[Technology] Owning an EV without a personal charger...

[pb21]

The electric car I was in stopped after about 10 miles , the owner a friend , didn’t know why but it was a big pain . We had to get towed to a charging point !

The remark about a 4x4 was tongue in cheek …

I was in a petrol car that broke down once.

 

[Johnny RoastBeef]

The electric car I was in stopped after about 10 miles , the owner a friend , didn’t know why but it was a big pain . We had to get towed to a charging point !

The remark about a 4x4 was tongue in cheek …

Electric vehicles shouldn't be towed, the electric motors will burn out.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

I think it depends on what model you get and what capacity. We have an EV (Nissan Leaf) which round here, with the hills etc we can realistically get 100 miles on a full charge. We've got a home charger, and because we use the car probably 4 or 5 times a week for short journeys charge maybe 2 times a week. We do long trips from time to time, to see family in the midlands, and can do that charging twice (could do it with just one charge, but we're extra cautious). It only takes us an hour longer than it took us in our petrol car and costs us 1p a mile max. We've only once ever had to queue for a charging point.

We're looking at upgrading next year to one with more capacity, and also looking to move house in the next couple of years. We reckon if we can get a car with 200 miles+ capacity then we won't need a home charger anymore because the infrastructure is already good enough for the amount of mileage we do to charge once a week at a public charger (30 - 60 minutes stopped in a car park while we do the shopping) and we'd be fine.

There's loads of chargers around Brighton. The new buildings around Lewes Road Aldi have over 50 public charging points, Aldi itself has half a dozen, there's loads on the streets, increasing moves to get lamposts converted. A surprising amount of the country is the same. A lot of the stories about EV are just scare stories, but to answer your question if you've got one with enough mileage there's nothing to worry about not having a home charger.

Most supermarkets have free charge points. Most Tesco stores have recently had free EV charging points installed, provided by VW: See here https://pod-point.com/rollout/tesco-ev-charging Which means you can charge your car for free whilst you shop. I know this won't replace charging at home, but if you only need to charge once a week, a hour on a rapid charger at Tesco / Aldi / Morrisons will put a big dent in that.

Workplace charging is an option for some people, but obviously is reliant upon working for a company that 1. Requires you to commute to the premises 2. Has installed chargers.

Some areas / councils are also installing on-street charging infrastructure, either from lamposts or newly installed charge points, but these are currently few and far between.

Re the comment about misleading range, you can find the 'real world' range for all EVs here: https://ev-database.uk/cheatsheet/range-electric-car

 

[thedonkeycentrehalf]

Given the changes in battery technology etc, a lot of people are looking at leasing, especially with the tax break available.

This article is a useful introduction: https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/oct/09/electric-cars-cut-cost-best-used-deals-tax-break

 

[m@goo]

Given the changes in battery technology etc, a lot of people are looking at leasing, especially with the tax break available.

This article is a useful introduction: https://www.theguardian.com/money/2021/oct/09/electric-cars-cut-cost-best-used-deals-tax-break

I'm a motability user so am basically leasing the car. I'd need to order around early May next year depending on model. It might be a bit too soon where charging infrastructure is concerned though.

 

[beorhthelm]

Then we must increase renewable energy yes? Not stop buying EVs.

maybe both. as in we simply cant expect to replace the current vehicle fleet.

There's been a bit of talk that EVs could actually end up being beneficial to the network.

still need to generate a large amount. the current energy use for transport is about 40% total consumption. renewables are about 20% generation. even with clever charging/discharging theres a large gap to fill, before we get to the domestic and industrial uses switching.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

I think [MENTION=33374]Audax[/MENTION] is referring to Vehicle to Grid technology, which would allow home EV batteries to be connected to the grid to allow 2 way energy transfer. This would mean that your car, which might have a battery of 70 or 80kwh can be used to balance the grid during periods of low or high demand. e.g. During days where there is a surplus of renewables, your car would charge, to cope with the excess electricity, whereas during periods of peak demand (4-7pm) your car would pass electricity back to grid. Effectively all of the EVs would operate as a MASSIVE national battery to add to the UK's storage capacity.

See here for a better description https://www.virta.global/vehicle-to-grid-v2g?

Nissan are the 1st company to offer V2G from their cars.

 

[AmexRuislip]

Depends on the manufacturer (as it always has with ICE cars as well!)

I've got a 2020 Renault Zoe. They quote "up to" 245 miles range from the 52kWh battery. Earlier this year I did a few trips into London from Uckfield. That involved A22, M25, M40, A40 and then some roads around Baker Street to get to where we needed to be. So realistically, a good description of "mixed" driving. Weather in all cases was good.

I was getting almost bang on 245 miles range.

Where it all changes is in winter: once temperatures start dropping to the point you need to start using heating, and the days get shorter and your lights are on more frequently, the range will drop. A lot. I did a similar trip December last year (just not into London proper, only as far as Uxbridge). My estimate for range on that trip (it was also wet, so wipers running etc) was closer to 160 miles than 245.

Renault, for their part, are pretty transparent about this. They've got a range calculator on their site (it's rough and ready, but gives you a good idea) that clearly demonstrates the impact that weather, and having heating or air con on, will have on range.



Anyway: going back to the original question. Owning an EV without a personal charger:

I have a personal charger for mine. I've never in my first 12 months of owning the Zoe used a charger away from home. Lock downs and WFH have made that easy.

However: I could probably make it work without a home charger. My workplace (once I start going back) provides charging points already. And locally, if I need a cheeky topup, Tesco in either Uckfield or Lewes have chargers available. They are also free to use at the 7kW charge rate. Any Tesco with its own carpark will eventually have EV charge points (a lot already do).

You've also got the likes of Shell buying into EV infrastructure - they're currently converting a former petrol/diesel forecourt in Fulham into an EV forecourt. No use to us in the SE, but it's the direction things are heading. I heard Tesla are planning to make their charger locations available for non-Tesla owners as well (may have done already?)


Looking at timing - late next year would be a good time to start looking. Infrastructure rollout will be a bit further along. But ... you might be slightly too early for the next big step in EV tech. I've got 3 years left on my lease for the Zoe. Deliberately took a 4 year lease because I'm expecting the next big steps will begin appearing 2023 onwards. 2022 will be all about consolidating the gains made this year.

Good job you weren't caught up here on Sun and Mon last, a lot of chaos for all, delays and a lot of angry motorists......

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

I think [MENTION=33374]Audax[/MENTION] is referring to Vehicle to Grid technology, which would allow home EV batteries to be connected to the grid to allow 2 way energy transfer. This would mean that your car, which might have a battery of 70 or 80kwh can be used to balance the grid during periods of low or high demand. e.g. During days where there is a surplus of renewables, your car would charge, to cope with the excess electricity, whereas during periods of peak demand (4-7pm) your car would pass electricity back to grid. Effectively all of the EVs would operate as a MASSIVE national battery to add to the UK's storage capacity.

See here for a better description https://www.virta.global/vehicle-to-grid-v2g?

Nissan are the 1st company to offer V2G from their cars.

I'd not heard about this before. It's a brilliant idea.

 

[nickbrighton]

But arguments like this are just excuses, not reasons not to go EV. And where I live in Worthing there are many charge points locally.

The more people that take up EVs the sooner the infrastructure will improve. People keep using excuses like EVs are still bad for the environment. Yes, they are but nowhere near as bad as ICE cars. Most arguments against EVs aren't really valid. The arguments should be switched to improving the practices involved in making EVs and the power they need be it more wind farms or finding an alternative to cobalt.

I'd suggest - well certainly in this town anyways - that for most it's plenty hard enough to find a parking spot near your front door. Let alone one with an EV charging point. As things stand it's pure la-la land

I have to agree with THPP, its not an excuse. If someone is considering going for an EV, then its a valid reason. You have to consider everything, and if you live in an area without private parking, and problematic parking on the street then it may simply not be practical to get an EV if you cant realistically charge the thing. Until recently the amount of time I could park on the street in a place that would enable me to string wire to the car was probably one day out of ten. The other days it was pot luck on whether I could even park in the street, sometimes ending up two or three roads away. My work didnt have charging points, and therefore an electric car simply would be impractical.

So for a large % of the population EV are simply non starters until such time as the infrastructure is in place. To glibly say its an excuse and if more people got them it would improve things is all well and good for those lucky enough to have private driveways, and charging points available, but the reality is that most of us aren't in that position so THPPs "la-la-land " comment is correct for most of the population.

 

[Audax]

I think [MENTION=33374]Audax[/MENTION] is referring to Vehicle to Grid technology, which would allow home EV batteries to be connected to the grid to allow 2 way energy transfer. This would mean that your car, which might have a battery of 70 or 80kwh can be used to balance the grid during periods of low or high demand. e.g. During days where there is a surplus of renewables, your car would charge, to cope with the excess electricity, whereas during periods of peak demand (4-7pm) your car would pass electricity back to grid. Effectively all of the EVs would operate as a MASSIVE national battery to add to the UK's storage capacity.

See here for a better description https://www.virta.global/vehicle-to-grid-v2g?

Nissan are the 1st company to offer V2G from their cars.

Yes, that's exactly what I was talking about. It's already possible with home batteries (if you know what you're doing, I believe you can sometimes make money out of it - effectively becoming an electricity trader buying low and selling high). Smoothing out the supply/demand curves in the grid is just as important as increasing the overall renewables supply. IIRC there's a scheme where some power generators are paid to *not* produce energy during certain times of day in order to smooth things out.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

I have to agree with THPP, its not an excuse. If someone is considering going for an EV, then its a valid reason. You have to consider everything, and if you live in an area without private parking, and problematic parking on the street then it may simply not be practical to get an EV if you cant realistically charge the thing. Until recently the amount of time I could park on the street in a place that would enable me to string wire to the car was probably one day out of ten. The other days it was pot luck on whether I could even park in the street, sometimes ending up two or three roads away. My work didnt have charging points, and therefore an electric car simply would be impractical.

So for a large % of the population EV are simply non starters until such time as the infrastructure is in place. To glibly say its an excuse and if more people got them it would improve things is all well and good for those lucky enough to have private driveways, and charging points available, but the reality is that most of us aren't in that position so THPPs "la-la-land " comment is correct for most of the population.

The availability of parking and the mix of houses with / without driveways are very different in Worthing to Brighton. I can imagine there are large parts of Brighton where the ability to park in front of your house is impossible.

However, you'd hope a green council would be working to improve this. They seem to be doing something https://www.brighton-hove.gov.uk/co...ety/drive-ride/electric-vehicles-and-charging

Brighton has a very different 'take' on vehicles though, and perhaps they are ahead of the rest of us, and we all need to review our need to own a car. After all, for many of us, it will spend 95% of the time sitting on your drive. If you're using it as a battery then it's doing something, but for most of us, it's a large cost we under-utilise.

The future might be shared ownership of cars, like the bikes you can use in London / Brighton etc. A fleet of small, light EVs, with short ranges for City use only, that you can unlock with an app and return to hubs across the city/outskirts. That might be a better model for cities.

 

[Papa Lazarou]

Yes, that's exactly what I was talking about. It's already possible with home batteries (if you know what you're doing, I believe you can sometimes make money out of it - effectively becoming an electricity trader buying low and selling high). Smoothing out the supply/demand curves in the grid is just as important as increasing the overall renewables supply. IIRC there's a scheme where some power generators are paid to *not* produce energy during certain times of day in order to smooth things out.

Yes. Octopus Energy's agile tariff gave people the option to 'trade' energy between peak / high cost periods vs the cheaper overnight rates. (not a tariff I'd recommend at the moment without a battery and the peak costs are eye watering at the moment).

Moixa is an example of a company that provide battery / controller solutions that allow you to leverage these differences. https://www.moixa.com/blog-time-of-use-optimisation/

 

[Audax]

Yes. Octopus Energy's agile tariff gave people the option to 'trade' energy between peak / high cost periods vs the cheaper overnight rates. (not a tariff I'd recommend at the moment without a battery and the peak costs are eye watering at the moment).

Moixa is an example of a company that provide battery / controller solutions that allow you to leverage these differences. https://www.moixa.com/blog-time-of-use-optimisation/

If / when I finally decide it's the right time to get a home battery (or, more likely, when I get a v2g car in 3 years time), I believe my home charger will allow me to sort it out. The myenergi products are already pretty smart, and have Octopus integration. I'll be switching to Octopus in January (what a great time for my fix to be ending...).

 

[Papa Lazarou]

If / when I finally decide it's the right time to get a home battery (or, more likely, when I get a v2g car in 3 years time), I believe my home charger will allow me to sort it out. The myenergi products are already pretty smart, and have Octopus integration. I'll be switching to Octopus in January (what a great time for my fix to be ending...).

Moixa wasn't the company I was thinking of. It was this lot https://www.givenergy.co.uk/

Myenergi seem to do that same.

What I want is solar on the roof, a home battery, all heating electric powered (air sourced heat pump or whatever is the most efficient), a family EV on the drive also available for storage, plus selling excess back to the grid as discussed above. Currently I have none of this!

 

[beorhthelm]

I think [MENTION=33374]Audax[/MENTION] is referring to Vehicle to Grid technology, which would allow home EV batteries to be connected to the grid to allow 2 way energy transfer. This would mean that your car, which might have a battery of 70 or 80kwh can be used to balance the grid during periods of low or high demand. e.g. During days where there is a surplus of renewables, your car would charge, to cope with the excess electricity, whereas during periods of peak demand (4-7pm) your car would pass electricity back to grid. Effectively all of the EVs would operate as a MASSIVE national battery to add to the UK's storage capacity.

See here for a better description https://www.virta.global/vehicle-to-grid-v2g?

Nissan are the 1st company to offer V2G from their cars.

thats a clever way to deal with variable supply. it doesnt solve the core problem of producing the energy in the first place.

 

[Audax]

Moixa wasn't the company I was thinking of. It was this lot https://www.givenergy.co.uk/

Myenergi seem to do that same.

What I want is solar on the roof, a home battery, all heating electric powered (air sourced heat pump or whatever is the most efficient), a family EV on the drive also available for storage, plus selling excess back to the grid as discussed above. Currently I have none of this!

I'm part way there - but it's a bit of a frankenstein.

We've got the solar panels on the roof, done long enough ago that we're on the lucrative FIT scheme (assumes we send 50% of the power we generate to the grid and pays us for it whether we do or not) that the Tories have since killed off. We then retrofitted a hot water power diverter that detects when we're sending energy to the grid and diverts it (if the water isn't hot) into the hot water system. That's reduced our gas bill a little - June/July were both sub-£13 for gas. And then last year I got the EV and the myenergi home charger that gives us a lot more visibility and control over our power usage in the house.

If gas prices remain high, an air source heat pump is probably the next step. 6 months ago it wasn't economic to replace gas boiler, but with the gas price where it is now it would be. Looked into home battery last year, and had a quote, but it looked like it wasn't going to pay itself off at the time. But I didn't have the information I have now showing exactly how much energy we send back to the grid etc.

 

[nickbrighton]

Moixa wasn't the company I was thinking of. It was this lot https://www.givenergy.co.uk/

Myenergi seem to do that same.

What I want is solar on the roof, a home battery, all heating electric powered (air sourced heat pump or whatever is the most efficient), a family EV on the drive also available for storage, plus selling excess back to the grid as discussed above. Currently I have none of this!

The main problem with installing renewables is simply the cost of installation and purchase. I think its a case of if you build with renewables then the cost is not much different than if you built with traditional ,however the cost of converting can be eyewatering, and take decades to recoup, especially as the grants and feed in tarrifs are no longer as attractive .If the Government were serious about the whole EV, Renewable thing it would legislate that all new builds should be renewable powered unless its not possible, and provide a proper program for installing on street charging. The former shouldn't be that difficult as the cost would fall on developers and wouldn't be prohibitive as similar costs to traditional. The recharging network is a different matter though, the costs involved in providing a realistic network would be staggering, and so, until such time as its possible to recharge in a similar time and way as petrol/diesel (ie pull up to a charge station, plug in for a few mins, and go) the take up will be comparatively low

 

[highflyer]

We have got an EV (and switched to Octopus).

So far all excellent.Very nice to drive, range as advertised (245mile...as above), all very simple to use. And obviously in the last few weeks, the smugness levels have gone through the roof.

But I wouldn't recommend it yet if you can't charge from home, OR be confident of having a charger available where you park overnight.
I suspect this will now happen pretty soon and you'll be good to go. But not yet in my opinion.

 

[Audax]

The main problem with installing renewables is simply the cost of installation and purchase. I think its a case of if you build with renewables then the cost is not much different than if you built with traditional ,however the cost of converting can be eyewatering, and take decades to recoup, especially as the grants and feed in tarrifs are no longer as attractive .If the Government were serious about the whole EV, Renewable thing it would legislate that all new builds should be renewable powered unless its not possible, and provide a proper program for installing on street charging. The former shouldn't be that difficult as the cost would fall on developers and wouldn't be prohibitive as similar costs to traditional. The recharging network is a different matter though, the costs involved in providing a realistic network would be staggering, and so, until such time as its possible to recharge in a similar time and way as petrol/diesel (ie pull up to a charge station, plug in for a few mins, and go) the take up will be comparatively low

Yep - it's not the panels themselves that cost, it's the installation - hiring scaffolding and all the rest of it. Absolutely agree that all new builds should have solar fitted by default, it's the far cheaper way of doing it.

Also agree that it's become a lot less attractive since the government killed the original FIT scheme. The new one they replaced it with is no where near as good at providing the return on the investment. I got ours done in time to be on the old FIT scheme, and for us we're now into the profit zone. It took 6-7 years to get there, granted, but we could afford the up-front at the time and it's kept our bills down (and provided additional income) since then. By this time next year the solar will also have paid off the hot water diverter.