[Misc] Nottingham murders

[de la zouch]

Barnaby Webber's mother was on R4 earlier this week. She is devastated by the verdict.

She pointed out that Calocane had carried out meticulous planning prior to the attacks. He knew, ahead of his actions, that he was intending to kill. This was NOT a spur of the moment psychotic episode where he had a momentary loss of control. This was a planned, pre-meditated attack.

That's murder in my book.

A very sensible reply to the original question. How rare

 

[Stat Brother]

Barnaby Webber's mother was on R4 earlier this week. She is devastated by the verdict.

She pointed out that Calocane had carried out meticulous planning prior to the attacks. He knew, ahead of his actions, that he was intending to kill. This was NOT a spur of the moment psychotic episode where he had a momentary loss of control. This was a planned, pre-meditated attack.

That's murder in my book.

and that's why family members tend not to sit on the jury.

 

[sydney]

If he is truly mentally ill then maybe we need to look a bit harder at how these people are still walking amongst us rather than being treated in a secure hospital

that is laughable mate , you have enough of your own basket cases and you are getting hundreds more from across the water by the week , where does the money come from to "treat " these people..?

 

[sydney]

murder btw zapp him

 

[Husty]

murder btw zapp him

Ahh, so NSC's most mentally ill individual thinks others like him should be hanged for murder rather than offered treatment in a secure environment? Ironic.

 

[rippleman]

and that's why family members tend not to sit on the jury.

"You first pulled out a dagger from the bag you were carrying"

He had acquired a dagger. Put the dagger in a bag and took the bag, containing the dagger, with him when he left his home.

"An hour later, you were trying, unsuccessfully but with determined persistence, to gain access to a hostel for the homeless. You were intending to attack those inside but an occupant managed to fend you off."

An hour AFTER killing Grace and Barnaby, he was trying to enter a hostel to kill others.

"Shortly after, you attacked Ian Coates, a school caretaker, who was in his van on his way to work. You stabbed him to death with the same merciless ferocity with which you had earlier attacked Barnaby and Grace. You left the scene driving his van; on the look out for yet further victims."

He stole Ian Coates van and was looking for others to kill.

"Your next was Wayne Birkett who was crossing the road in the city centre. You deliberately swerved to hit him at speed....."

"Your final two victims were Sharon Millar and Marcion Gawronski who were both standing on a pedestrian central reservation. Again, you deliberately aimed the van at them and struck them at speed from behind intending to kill them."

I could go on. These aren't the comments of Barnaby's "why family members don't sit on juries" mother but of the trial judge. But I'm sure you are capable of reading the Judge's sentencing remarks for yourself then come back to me and tell me that this wasn't a pre-planned, pre-meditated attack.

I read many trial summaries and it is concerning that so many muderers, rapists, child abusers try to use "mental health" as a literal "get out of jail free" card. The Brianna Ghey murder is another example. One of the killers (the bloke) was speaking normally at the time of his arrest. At some point after his arrest he was suddenly struck down by "selective mutism" and was "unable" to answer questions.

And finally, it costs around £45K PA to keep a Cat A prisoner banged up. It costs £325K PA to keep a "patient" in Broadmoor.

 

[sydney]

Ahh, so NSC's most mentally ill individual thinks others like him should be hanged for murder rather than offered treatment in a secure environment? Ironic.

erm.....not actually killed another human yet mate , don't even kill spiders to be honest.

mosquitos yes , cockroaches yes but other humans no .............that's a pretty weird comment to be fair.

you must find it hard to defecate with your head shoved so firmly up you rectum...

i once attended a scene outside casualty at the Prince of Wales hospital in Randwick , i was one of the first ones there , an Iraqi man who had been brought from the airport after losing his shit when his wife was deported had jumped through a plate glass window , cutting himself badly in the process , he then armed himself with a shard of glass about 2 foot long as was going on the rampage outside the ambulance bay , there were already police in the emergency department who came out as he slowly bled out on the forecourt of the ambulance area , he was going to die anyway as he'd done his carotid artery but the cops yelled 3 times drop the glass drop the glass etc .....they shot him in the head ....how sick is that have a good afternoon.

phosphorous grenades ....?? they're something else too.

 

[pb21]

"You first pulled out a dagger from the bag you were carrying"

He had acquired a dagger. Put the dagger in a bag and took the bag, containing the dagger, with him when he left his home.

"An hour later, you were trying, unsuccessfully but with determined persistence, to gain access to a hostel for the homeless. You were intending to attack those inside but an occupant managed to fend you off."

An hour AFTER killing Grace and Barnaby, he was trying to enter a hostel to kill others.

"Shortly after, you attacked Ian Coates, a school caretaker, who was in his van on his way to work. You stabbed him to death with the same merciless ferocity with which you had earlier attacked Barnaby and Grace. You left the scene driving his van; on the look out for yet further victims."

He stole Ian Coates van and was looking for others to kill.

"Your next was Wayne Birkett who was crossing the road in the city centre. You deliberately swerved to hit him at speed....."

"Your final two victims were Sharon Millar and Marcion Gawronski who were both standing on a pedestrian central reservation. Again, you deliberately aimed the van at them and struck them at speed from behind intending to kill them."

I could go on. These aren't the comments of Barnaby's "why family members don't sit on juries" mother but of the trial judge. But I'm sure you are capable of reading the Judge's sentencing remarks for yourself then come back to me and tell me that this wasn't a pre-planned, pre-meditated attack.

I read many trial summaries and it is concerning that so many muderers, rapists, child abusers try to use "mental health" as a literal "get out of jail free" card. The Brianna Ghey murder is another example. One of the killers (the bloke) was speaking normally at the time of his arrest. At some point after his arrest he was suddenly struck down by "selective mutism" and was "unable" to answer questions.

And finally, it costs around £45K PA to keep a Cat A prisoner banged up. It costs £325K PA to keep a "patient" in Broadmoor.

Clearly he meant to kill these people, but the court/judge/jurry concluded that he was sufficiently ill for him to not be acting rationally.

 

[sydney]

Clearly he meant to kill these people, but the court/judge/jurry concluded that he was sufficiently ill for him to not be acting rationally.

5 6 people dead was it....?? not the actions of a rational person no , actions of a murderer yes.

 

[pb21]

5 6 people dead was it....?? not the actions of a rational person no , actions of a murderer yes.

It depends on how you define murder. Normally the act of killing someone is not synonymous with murdering someone, and that's how the legal system works in this country and many others. However, you may define it that way but, in a legal sense, you would be wrong.

Anyway, this all seems a bit crass.

 

[WATFORD zero]

that is laughable mate , you have enough of your own basket cases and you are getting hundreds more from across the water by the week , where does the money come from to "treat " these people..?

Whatever the subject of the thread, you can always depend on NSC's favourite immigrant arriving to tell us it's all the fault of immigrants

 

[drew]

I would genuinely like to know how they overwhelmingly ascertain that he heard voices in his head?

Because they are educated in psychiatry perhaps?

 

[drew]

What evidence is there that this guy didn’t actually murder anyone in Nottingham? He was also caught on camera wasn’t he? What a silly comparison.

I have my doubts about the interpretation of the rule of law in this country too, it’s often flawed and manipulated imo. So I guess my respect is questionable

I wonder where you’d stand if it was your kids or parents who’d been murdered. I doubt you’d be sympathetic in any way towards the killer.

Surely application of the law should be without emotion otherwise the death penalty would return.

 

[Algernon]

Because they are educated in psychiatry perhaps?

You can be as educated in psychiatry as you like but it'll still only be a guess, albeit an educated one. I'm not certain any psychiatrist has never had the wool pulled over their eyes.
It's an inexact science, some may say pseudoscience.

 

[drew]

You can be as educated in psychiatry as you like but it'll still only be a guess, albeit an educated one. I'm not certain any psychiatrist has never had the wool pulled over their eyes.
It's an inexact science, some may say pseudoscience.

And you know more about the workings of the human mind to enable to you reach your conclusion? I believe there was more than one assessment by more than one psychiatrist. Also, that the decision has subsequently been rubber stamped.

This is obviously not what the relatives want to hear and I think the cause of this was the failure of the CPS to engage properly with them. I think they claimed they had consulted the families when in fact they just conveyed a decision to them.

He should have been in a secure institution in the first place.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Barnaby Webber's mother was on R4 earlier this week. She is devastated by the verdict.

She pointed out that Calocane had carried out meticulous planning prior to the attacks. He knew, ahead of his actions, that he was intending to kill. This was NOT a spur of the moment psychotic episode where he had a momentary loss of control. This was a planned, pre-meditated attack.

That's murder in my book.

Mental illness isn’t always about being ‘out of control’.
We tend to think of mad people as foaming at the mouth and ranting, but paranoid schizophrenia doesn’t affect people like that.
Going back to ex brother in law, he put a teaspoonful of bleach in his drinks every day to cleanse himself. He refused to go into the church for his father’s funeral because the ‘voices’ told him he would die in there.
It is horrible and I feel for the relatives, I really do.

 

[Guinness Boy]

So really, in order to call this for what it was and give some closure to the relatives, while also ensuring the perp gets the treatment he needs so he doesn't go on a killing spree inside, we probably need a new offence of Second Degree Murder.

If only someone had thought of that earlier. Say The Law Commission? Say in around 2006?

https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN03626/SN03626.pdf

 

[mejonaNO12 aka riskit]

I'll be honest, I always thought Manslaughter was where you intended to hurt someone but not necessarily their death.

I then watched The Jury on channel where they re-created a trial and saw if two different juries come to the same conclusion. The case they re-enacted was a real one and it was a man who killed his wife in a fit of rage and admitted it, however the question was 'is it murder or manslaughter'

Manslaughter being 'a loss of control'.

I never realised.

 

[rippleman]

I'll be honest, I always thought Manslaughter was where you intended to hurt someone but not necessarily their death.

I then watched The Jury on channel where they re-created a trial and saw if two different juries come to the same conclusion. The case they re-enacted was a real one and it was a man who killed his wife in a fit of rage and admitted it, however the question was 'is it murder or manslaughter'

Manslaughter being 'a loss of control'.

I never realised.

In the trial you refer to, the defendant was charged with murder. IRL the jury found him not guilty of murder but guilty of manslaughter on grounds of diminished responsibility.

In the Nottingham case, the jury was never given the opportunity to bring in a guilty verdict for murder. They could have been but the CPS saw fit to deny the jury that option. Why?

The defence could have introduced their experts as witnesses for the defence and let the jury make up their own minds. What is the point of jury trials if the prosecution and defence stich-up the charge between them and never give the opportunity to the "twelve good persons and true" to consider the most serious of charges?

 

[Thunder Bolt]

In the trial you refer to, the defendant was charged with murder. IRL the jury found him not guilty of murder but guilty of manslaughter on grounds of diminished responsibility.

In the Nottingham case, the jury was never given the opportunity to bring in a guilty verdict for murder. They could have been but the CPS saw fit to deny the jury that option. Why?

The defence could have introduced their experts as witnesses for the defence and let the jury make up their own minds. What is the point of jury trials if the prosecution and defence stich-up the charge between them and never give the opportunity to the "twelve good persons and true" to consider the most serious of charges?

Why do you think the prosecution and defence decided to ‘stitch up the charges’? Professional lawyers acting on the advice of professional medically qualified witnesses?

Edit to add (I have posted this several times already) he had already pleaded guilty to attempted murders.

Several of you seem to think a secure medical unit is a cushy sentence rather than prison.