[Misc] Old fashion school injustices

[midnight_rendezvous]

Do you really believe it’s better though? Instilling discipline both academically and physically or mentally for me was/should be the primary function of a school.

It establishes and reinforces the moral code you should be taught by your parents and delivered the right sort of upbringing into a world which is increasingly harsh.

Your generation achieved some phenomenal things as a result of that way of schooling and sadly having only joined secondary school in 91 most of that had already been lost.

Fast forward to today and kids don’t learn in most schools half of what they should simply because they know there aren’t really any consequences if they don’t.

I’m not saying kids should have things thrown at them or walloped if they step out of line but teachers these days can barely raise their voices without fear of losing their jobs and kids are wise to it in the extreme.

I really worry about today’s generation pushing on in the world without having any sense of fear or responsibility for their actions. It’s all so soft and namby pamby.



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As a teacher i'd like to clear up a few things.

Yes, school is much better now. Discipline, moral code etc can be instilled without the need to be cruel and borderline sadistic. At the end of the day, they're kids. They'll make mistakes but that doesn't make you have to hit them. The unbelievable irony of telling a child it's not ok to hit someone and then punishing them by hitting them must of been totally lost on teachers of the past.


Kids learn an incredible amount in school. What I was learning in years 8/9 they are learning in years 5/6. The demand placed upon children is insane but they just absorb it. Certainly room for improvement, children should be taught in secondary schools about taxes and some of that 'real world' stuff. But, on the whole, most kids love learning and the standard of teaching and learning is mostly high. Incidentally, the two countries with the best education system (China and Finland) have polar opposite styles, showing no one way is the 'right' way.

I raise my voice if I need to. I am very lucky to have to say that I've very rarely ever had to 'shout.' Whats more, it's usually the parents that kick up a fuss, not the school leaders, if a child has been told off or shouted at. Some children take the piss, but the majority of children are absolutely mortified if they make you angry.

The responsibility lies both with parents and school for preparing children for the wider world. 'Grit' and 'resilience' are currently a big thing in education. However, from experience, I would say that it is usually home life that leaves children with very little of the aforementioned. This may seem like passing the buck but we currently live in a society where parents give their kids tablets at the age of 3 to keep them quiet. If a child is used to having instant gratification at home and they don't get it at school, its no wonder they struggle to cope.

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

There was way more respect than there seems to be these days

It all stems from the parents. If they respect the teacher, more often than not, the child will too. Most of the children that cause issues come from one of two lives. The ones whose parents don't show an interest in school, in education or the child, so they do anything and everything they can for attention. The other from the 'oh my child can't do anything wrong' walk of life. The amount of times I've watched my colleagues tell parents that their child has misbehaved in class only to be greeted with "no sorry, my child would never do that" whilst the child stands there and sneers at the teacher, is unbelievable. The parent doesn't respect the teacher so neither does the child.

 

[Gwylan]

Do you really believe it’s better though? Instilling discipline both academically and physically or mentally for me was/should be the primary function of a school.

It establishes and reinforces the moral code you should be taught by your parents and delivered the right sort of upbringing into a world which is increasingly harsh.

I disagree, yes it was more aggressive all round but you had a childhood and you could make mistakes, have laugh and get on with life. I feel for kids today, social media means they have to be in the spotlight 24/7, they have reputations, standards and brands to stand up to and everyone's life is exaggerated and appears so much better on instagram, snapchat, facebook, twitter and everything else.

Parents have been saying that the young generation have been having it easy compared to them for centuries

I certainly don't equate discipline with physical punishment; there are ways to keep children in check without hitting them. Kids should be free to study and learn without the threat of violence - some of the teachers at my school were borderline psychopaths who would never be allowed near pupils today.

I'm also not sure where this idea that kids can't go out and act the goat today comes from. My two were out climbing trees, building dens in the woods and generally coming back covered in mud from about the ages of 7 and 8.

One thing I do agree with though is the deleterious effect of social media, that's something we didn't have and I'm very grateful for it. We try to warn our kids to pay little attention and to avoid posting anything embarrassing but I'm not convinced they're listening. But that's nothing to do with the way that schools are run.

 

[Jack Straw]

Are we really that sensitive that we cant say.the word wogs in a story ,i could understand it ot being acceptable to call someone a wog , but not feeling you could use it in a story , ffs

I thought that the NSC PC Police would have had a field day so I played safe to save a slating, but got one from you anyway!

 

[Icy Gull]

Parents have been saying that the young generation have been having it easy compared to them for centuries

I certainly don't equate discipline with physical punishment; there are ways to keep children in check without hitting them. Kids should be free to study and learn without the threat of violence - some of the teachers at my school were borderline psychopaths who would never be allowed near pupils today.

I'm also not sure where this idea that kids can't go out and act the goat today comes from. My two were out climbing trees, building dens in the woods and generally coming back covered in mud from about the ages of 7 and 8.

One thing I do agree with though is the deleterious effect of social media, that's something we didn't have and I'm very grateful for it. We try to warn our kids to pay little attention and to avoid posting anything embarrassing but I'm not convinced they're listening. But that's nothing to do with the way that schools are run.

Tough one but the threat of physical violence ( to put it at it’s most basic) is a deterrent imo. My grandkids on my son’s side were never smacked at all until they reached about 6 years old and the parents were totally against it. Because they could push the boundaries as far as they wished because of it they have recently moved on to smacking them if they are totally out of order as nothing else worked... and now they are way more disciplined and more likely to back off when the parents get angry with them. As I say it’s a tough one but without boundaries life can be hell for the parents and the kids on occasions imo.

I do realise that smacking a kid is now illegal as far as I’m aware?

 

[Bakero]

As a teacher i'd like to clear up a few things....

You might want to proofread that post or people will be jumping on it as proof of slipping standards

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

Tough one but the threat of physical violence ( to put it at it’s most basic) is a deterrent imo. My grandkids on my son’s side were never smacked at all until they reached about 6 years old and the parents were totally against it. Because they could push the boundaries as far as they wished because of it they have recently moved on to smacking them if they are totally out of order as nothing else worked... and now they are way more disciplined and more likely to back off when the parents get angry with them. As I say it’s a tough one but without boundaries life can be hell for the parents and the kids on occasions imo.

I do realise that smacking is now illegal as far as I’m aware?

If physical violence was/ is a deterrent, why was it usually the same children outside the head teachers office? The children afraid of being hit back then are the same kind of children who are afraid to be told off now. Children absolutely need to know the boundaries and where the 'line' is but I believe they can do so without being struck. I've always believed that all your doing when striking a child is teaching them that violence is the solution to problems. I can, as a modern day teacher, find ways to discipline a class of 30 so they all know the rules and expectations, I see no reason why the teachers of yesteryear couldn't.

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

You might want to proofread that post or people will be jumping on it as proof of slipping standards

It's not just the children who slip back in to bad habits during the 6 weeks

 

[Icy Gull]

If physical violence was/ is a deterrent, why was it usually the same children outside the head teachers office? The children afraid of being hit back then ad the same kind of children who are afraid to be told off now. Children absolutely need to know the boundaries and where the 'line' is but I believe they can do so without being struck. I've always believed that all your doing when striking a child is teaching them that violence is the solution to problems. I can, as a modern day teacher, find ways to discipline a class of 30 so they all know the rules and expectations, I see no reason why the teachers of yesteryear couldn't.

As I said it’s a tough one. I was often caned at school, nowhere near as much as some but way more than most. I don’t consider myself confrontational or violent but both my kids had a slap on the leg when they were young and continued misbehaving after warnings. I’d be interested to know how you deal with kids who just keep pushing the boundaries?

FWIW my wife and I are still very close to our kids and neither has ever said they feel we were wrong to discipline with a smack now and then. One is quite a disciplinarian with their child and the other has come around to thinking it’s not a bad thing having gone along with his wife for a number of years in not disciplining his with the occasional smack.

 

[BigGully]

You knew the boundaries and if you over stepped them you accepted whatever punishment you got. Some of it was harsh but you understood how it worked. You wouldn’t dream of moaning to your parents about it either because in most cases they backed the school.

Isn't that the very environment that allowed systematic child abuse in many of our institutions ?

 

[Icy Gull]

Isn't that the very environment that allowed systematic child abuse in many of our institutions ?

Yes of course there are those that will go that way, but I suggest it was a very small minority. We will never live in a perfect world.

Lack of discipline these days results in more problems overall, again just imo.

 

[Tim Over Whelmed]

Parents have been saying that the young generation have been having it easy compared to them for centuries

I certainly don't equate discipline with physical punishment; there are ways to keep children in check without hitting them. Kids should be free to study and learn without the threat of violence - some of the teachers at my school were borderline psychopaths who would never be allowed near pupils today.

I'm also not sure where this idea that kids can't go out and act the goat today comes from. My two were out climbing trees, building dens in the woods and generally coming back covered in mud from about the ages of 7 and 8.

One thing I do agree with though is the deleterious effect of social media, that's something we didn't have and I'm very grateful for it. We try to warn our kids to pay little attention and to avoid posting anything embarrassing but I'm not convinced they're listening. But that's nothing to do with the way that schools are run.

I'd agree, they can do it and mine do / did (12 & 15). That said, as time has progressed peer pressure and perceived maturity has made this less of an occurrence.

 

[Birdie Boy]

Kings manor lower school, maths homework two mates and I got 0/10. Class was in a hut and we were told to go in and received a bollocking. Two of us were told to go back outside, the 3rd got a forearm smash across the chest as we watched through the windows. The kid was about the same as me, 8.5 stone, and a full whack from an adult. Rumours abound that the same teacher once threw a kid through the windows of the hut for failing homework, no idea if that is true. Can't remember the teachers name but this was in 1982.

 

[Tim Over Whelmed]

I thought that the NSC PC Police would have had a field day so I played safe to save a slating, but got one from you anyway!

Stop being slatist!

 

[BigGully]

Yes of course there are those that will go that way, but I suggest it was a very small minority.

The learning environment you seem to be advocating not only allowed systematic abuse, but also the reason why we are unlikely to know just how widespread it was.

 

[rool]

Kings manor lower school, maths homework two mates and I got 0/10. Class was in a hut and we were told to go in and received a bollocking. Two of us were told to go back outside, the 3rd got a forearm smash across the chest as we watched through the windows. The kid was about the same as me, 8.5 stone, and a full whack from an adult. Rumours abound that the same teacher once threw a kid through the windows of the hut for failing homework, no idea if that is true. Can't remember the teachers name but this was in 1982.

Was it Watson?

 

[midnight_rendezvous]

As I said it’s a tough one. I was often caned at school, nowhere near as much as some but way more than most. I don’t consider myself confrontational or violent but both my kids had a slap on the leg when they were young and continued misbehaving after warnings. I’d be interested to know how you deal with kids who just keep pushing the boundaries?

As I say, the majority of children are mortified if they get into trouble so the thought that they may do is enough to make sure they remain well behaved. Consistency is also important, as is making sure the consequence fits the infringement. That, coupled with lots of praise and recognition of doing the right thing is enough to keep most class' in check.

With the children who continue to push the boundaries, first and foremost it is important to understand the wider context, especially their home lives. It's a cliche but most children who are 'naughty' don't have the best home lives. I've come across a lot of them in my time and the thing that works best (for me) is connecting with them (and all children) and building a positive relationship. Sounds a bit naff I know, but you'd be amazed at what a positive relationship with a teacher can do to improve behaviour and self-esteem. I've had children who've thrown tables and chairs, children who have sworn openly, children who run away (literally) from doing work, children who are openly and aggressively defiant and some children who just can't seem to help themselves. All of them have improved their behaviour over the course of a year and beyond because of a consistent approach at school (remember, sometimes school is the only consistent place in a child's life), consistent praise, reward, consequences, sanctions in school and in the class room, and the building of a relationship with a teacher that they come to know and trust, not the blow my own horn. If you show you believe in them they tend to become mortified with disappointing you. What's more, I always check up on them when they move on and, again, that fear that they may disappoint you keeps them working hard.

I work in a primary school so my experience is all based working with children from 4 - 11, so might not work in secondary. I've pretty much taught in every year group (bar Year 2) and the strategies work for me.

 

[Icy Gull]

As I say, the majority of children are mortified if they get into trouble so the thought that they may do is enough to make sure they remain well behaved. Consistency is also important, as is making sure the consequence fits the infringement. That, coupled with lots of praise and recognition of doing the right thing is enough to keep most class' in check.

With the children who continue to push the boundaries, first and foremost it is important to understand the wider context, especially their home lives. It's a cliche but most children who are 'naughty' don't have the best home lives. I've come across a lot of them in my time and the thing that works best (for me) is connecting with them (and all children) and building a positive relationship. Sounds a bit naff I know, but you'd be amazed at what a positive relationship with a teacher can do to improve behaviour. I've had children who've thrown tables and chairs, children who swear openly, children who run away (literally) from doing work, children who are openly and aggressively defiant and some children who just can't seem to help themselves. All of them have improved their behaviour over the course of a year and beyond because of a consistent approach at school (remember, sometimes school is the only consistent place in a child's life), consistent praise, reward, consequences, sanctions in school and in the class room, and the building of a relationship with a teacher that they come to know and trust, not the blow my own horn. If you show you believe in them they tend to become mortified with disappointing you. What's more, I always check up on them when they move on and, again, that fear that they may disappoint you keeps them working hard.

I work in a primary school so my experience is all based working with children from 4 - 11, so might not work in secondary. I've pretty much taught in every year group (bar Year 2) and the strategies work for me.

Thanks for taking the time to post that, your pupils sound like they have an ideal and caring teacher

 

[dazzer6666]

As I say, the majority of children are mortified if they get into trouble so the thought that they may do is enough to make sure they remain well behaved. Consistency is also important, as is making sure the consequence fits the infringement. That, coupled with lots of praise and recognition of doing the right thing is enough to keep most class' in check.

With the children who continue to push the boundaries, first and foremost it is important to understand the wider context, especially their home lives. It's a cliche but most children who are 'naughty' don't have the best home lives. I've come across a lot of them in my time and the thing that works best (for me) is connecting with them (and all children) and building a positive relationship. Sounds a bit naff I know, but you'd be amazed at what a positive relationship with a teacher can do to improve behaviour. I've had children who've thrown tables and chairs, children who have sworn openly, children who run away (literally) from doing work, children who are openly and aggressively defiant and some children who just can't seem to help themselves. All of them have improved their behaviour over the course of a year and beyond because of a consistent approach at school (remember, sometimes school is the only consistent place in a child's life), consistent praise, reward, consequences, sanctions in school and in the class room, and the building of a relationship with a teacher that they come to know and trust, not the blow my own horn. If you show you believe in them they tend to become mortified with disappointing you. What's more, I always check up on them when they move on and, again, that fear that they may disappoint you keeps them working hard.

I work in a primary school so my experience is all based working with children from 4 - 11, so might not work in secondary. I've pretty much taught in every year group (bar Year 2) and the strategies work for me.

Great post...we had my wife's niece staying with us for a few days recently with her two toddlers, she's a primary school teacher (yr 5-6) and said pretty much the same thing. Glad to see things have moved on from luzzing board rubbers.

 

[Hampden Park]

Eastbourne Grammar 1975/6.
assembly, winter time, i placed some holly onto the head masters chair. little shit in year 3 stitched me up and i got the cane in front of the school.

bodge mallin (woodwork teacher) would hit us over the head for sky larking in his lessons with a 3 wood golf club.

economics teacher (Ronnie Ladbrook) would launch a black board duster at full force at our heads, duck and lift lid of desk was the appropriate move, if you were quick enough.

deep joy