Organ donation-Presumed consent debate.....

[User removed 4]

My little girl died because she did not get the liver transplant she so desperately needed.

I think it should remain opt in, but with far greater education about donor registration from everything blood, marrow through to organs after death. I have worked hard in our local area to get more people to sign up. It disgusts me that there are so many people out there (those outside of health/religious etc reasons) who do not donate/won't donate.

Do it. From blood, to marrow, to being on the list for donation after death if you have no health, religious etc. reason not to donate go here and then go here and register.

One day it might be your daughter or son, wife or husband who needs a transplant.

i sympatise greatly, but my only concern has been rumours of doctors being overly hasty in switching off machines etc when organs are there to be harvested.

 

[coventrygull]

i sympatise greatly, but my only concern has been rumours of doctors being overly hasty in switching off machines etc when organs are there to be harvested.

They don't switch off the machines. You are pronounced brain dead. Then they take you to the operating theatre to harvest your organs.

 

[User removed 4]

They don't switch off the machines. You are pronounced brain dead. Then they take you to the operating theatre to harvest your organs.

ok , doctors over hastily pronouncing people brain dead ( massive opportunity to take the piss there!)
I know there are certain tests on the brain stem etc ,but i have heard rumours.

 

[Tricky Dicky]

Whatever makes more organs available for transplant in an ethical way, whether it be by education or opt out. I shall actually be needing a transplant in the near future - anyone got a spare kidney ?

 

[coventrygull]

ok , doctors over hastily pronouncing people brain dead ( massive opportunity to take the piss there!)
I know there are certain tests on the brain stem etc ,but i have heard rumours.

There are lots of rumours regarding this. I honestly believe they are just rumours. I know there are loads of issues around brain stem death. Its a difficult one for sure. I don't think I could say goodbye to my love one whilst they were still "alive"

As I said my first wife died awaiting a transplant. We were both not sure about it in the first place but she deteriorated rapidly. I am stil not sure. It is all very hard until you are in that situation.

I think education is vital and all the pros and cons should be given so people can make an informed choice. What goes on in China could easily happen here in the future.

 

[drew]

I was for opt out, but have heard the arguements that it is not that effective. In Spain, they have opt out but it did not apparently increase the number of donor organs. It was only when they invested heavily in transplant coordinators at hospitals that they were able to utilise the organs available. I believe that is what they are starting to do in hospitals in this country.

As for the register, if people cannot make an informed decision, should they be allowed to make decisions on anything else? However, perhaps what we need is massive publicity so that, for example, businesses actively canvass their employees to join the database. Also, when anybody goes to the Drs, the GP should check if they are on the register and if not, discuss with them why not. At the moment, all it is a couple of leaflets on a reception desk.

The crucial arguement for signing up is that if you don't want someone else to have your organs when you're dead, why should you be entitled to someone elses when you are alive? I know they try to give organs to the person with the closest match, but perhaps if people realised that one of the criteria was that if you are not a registered donor then someone who is may be ahead of you on waiting list!!!

Most people don't sign up for it because of sheer bloody laziness. It's easy, you can even do it online.

https://www.uktransplant.org.uk/ukt/Consent.do

 

[coventrygull]

The crucial arguement for signing up is that if you don't want someone else to have your organs when you're dead, why should you be entitled to someone elses when you are alive? I know they try to give organs to the person with the closest match, but perhaps if people realised that one of the criteria was that if you are not a registered donor then someone who is may be ahead of you on waiting list!!!

Most people don't sign up for it because of sheer bloody laziness. It's easy, you can even do it online.

https://www.uktransplant.org.uk/ukt/Consent.do

There is a very strict assesment before you can have an organ transplant. Would you be gutted if you were on the donor organ list but got rejected?

 

[1066familyman]

........

The crucial arguement for signing up is that if you don't want someone else to have your organs when you're dead, why should you be entitled to someone elses when you are alive? I know they try to give organs to the person with the closest match, but perhaps if people realised that one of the criteria was that if you are not a registered donor then someone who is may be ahead of you on waiting list!!!...............

I would guess that people who do not agree with organ transplants and so won't donate, will by definition not wish to receive either ? That would certainly be the case for me.

 

[steward 433]

I would guess that people who do not agree with organ transplants and so won't donate, will by definition not wish to receive either ? That would certainly be the case for me.

Would you still not donate if it meant the difference between life and death of your own child?

I have a very different view to you about this.

I am not religious for one reason and one only, I have been involved in two "religious" wars when i was in the army and i also come from a religious family so i can genuinly see both sides of the coin.

From what i have seen religion does a lot more harm on this planet than it does good. I could list all the wars involving religion going back to the crusades but i don't plan on still being typing at 4 tomorrow morning.

Whilst i appreciate your religious views there are thousands of people on the donor waiting list who would easily recieve organs if it was opt out. Many people who do die prematurely are not on the donor list for 1 reason "I will get around to registering tomorrow. But for some tomorrow never comes!!

I agree with you that people who are unable to make up their own minds should be opted out by their doctor and all under 18's should exempt, but the childs parents asked permission at the time.

Why does it have to be this difficult to save or improve another persons quality of life?

 

[Starry]

>Whilst i appreciate your religious views there are thousands of people on the donor waiting list who would easily recieve organs if it was opt out. Many people who do die prematurely are not on the donor list for 1 reason "I will get around to registering tomorrow. But for some tomorrow never comes!!<

That works the same way for the opt out system though, I will opt out tomorrow and then tomorrow never comes.

I think religion is just a small, though very valid, point in this organ donation debate.

I am very passionate about organ donation but the flaws and holes that would exist in an opt out system are too big for it to be worth it, in my opinion. Some were mentioned above - those unable to opt out (mentally unwell, etc.) but really I have no faith in the government getting it right. And once those organs are removed there is no way back.

 

[steward 433]

My view differs to some i agree, But i believe it is just as flawed if not more so now.

Like my view of when i am dead i am just a chunk of meat use me for whatever, hopefully my memories will live on with my family but my body is no use to them so give it to people who can use it.

 

[Starry]

I agree with you. Once I am gone they can pick over my carcass and take whatever they want, the same for my husband and all my children are registered as well.

But not everyone thinks that way and while not wanting to donate is alien to me that is their choice. I don't think the system we have right now is perfect but I do think - we more investment, education, campaigning etc it could be far better. I do not think donation is a right. I am very clouded on this issue because of what happened with Anastasia, though.

I do not trust the State to get my wishes right or look after my personal data. I would hate to think they would remove the organs of just one person who was 'opted out' but this discovered once it was too late. I believe in France (presumed consent) they removed organs from someone who had opted out in mistake. Once those organs are gone it is too late.

 

[steward 433]

This could run and run so i am going to leave this debate here before i upset anyone. Just thought i would put my view across.

The world will never be perfect Starry and that is something that will never change.

 

[1066familyman]

Would you still not donate if it meant the difference between life and death of your own child?

I have a very different view to you about this.

I am not religious for one reason and one only, I have been involved in two "religious" wars when i was in the army and i also come from a religious family so i can genuinly see both sides of the coin.

From what i have seen religion does a lot more harm on this planet than it does good. I could list all the wars involving religion going back to the crusades but i don't plan on still being typing at 4 tomorrow morning.

Whilst i appreciate your religious views there are thousands of people on the donor waiting list who would easily recieve organs if it was opt out. Many people who do die prematurely are not on the donor list for 1 reason "I will get around to registering tomorrow. But for some tomorrow never comes!!

I agree with you that people who are unable to make up their own minds should be opted out by their doctor and all under 18's should exempt, but the childs parents asked permission at the time.

Why does it have to be this difficult to save or improve another persons quality of life?

I suppose it was only a matter of time before someone felt the need to use the old emotive hypothetical chestnut in your first paragraph. Well, the short answer is No, I still wouldn't donate, but I don't believe that that adds anything of real significance to the debate to be honest.

You might be surprised to find that a lot of people who believe in GOD aren't actually zealots willing to kill in the name of 'religion'. Personally, I don't have a lot more time for organised religion than you appear to. Anyway, this debate is not about the merits or otherwise of organised religion.

I don't see why a doctor should decide for people unable to make up their own minds either. Just stay with an opt in system and all such moral minefields are naturally avoided.

 

[1066familyman]

This could run and run so i am going to leave this debate here before i upset anyone. Just thought i would put my view across.

The world will never be perfect Starry and that is something that will never change.

It is a very emotive debate, sadly more so for some than others because of tragic circumstances. So I can understand why you might feel you will upset someone. For me though the nature of debate is disagreement and I don't think you should stop adding your opinion for fear of upsetting anyone.

Hope this doesn't come across as arrogant, but I think the fact that Starry and myself can come at this from totally different angles, yet find some common ground whilst respecting the others differing views and experiences is testament to a healthy debate. The more people that enter the debate the better IMO.

 

[drew]

There is a very strict assesment before you can have an organ transplant. Would you be gutted if you were on the donor organ list but got rejected?

I am very well aware of the procedures and my wife runs an intensive care ward and has to get involved with the assessments, dealing with relatives and contacting the transplant coordinator in the first place. As to your second point, I wouldn't be rejected if the criteria was that you have to be on the register as I already am and have been for decades. My point was, if all other things being equal (which I accept is highly unlikely) then perhaps it should be based on whether you are on a register or not.

I would guess that people who do not agree with organ transplants and so won't donate, will by definition not wish to receive either ? That would certainly be the case for me.

That may be the case in an opt out system but they would still need to register that opt out. In the current system, people don't register because, in the main they can't be bothered so you can't tell if someone isn't on the register because they have seriously considered the ethics or if they are in fact just a selfish lazy bastard who can't be bothered to do something about it today but expects to be a recipient if ever they need it.

If someone has made a concious decision not to donate thats fair enough and whilst I don't agree with that stance, I will respect it. What really pisses me off are the gits that don't give two shits until they need something themselves.

 

[1066familyman]

That may be the case in an opt out system but they would still need to register that opt out. In the current system, people don't register because, in the main they can't be bothered so you can't tell if someone isn't on the register because they have seriously considered the ethics or if they are in fact just a selfish lazy bastard who can't be bothered to do something about it today but expects to be a recipient if ever they need it.

If someone has made a concious decision not to donate thats fair enough and whilst I don't agree with that stance, I will respect it. What really pisses me off are the gits that don't give two shits until they need something themselves.

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

I agree that the majority of people not on the list at the moment are those that, to put it kindly, "haven't got around to signing up yet". That's a sad situation.

 

[steward 433]

Hope this doesn't come across as arrogant, but I think the fact that Starry and myself can come at this from totally different angles, yet find some common ground whilst respecting the others differing views and experiences is testament to a healthy debate. The more people that enter the debate the better IMO.

Not arrogant at all and i respect the fact in your previous post you confirmed if it was one of your children you still wouldn't change your mind. I respect yours and Starrys opinions just mine will always differ to yours.

 

[binky]

I have carried a doner card since I was 17... over 30 years.

However, if this proposal comes to fruition, I will seriously think about opting out.
The problem is that there are two opposed moral issues at stake.
1) I should help other people by donating what is of no further use to me.
2) I should resist totalinarianism and the dehumanisation of people.

Some of you may think that moral issue #2 is a bit over the top, but I think it is the more imoportant of the two.
What is the point of living if you don't even have rights over your own body?

In short, I regard the continued use of the word "donate" in the context of "presumed consent" to be a falsehood.
Taking parts of someones body without explicit consent is nothing short of theft.

It is the thin end of the wedge, and will lead to many abuses of this power, and others in future.

 

[1066familyman]

I have carried a doner card since I was 17... over 30 years.

However, if this proposal comes to fruition, I will seriously think about opting out.
The problem is that there are two opposed moral issues at stake.
1) I should help other people by donating what is of no further use to me.
2) I should resist totalinarianism and the dehumanisation of people.

Some of you may think that moral issue #2 is a bit over the top, but I think it is the more imoportant of the two.
What is the point of living if you don't even have rights over your own body?

In short, I regard the continued use of the word "donate" in the context of "presumed consent" to be a falsehood.
Taking parts of someones body without explicit consent is nothing short of theft.

It is the thin end of the wedge, and will lead to many abuses of this power, and others in future.

Excellent post !

I hope it always remains opt in and that you continue to carry your card.