not have access to their own charge point, with a very very different usage profile to existing fuel stations.

on street lights, its obvious and easy to do something there. however the existing cabling is designed for low current lights, not high current battery recharging. its going to need wholesale upgrade not just some token conversions in some streets. its not technically challenging, its just not easily absorbed cost wise, middle earners will depend on leasing model while lower earners will be priced out altogether.

 

[Seagull27]

I think you're speaking from a position of relative prosperity there. Take us...

We have a (petrol) Honda Civic bought when it was 3-4 years old. It's reliable and reasonably economical. It does a few miles most days on short journeys - we do very few journeys of any real distance at all. In many ways, the perfect use case household for EV ownership.

We probably fill it up once a month or so, which costs us £50, give or take.

It gets through the MOT first time each year, so the cost there is negligible and as it's a small petrol, tax isn't a great deal either. So, all in, it's probably costing us £70 a month.

So, right now, to lease a car for £250pm, we'd be paying £180 extra for no real discernible benefit to us at all. A lot of people could not afford that kind of extra outlay from their household budget.

How much did you buy the car for though? [MENTION=2095]Commander[/MENTION] says he didn't pay a deposit, so that monthly cost also includes the cost of the car itself (perhaps minus a final settlement if he chose to go for PCP financing).

Of course a significant chunk will also be interest so adds more to the total over the course of the lease, but actually I'd argue that you might be coming from a position of (relative) prosperity if you were able to buy your car outright in the first place.

 

[Stat Brother]

I think you're speaking from a position of relative prosperity there. Take us...

We have a (petrol) Honda Civic bought when it was 3-4 years old. It's reliable and reasonably economical. It does a few miles most days on short journeys - we do very few journeys of any real distance at all. In many ways, the perfect use case household for EV ownership.

We probably fill it up once a month or so, which costs us £50, give or take.

It gets through the MOT first time each year, so the cost there is negligible and as it's a small petrol, tax isn't a great deal either. So, all in, it's probably costing us £70 a month.

So, right now, to lease a car for £250pm, we'd be paying £180 extra for no real discernible benefit to us at all. A lot of people could not afford that kind of extra outlay from their household budget.

That reads like what you actually need is reliable and affordable public transport linked with a safe cycling infrastructure.
As opposed to another car just with a different engine.

 

[Audax]

I think you're speaking from a position of relative prosperity there. Take us...

We have a (petrol) Honda Civic bought when it was 3-4 years old. It's reliable and reasonably economical. It does a few miles most days on short journeys - we do very few journeys of any real distance at all. In many ways, the perfect use case household for EV ownership.

We probably fill it up once a month or so, which costs us £50, give or take.

It gets through the MOT first time each year, so the cost there is negligible and as it's a small petrol, tax isn't a great deal either. So, all in, it's probably costing us £70 a month.

So, right now, to lease a car for £250pm, we'd be paying £180 extra for no real discernible benefit to us at all. A lot of people could not afford that kind of extra outlay from their household budget.

For someone like yourself, I'd argue that there's no driving need (*ahem) to make the shift immediately. But it would be worth considering once that Civic starts costing you money for maintenance and repairs and you get that niggling thought in the back of your mind that it's time to replace.

Give it another 3-4 years and the second hand market will start to grow off the back of the current (*ahem again) growth in the new market. A lot of the new car growth today will be 3 or 4 year leases, and those cars will be absolutely acceptable second hand options when they get handed back to the lease company.

 

[Bozza]

How much did you buy the car for though? [MENTION=2095]Commander[/MENTION] says he didn't pay a deposit, so that monthly cost also includes the cost of the car itself (perhaps minus a final settlement if he chose to go for PCP financing).

Of course a significant chunk will also be interest so adds more to the total over the course of the lease, but actually I'd argue that you might be coming from a position of (relative) prosperity if you were able to buy your car outright in the first place.

Good point. I think it was about £10k, from what I recall and that was, at a guess, around six years ago. There's nothing about the car today that gives me reason to believe it won't give us another four years service, so that would add another c£80 a month (£10k / 10 / 12) to the cost of ownership of the Civic over the time I expect to have it.

And I wasn't suggesting that [MENTION=2095]Commander[/MENTION] is more prosperous than me, although I'm pretty sure he is! But I think finding an extra £170 per month from this point - given the Civic is a sunk cost, albeit with a residual worth - would be a stretch for many households. I certainly wouldn't do it right now, for example. However, when the time does come for us to consider changing the Civic, it seems likely that EVs will be a compelling choice all round.

 

[Bozza]

For someone like yourself, I'd argue that there's no driving need (*ahem) to make the shift immediately. But it would be worth considering once that Civic starts costing you money for maintenance and repairs and you get that niggling thought in the back of your mind that it's time to replace.

Give it another 3-4 years and the second hand market will start to grow off the back of the current (*ahem again) growth in the new market. A lot of the new car growth today will be 3 or 4 year leases, and those cars will be absolutely acceptable second hand options when they get handed back to the lease company.

Agreed - our posts overlapped, but we arrived at pretty much the same conclusion.

I've spent two hours researching and reading about current EV options because of this thread, so I'm far more educated on the subject than I was last night!

 

[Commander]

How much did you buy the car for though? [MENTION=2095]Commander[/MENTION] says he didn't pay a deposit, so that monthly cost also includes the cost of the car itself (perhaps minus a final settlement if he chose to go for PCP financing).

Of course a significant chunk will also be interest so adds more to the total over the course of the lease, but actually I'd argue that you might be coming from a position of (relative) prosperity if you were able to buy your car outright in the first place.

This was my point- it's a lease car, so £250 a month is all it costs me, and if something goes wrong with it then someone collects it and drops me another one. It must cost around £300 a month to run, with no initial outlay, and no balloon payment at the end. I understand not everybody can afford £300 a month on a car, but when you take the cost over the course of the three year lease, it doesn't seem like a lot of money. I can't imagine most people with a family of 4 spend much less than £10K over 3 years on a car, do they? Maybe I'm being unrealistic, I don't know.

I wasn't suggesting that [MENTION=2095]Commander[/MENTION] is more prosperous than me, although I'm pretty sure he is!

You're not fooling anyone there big dog x

 

[highflyer]

I think you're speaking from a position of relative prosperity there. Take us...

We have a (petrol) Honda Civic bought when it was 3-4 years old. It's reliable and reasonably economical. It does a few miles most days on short journeys - we do very few journeys of any real distance at all. In many ways, the perfect use case household for EV ownership.

We probably fill it up once a month or so, which costs us £50, give or take.

It gets through the MOT first time each year, so the cost there is negligible and as it's a small petrol, tax isn't a great deal either. So, all in, it's probably costing us £70 a month.

So, right now, to lease a car for £250pm, we'd be paying £180 extra for no real discernible benefit to us at all. A lot of people could not afford that kind of extra outlay from their household budget.

We moved to EV for a variety of reasons, but we needed to change. While have a relatively low income, our outgoings are also pretty low.

I reckon it's costing us around an extra £100 or so a month compared to not going electric. That's a cost we can handle, and I want to contribute to the momentum towards electric. It's not just about discernable benefit to me, but I fully appreciate for many it's not yet affordable.

My rough calculations for this figure are:

• We are paying £240/month (including a service package)
• We'd otherwise have paid for a decent used petrol vehicle probably around £100/month
• Fuel savings are £40-£50/month (and going up all the time!).

We will need to either trade-in, give it back, or pay off quite a big sum in 4 years time. My expectation is that costs will have come down and we'll transfer the funding agreement on to a lower cost, higher spec EV at that point. But that's a bit of a risk.

On the other hand, there may be further savings long term once we can charge at low cost times during the night and/or once we have solar panels with a trickle charge system and also a lot of evidence that maintainence costs for EV will be significantly lower over a vehicle lifetime. And of course if the cost of fuel continues to rise...

My view is that EV is not yet a choice for everyone, but probably makes sense for more people than are currently thinking about it. They are lovely to drive too.

The people I'd like to see go Electric first are the many local (to me) families that are driving around in new/nearly new Chelsea tractors. I'm thinking they can probably afford it.

 

[Seagull27]

Good point. I think it was about £10k, from what I recall and that was, at a guess, around six years ago. There's nothing about the car today that gives me reason to believe it won't give us another four years service, so that would add another c£80 a month (£10k / 10 / 12) to the cost of ownership of the Civic over the time I expect to have it.

And I wasn't suggesting that [MENTION=2095]Commander[/MENTION] is more prosperous than me, although I'm pretty sure he is! But I think finding an extra £170 per month from this point - given the Civic is a sunk cost, albeit with a residual worth - would be a stretch for many households. I certainly wouldn't do it right now, for example. However, when the time does come for us to consider changing the Civic, it seems likely that EVs will be a compelling choice all round.

I suppose it depends on your savings vs disposable income, and is more an argument of financing vs buying a car outright.

We've just got a new car as the 18 year old Yaris finally gave up. As we bought a house recently, we don't have much in savings and could realistically afford about £5k at this moment in time. However by financing, we have got a car valued at £18k, for just under £300pm over 5 years with a £5k deposit (which is affordable for us, as much as I hate paying interest, and the wife wanted something a bit bigger with family planning in mind).

We could have therefore afforded a lower end EV, which I think is the argument being made here, but I appreciate not everyone is in that position.

We actually went for a hybrid as we don't have any off-street parking and therefore means of home charging. But I was very tempted by something like a Leaf.

 

[nwgull]

That's a good point. My drive to work starts at 6:20AM and in the dead of winter it can be very cold. Hopefully by then my workplace with have some chargers.

One of the great things about having an EV is that you can plug it in overnight and set a timer to pre-heat the car so it's all defrosted and nice and toasty inside when you set off for work at 7am on a winters morning (you can also remotely start the AC on hot sunny days so that you're not getting into an oven for your drive home). I appreciate that not having access to your own charge point at home precludes this.

As for practicalities without the charge point, it depends on where you live and work. I had my drive done recently, which put my charge point out of action for about 3 weeks, in which time I was fine using public chargers to top up (my iPace does 250 miles with about 15-20% reduction in cold weather). Was pleased to have the convenience and better value of home charging back when they'd finished though, so you'd have to factor in how often you'd need to top up for your own personal use.

 

[m@goo]

One of the great things about having an EV is that you can plug it in overnight and set a timer to pre-heat the car so it's all defrosted and nice and toasty inside when you set off for work at 7am on a winters morning (you can also remotely start the AC on hot sunny days so that you're not getting into an oven for your drive home). I appreciate that not having access to your own charge point at home precludes this.

As for practicalities without the charge point, it depends on where you live and work. I had my drive done recently, which put my charge point out of action for about 3 weeks, in which time I was fine using public chargers to top up (my iPace does 250 miles with about 15-20% reduction in cold weather). Was pleased to have the convenience and better value of home charging back when they'd finished though, so you'd have to factor in how often you'd need to top up for your own personal use.

I do over 200 miles a week just for work and unless my workplace gets chargers installed I'm reluctant to take the plunge.