One month on: Is English football going to learn?

[Scoffers]

So, lets boil this down to some basic facts :-

- If an England qualified player is good enough, he'll be in a premiership first team, if not, he won't - no matter how many foreigners are about

- In order to get enough England qualified players coming through, we need to invest heavily in the grass-roots facilities and training

 

[pasty]

I firmly believe that England will achieve precisely nothing all the time the Premier League still exists, and pays what are internationally average players obscene amounts of money. And I really mean obscene.

With one or two exceptions, I genuinely think almost the entire England squad out in South Africa would much rather have been elsewhere, relaxing and recupperating after a long hard season (aw poor little things) and thinking about their next multi-million pound Premier League contract.

Yeah, they can do the chest thumping, badge kissing, I love playing for my coutnry bollocks, but I think it really is just that - bollocks.

After the display given in the WC I have now just about completely given up on the Premiership. I don't care who wins it, I don't care who gets relegated and every single one of them can f*** right off as far as I am concerned.

The Football League is where it's at for me from now on.

 

[Silent Bob]

So, lets boil this down to some basic facts :-

- If an England qualified player is good enough, he'll be in a premiership first team, if not, he won't - no matter how many foreigners are about

But that's wrong, because players don't just come fully formed off a production line, they need first team football to develop. An 18 year old academy player, no matter how talented it's always going to be easier to buy a 26 year old fully developed player (usually from abroad because it's cheaper). So while the standard of coaching does need to be improved you're still going to have a problem as long teams are so driven by success and money that blooding youth players is not an option. This is't just an English thing either, if you look at someone like Chelsea who have brought in a lot of young foreign players who are simply stagnating in their reserves between the ages od 18 and 23, then most likely being sold or released.

 

[Herne Hill Seagull]

You're right, Bob, but without coaching earlier those kids will not be good enough to tempt clubs to play them. It's a vicious circle. Get the coaches in place first, then the kids may get the games. I don't agree with the words 'no matter how talented'. If your Academy or whatever has another kid who is as good as, say, Rooney was at 16, you can bet he'd get a game. An extreme example of course, but a kid with enough talent and the right coaching will get a chance, because it's cheaper still to get a kid out of the Academy than it is to buy somebody and pay 26-year-olds' wages.

 

[Acker79]

What will annoy me from day one of the Premier League wil be the usual 'oh isn't Rooney a fantastic player" and "oh Lampard - slots in his 23rd of the season from 40 yards" and "Gerrard - ran the midfield all 90 mins." etc etc blah-de bloody -blah

I remember last season, Gerrard had been getting a fair bit of stick for his england performances, particularly how he is able to turn it on and boss a game for Liverpool, but not for England. After one particular game there was a fair bit of criticism of his performance, then on the sunday he played well helping liverpool win the game and Jamie Redknapp et al went on about how he had proved his critics wrong by following up a lousy England performance with a great Liverpool one.

 

[essbee]

pasty

I'm with you on this. And woe betide anyone who asks me to join one of
those ********* fantasy Premier league sh*te things.

 

[Silent Bob]

You're right, Bob, but without coaching earlier those kids will not be good enough to tempt clubs to play them. It's a vicious circle. Get the coaches in place first, then the kids may get the games. I don't agree with the words 'no matter how talented'. If your Academy or whatever has another kid who is as good as, say, Rooney was at 16, you can bet he'd get a game. An extreme example of course, but a kid with enough talent and the right coaching will get a chance, because it's cheaper still to get a kid out of the Academy than it is to buy somebody and pay 26-year-olds' wages.

I agree that improving the coaching is the biggest problem, and also the one that is within the FA's power to solve if they can get a clue/listen to what Trevor Brooking has been saying for years. But when even kids that clubs have brought in specifically from abroad don't get a chance there's clearly a problem. In the long term it's cheaper and better to produce your own players but clubs aren't thinking long term when even one place higher or lower in the final league standings is worth a couple of million quid.

 

[SI 4 BHA]

I agree that improving the coaching is the biggest problem, and also the one that is within the FA's power to solve if they can get a clue/listen to what Trevor Brooking has been saying for years. But when even kids that clubs have brought in specifically from abroad don't get a chance there's clearly a problem. In the long term it's cheaper and better to produce your own players but clubs aren't thinking long term when even one place higher or lower in the final league standings is worth a couple of million quid.

• Only 2,769 English coaches hold Uefa's B, A and Pro badges
• Spain has 23,995, Italy 29,420 and Germany 34,790

Coaching is the key at all levels. It's time that well meaning parents were banned from coaching kids teams, but there simply aren't enough qualifed coaches in the UK to do this, so we rely on parents who might have played a few Sunday league games to teach kids how to play. Mental!

Just had an article on SSN about some new initiative at academies, they highlighted that at the Ajax acadamy, youth players get 6000 hours coaching compared to 2500 hours in England, over the same period of time. Not surprising how many Ajax players end up playing for top teams all over Europe, but hardly any English do, and why our top players do not seem to have the techniques of most European stars.

 

[Jimmy Grimble]

Will they learn? Of course not, this is England we're talking about! Since when does England ever try to learn from superior countries?

 

[Acker79]

From Martin Samuel, who I think writes a lot of good articles about youth development.

This is just one point that gets overlooked.

Consider this. In Spain, the secondary school day is over at 2.20pm; in Germany a school day lasts from 8am to 1pm and includes at least alternate Saturdays; in Holland, school hours are flexible, amounting to roughly 30 hours each week, to include a 10-minute break each hour. A child could work two nine-hour days, two six-hour days and have three days off.

Do you see where this is heading? The three European nations involved in the World Cup semi-finals all have school hours that are more conducive to achieving excellence in sport, because greater free time can be given to coaching.

A good swimmer in Britain will rise at roughly the same hour as the milkman to make training before school. As for footballers, school starts before 9am and finishes close to 4pm here, so any specialist coaching can barely be scheduled before 6pm, by which time the child has already done a day's work. (Quite what we are teaching in these schools, considering every German and Dutch player speaks English fluently and some of ours do not, is another matter.)

So we can blather about governance and independent committees, but if the national education system allows a kid in Spain or Germany to be on the training field for two or three hours longer each day, no wonder they are producing better technicians with superior thought processes.

 

[Gully]

I firmly believe that England will achieve precisely nothing all the time the Premier League still exists, and pays what are internationally average players obscene amounts of money. And I really mean obscene.

Scotland went through this about 15 years ago, although on a much smaller scale, they used to qualify fairly regularly for World Cups...and if you ignore the fact that they usually beat their postcards home...it wasn't a bad achievement for a smaller nation. They used to produce World class players from time to time, players like Dalglish...and, well Dalglish...top English teams had loads of Scots, but we now have barely anyone from Scotland in the upper reaches of the Premiership.

(I posted precisely this point on another forum and some plastic Manc came back with "how about Fletcher"...I retorted with "that proves my point")

There is no doubt that something needs doing very quickly, but I can't see it happening when you have the Premiership with all its money controlling the top division and the FA pretty much everything else.

 

[Gwylan]

Scotland went through this about 15 years ago, although on a much smaller scale, they used to qualify fairly regularly for World Cups...and if you ignore the fact that they usually beat their postcards home...it wasn't a bad achievement for a smaller nation. They used to produce World class players from time to time, players like Dalglish...and, well Dalglish...top English teams had loads of Scots, but we now have barely anyone from Scotland in the upper reaches of the Premiership.

Scotland have produced plenty of world class players - don't forget that Jim Baxter was the standout performer in the Rest of the World side that played England in 1963 - there was a time when he was one of the best players in the world. While there haven't been many of Baxter's quality, there have been some decent players over the years: Dalglish, Macari, Dave Mackay, Bremner (who could play a bit, when not being a thug), Souness, Jimmy Johnstone, Hansen (a class defender before he became an irritating pundit) and several more.

The decline of Scotland has been even more marked than that of England - and they can't blame the Prem League.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

It's a grass-roots issue. Better coaching, more of it, smaller pitches for kids, less emphasis on results at an early age, and a change in culture amongst parents on the side lines.

The leagues are just businesses ultimately.

And sadly no one is really in overall control of grass roots football; the FA look after some of it, but so do the various Premiership and Football League clubs i.e. the businesses you refer to. There is no way any consistency or recognised process can be applied schoolboy coaching.

I agree with the smaller pitches, less emphasis on results etc but how can this be enforced on the coaching practices at say Chelsea? You might argue Chelsea have a good academy but what about further down the food chain? There's plenty of clubs still using kick and rush techniques....I wonder what they teach their schoolboys?

 

[Whitterz]

It is grass roots, theres no doubt about that

Councils ripping up football pitches and installing council estates riddled with crime and disorder. The kids are pumped at school with computers and IT, because thats where the top jobs and money is. Health and Safety at schools stopping kids kicking leather footballs around because they can injure. This nanny state clap trap crap is ruining our society, and the next generation kids coming through.

Kids would rather sit in front of the TV/computer. Our society has turned into one which is lazy, and reliant upon the bigger brother. THE GOVERNMENT.

 

[matthew]

Don't get why everyone says the premier league is the best league in the world. There was no team in the Semi-finals of the Champions league last year. When was the last time an English club won the Europa league? And on top of that England football team didn't even get into the Quarter-finals of the world cup! It's only good because it's competitive and everyone watches it.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Never mind the kids coming through, even if there were loads of good prospects they're still brought up in a culture shaped by the likes of Terry, Gerrard, Beckham etc where money and material wealth is king, behave like a kvnt and be above the law.

If Scudamore thinks throwing money at academies is going to produce intelligent, technically gifted players he's much mistaken.

 

[ROKERITE]

I'd rather England failed to win a tournament for the next century than our domestic game possibly be damaged, in some spurious attempt to improve the national side's chances.
I'd support NO reduction in the size of The Premier League, NO alteration to The League Cup, NO ending of replays in The F.A. Cup, NO restriction on foreign payers from top to bottom of the football pyramid.
Our leagues aren't bust so don't muck around with them in a doomed attempt to fix the England side.

I've been away from my computer since yesterday morning. Despite the near unanimous disagreement with me, I stand by every word.
I cannot understand supporters of B&HA agreeing with a reduction in the size of The Premier League. Surely you retain the hope that one day you'll be in the top flight again. If it is reduced to eighteen, or even sixteen, clubs then the chances of you reaching The P.L., and more so staying there for more than a season, must lessen. With fewer clubs, promotion and relegation will probably go back to two, rather than three, clubs. I oppose completely the efforts by Gartside, the Bolton Chairman, to protect the current occupants of the top flight by pulling up the drawbridge; however unlikely, the dream of seeing their club in The P.L. must remain possible for supporters of even Conference clubs.
As for the cup competitions, they remain the best hope of non-Premier League clubs receiving a massive, perhaps life saving, financial boost. Scrapping The League Cup, or taking the P.L. sides out of it, removes half the opportunities of a bumper payday for the F.L. sides. Ending replays in The F.A. Cup, apart from destroying another of the great traditions, denies the chance of teams repeating what a couple have done within the last few years, holding manu and going back to Old Trafford for a replay that sets the club up financially for the next ten years.
The suggestion that the England team do badly because of foreigners in our game is a myth. If a British youth is good enough he'll make it. The idea that a good young English player won't break through because a foreigner is blocking his path is nonsense. I'd argue that the decline in numbers of good young English and Scottish players has more to do with lack of dedication by much of today's youth. Excessive alchohol consumption, drugs and hours in the bedroom playing computer games, have far more to do with our feeble national sides than foreigners in our game.
I repeat, I oppose any mucking round with our club game in a doomed effort to improve the national side. International football is a diversion for three or four weeks every couple of years. Club football is an obsession for forty weeks or more every year. I reiterate, despite the (largely self-inflicted) problems of Pompey and other individual clubs, our leagues aren't bust.

 

[itszamora]

I've been away from my computer since yesterday morning. Despite the near unanimous disagreement with me, I stand by every word.
I cannot understand supporters of B&HA agreeing with a reduction in the size of The Premier League. Surely you retain the hope that one day you'll be in the top flight again. If it is reduced to eighteen, or even sixteen, clubs then the chances of you reaching The P.L., and more so staying there for more than a season, must lessen. With fewer clubs, promotion and relegation will probably go back to two, rather than three, clubs. I oppose completely the efforts by Gartside, the Bolton Chairman, to protect the current occupants of the top flight by pulling up the drawbridge; however unlikely, the dream of seeing their club in The P.L. must remain possible for supporters of even Conference clubs.
As for the cup competitions, they remain the best hope of non-Premier League clubs receiving a massive, perhaps life saving, financial boost. Scrapping The League Cup, or taking the P.L. sides out of it, removes half the opportunities of a bumper payday for the F.L. sides. Ending replays in The F.A. Cup, apart from destroying another of the great traditions, denies the chance of teams repeating what a couple have done within the last few years, holding manu and going back to Old Trafford for a replay that sets the club up financially for the next ten years.
The suggestion that the England team do badly because of foreigners in our game is a myth. If a British youth is good enough he'll make it. The idea that a good young English player won't break through because a foreigner is blocking his path is nonsense. I'd argue that the decline in numbers of good young English and Scottish players has more to do with lack of dedication by much of today's youth. Excessive alchohol consumption, drugs and hours in the bedroom playing computer games, have far more to do with our feeble national sides than foreigners in our game.
I repeat, I oppose any mucking round with our club game in a doomed effort to improve the national side. International football is a diversion for three or four weeks every couple of years. Club football is an obsession for forty weeks or more every year. I reiterate, despite the (largely self-inflicted) problems of Pompey and other individual clubs, our leagues aren't bust.

With respect, I don't think anyone except yourself here has spoken about reducing the size of the Premier League or anything like that. I would suggest that perhaps the League Cup can go, as it serves no real purpose and just clogs up the fixture list with meaningless games. As many others have said, coaching at the grass roots and the fact that clubs can often get comparable foreign players at a lesser price are the problem.

 

[shaun_rc]

One other thing about the World Cup is that I feel it's not just the England team tht suffered, I think the Premier League brand was damaged.

I'm sure the "Best League in the World" (TM) hype will start, but it wasn't just the English Premier League players that underperformed - the best players almost unanimously came from other leagues.

I would argue Spain now has the best national team AND the best league (even though only two teams seem to be able to win it, rather than our four - possibly making it even more boring than ours).

 

[Gwylan]

I would argue Spain now has the best national team AND the best league (even though only two teams seem to be able to win it, rather than our four - possibly making it even more boring than ours).

It's been six years since anyone other than Chelsea or Man U has won the Prem
and 15 years since anyone other than Chelsea, Man U or Arsenal has won it. In that time, five Spanish teams have won La Liga. In addition, five Spanish teams have finished in the top three in the last six years, compared to our four.

Which ever way you look at it, it's a bit more competitive than our league.