Organ donation-Presumed consent debate.....

[binky]

Excellent post !

Purrrrr.....

 

[1066familyman]

It's really nice to see a debate that has well reasoned, passionate opinions on both sides and that doesn't descend into abuse and, well...binfestery...on here for a change.

Not that I'm against the odd binfest now & again you understand.

 

[chip]

I have carried a doner card since I was 17... over 30 years.

However, if this proposal comes to fruition, I will seriously think about opting out.
The problem is that there are two opposed moral issues at stake.
1) I should help other people by donating what is of no further use to me.
2) I should resist totalinarianism and the dehumanisation of people.

Some of you may think that moral issue #2 is a bit over the top, but I think it is the more imoportant of the two.
What is the point of living if you don't even have rights over your own body?

In short, I regard the continued use of the word "donate" in the context of "presumed consent" to be a falsehood.
Taking parts of someones body without explicit consent is nothing short of theft.

It is the thin end of the wedge, and will lead to many abuses of this power, and others in future.

I agree with this entirely. The difference between informed consent and presumed consent cannot be addressed, in my opinion, with ethical satisfaction. But where do you stop with this? Remember the Alderhay body parts scandal? On clinical grounds you could make a sound scientific arguement for the routine removal of body parts. There exists a huge shortage of cadavers for medical training and even bones are now so hard to acquire they have to be imported from the US for academic and clinical research - which is essential to improving the quality of, and extending, life. Would it be acceptable to harvest all panceata from the deceased for beta cell transplantation? Once again, this seems a poorly considered idea being advanced as a benefit to all without consideration of the human price.

 

[El Presidente]

Once again, this seems a poorly considered idea being advanced as a benefit to all without consideration of the human price.

They're dead, so therefore not human.

 

[El Presidente]

. Just stay with an opt in system and all such moral minefields are naturally avoided.

........and people die needlessly.

 

[El Presidente]

Surely one solution would be for people to put the information on their driving licence/passport application. Although it will take time, given that most people in the UK have passports, which by definition have to be renewed every ten years, then the data will (eventually) cover a greater proportion of the population than at present.

In other countries, where a far lower proportion of people have passports, (Italy, USA etc) this could be a bigger problem.

 

[1066familyman]

........and people die needlessly.

If they do, it's mainly because people who have no objection to organ transplants don't sign up. Concentrating on getting those people signed up would seem the obvious answer.

 

[El Presidente]

Concentrating on getting those people signed up would seem the obvious answer.

I agree, but sadly we live in a society where issues of this nature are a very low priority for the majority of the population, and therefore even if they were educated/informed then the poor take up would still result in demand for organs outstripping supply.

I am an organ donor, and also a blood donor, and the UK blood service are begging people to give blood but to little response. It pisses me off royally the can't be arsed attitude of the vast majority of the population who make no effort whatsoever to give up an hour twice a year to help others live.

 

[1066familyman]

I agree, but sadly we live in a society where issues of this nature are a very low priority for the majority of the population, and therefore even if they were educated/informed then the poor take up would still result in demand for organs outstripping supply.

I am an organ donor, and also a blood donor, and the UK blood service are begging people to give blood but to little response. It pisses me off royally the can't be arsed attitude of the vast majority of the population who make no effort whatsoever to give up an hour twice a year to help others live.

Both my parents and my siblings were/are blood donors and carry organ donor cards too. I never have, despite being asked to, as I have my objections. I have the utmost respect for card carriers and donors though, and don't seek to push my views onto anyone.

I feel quiet strongly about this, that basic human rights ( simplified term I know ) should never be comprised because the majority of people just can't be arsed to register.

 

[El Presidente]

I feel quiet strongly about this, that basic human rights ( simplified term I know ) should never be comprised because the majority of people just can't be arsed to register.

If you choose to object then I have no problem with it. I presume that you would also object to receiving blood on the same basis, and would insist on the same for your children, which is your right as an individual and a parent.

There is also another basic right to life which is being denied to others through the laziness of those who can't be arsed to register, and there lies my beef with the opt in process.

It comes down to a choice between morals and saving lives, you're entitled to your views, and come down on the your personal moral side of the fence, I just don't like the idea of people dieing, which drives my viewpoint.

 

[Frutos]

Just out of interest, does anyone know whether one's ability to donate blood while alive (which, for varying reasons, I am not and never will be permitted to do) has any bearing on whether organs can be used after death?

 

[steward 433]

Just out of interest, does anyone know whether one's ability to donate blood while alive (which, for varying reasons, I am not and never will be permitted to do) has any bearing on whether organs can be used after death?

Have no clue on that one, Sorry Frutos

 

[El Presidente]

Just out of interest, does anyone know whether one's ability to donate blood while alive (which, for varying reasons, I am not and never will be permitted to do) has any bearing on whether organs can be used after death?

In the UK gay men can donate organs, in Canada they can't.

 

[binky]

It comes down to a choice between morals and saving lives, you're entitled to your views, and come down on the your personal moral side of the fence, I just don't like the idea of people dieing, which drives my viewpoint.

Both of these are moral choices.
<Flameproof jacket on>
There is nothing intrinsically sacrosanct about a human life.
The preservation of human lives by, say, organ donation, is therefore a choice derived from a/your moral code.

For you, that choice is to save a life which could otherwise be lost.
For me, I value freedoms more than I value life.

Each view is a valid position held by an individual.

My problem is when another individual, decides that their view is more important than someone elses, (my), view, and decides to impose their view on the rest of us.
This is tyrany, and undermines the very freedom which I value.

 

[Frutos]

In the UK gay men can donate organs, in Canada they can't.

Doesn't really answer my question though, I'm afraid, given that a key reason why I can't ever give blood has sod all to do with my sexuality.

 

[Starry]

Frutos, just because you are unable to donate blood now it does not mean you are automatically excluded from organ donation. Having a transfusion does not automatically mean you cannot donate organs though it does blood, nor do certain illness that prevent blood donation. call them and find out one way or the other. 0845 60 60 400

 

[drew]

There are probably two things you can do in your lifetime that stand above any other achievement. First is creating life and nurturing it. The second is to save someone elses live. Whether that be rescuing a drowning person or pulling them clear from a fire etc. I have achieved the first but have no idea in my lifetime whether I will be faced with having to do the second. However, as a donor, I may very well achieve that after my death.

 

[1067Seagull]

I value freedoms more than I value life.

Each view is a valid position held by an individual.

That'z ok by me. i value the freedomm to say Alann Ball for manager, but peeps shout at me when i sed it here

 

[Cian]

Surely one solution would be for people to put the information on their driving licence/passport application. Although it will take time, given that most people in the UK have passports, which by definition have to be renewed every ten years, then the data will (eventually) cover a greater proportion of the population than at present.

Its on my driving licence, but its not compulsary to fill in the box; seem to remember them saying that there'd been quite a few organs received for transplant from crash victims whos families had no idea what to do but the driving licence on them was filled in.

They won't take my organs, blood or bone marrow in Ireland, but I'd opt-in if I could. I can see the arguments against opt-out but would favour it as an option - its not hard to opt out if you do disagree.

 

[coventrygull]

In the UK gay men can donate organs, in Canada they can't.

Can they? I checked this out at work and apparently they can't.