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[Misc] Nottingham murders

Nottingham murders - where do you stand?


  • Total voters
    54






Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
53,621
Goldstone
What evidence is there that this guy didn’t actually murder anyone in Nottingham?

The courts have decided that he's guilty of manslaughter, not murder.



He was also caught on camera wasn’t he? What a silly comparison.

What difference does that make? In the case covered by the Jury, the man admitted that he killed his wife, and that was never in dispute, so it doesn't matter whether it's on camera or not. The comparison makes sense because you just want it to be murder because you don't like it, regardless of what the actual law is.


I wonder where you’d stand if it was your kids or parents who’d been murdered. I doubt you’d be sympathetic in any way towards the killer.
Firstly, these people weren't murdered. Secondly, I am not being sympathetic towards the killer.
 


Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
53,621
Goldstone
Re: the real trial, I voted murder - yes, with diminished responsibility, so incarceration in a (very) secure mental institution, certainly - but he didn't kill them accidentally, so more than manslaughter in my book.

Exactly - when he tried to murder someone, it was attempted murder - so as far as I'm concerned, when he succeeded in actually killing someone, it was murder. Was his state of mind different when he tried to kill but didn't quite manage it?

You have no idea what the law is do you. You clearly don't understand it at all.
 


Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
53,621
Goldstone
Help me here, he pleaded guilty to attempting to murder three people but the ones he did manage to murder was manslaughter? How does that work then?

As far as I know, attempted manslaughter doesn't exist in the UK. Attempting to kill someone is just called attempted murder, even though actually killing them may not be described as murder. It's just a quirk of the wording of our legal system.

This person is guilty of unlawfully killing people, and he may never be free again. Whether it's called murder or manslaughter due to his mental health is really semantics. That doesn't make the families happy, but that is the law in this country.
 






GT49er

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Feb 1, 2009
49,448
Gloucester
You have no idea what the law is do you. You clearly don't understand it at all.
And you appear not to understand the idea that attempted murder, which is unsuccessful (in terms of killing someone), turns into manslaughter when successful basically defies all logic. Yeh, it might be a quirk of the legal system. Big deal, but still stupid.
:shrug:
 


Zeberdi

“Vorsprung durch Technik”
NSC Patron
Oct 20, 2022
7,238
Can you attempt manslaughter?
Attempt implies intention - so yes, in Voluntary manslaughter and also in an attempted murder charge (ie the intent to kill) which is then reduced to a manslaughter conviction in sentencing because of a partial defence (eg diminished responsibility, loss of control)

The law of ’Attempt’ would obviously not apply to Involuntary Manslaughter - that would be illogical.
 






Zeberdi

“Vorsprung durch Technik”
NSC Patron
Oct 20, 2022
7,238
This must mean that someone diagnosed with Paranoid Schizophrenia can’t murder people
No it doesn’t mean that at all - it means they will still be charged with murder but have their sentencing reduced to a manslaughter conviction through diminished responsibility (the burden of proof is on the defence)
 


herecomesaregular

We're in the pipe, 5 by 5
Oct 27, 2008
4,672
Still in Brighton
I've worked with many people diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia (some forensic patients, people with a mental disorder who are currently undergoing, or have previously undergone, legal or court proceedings). Terrible illness, often misunderstood because of awful cases like this one. How this chap was detained under the MH act and released after a short period with meds to self-administer, again and again, is a terrible indication of the state of MH services in the country. Many people will be blamed, likely working in under funded and under staffed services (with extremely high sickness absence levels), with huge case loads and unsympathetic bosses and an unsympathetic public. This incident of an awful murder probably could have been avoided, certainly should have been avoided. I have great sympathy for the victims - wrong place at the wrong time, incredibly incredibly unlucky - their family, the staff who tried to keep track of him and the killer himself (who should never have been living in the community).
 


Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
53,621
Goldstone
And you appear not to understand the idea that attempted murder, which is unsuccessful (in terms of killing someone), turns into manslaughter when successful basically defies all logic.

I do understand but that's the f***ing law! It's just semantics. They could add a new law called attempted killing, when someone attempts to kill someone when not fully in control of their actions, but the punishment would probably be the same as that for attempted murder, so adding court time to prove whether or not someone was in control when attempting but failing to kill someone seems, when the punishment will be the same, like a waste of court time.

By all means start campaigning for 'attempted killing' to be added to our laws. But right now it's not there, so just accept him being guilty of attempted murder, does not then make him guilty of murder where he did actually kill people.



Yeh, it might be a quirk of the legal system. Big deal, but still stupid.

So :shrug:
 
Last edited:






Triggaaar

Well-known member
Oct 24, 2005
53,621
Goldstone
No it doesn’t mean that at all - it means they will still be charged with murder but have their sentencing reduced to a manslaughter conviction through diminished responsibility (the burden of proof is on the defence)
They could also murder someone when not suffering from their condition.
 


Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
I've worked with many people diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia (some forensic patients, people with a mental disorder who are currently undergoing, or have previously undergone, legal or court proceedings). Terrible illness, often misunderstood because of awful cases like this one. How this chap was detained under the MH act and released after a short period with meds to self-administer, again and again, is a terrible indication of the state of MH services in the country. Many people will be blamed, likely working in under funded and under staffed services (with extremely high sickness absence levels), with huge case loads and unsympathetic bosses and an unsympathetic public. This incident of an awful murder probably could have been avoided, certainly should have been avoided. I have great sympathy for the victims - wrong place at the wrong time, incredibly incredibly unlucky - their family, the staff who tried to keep track of him and the killer himself (who should never have been living in the community).
Well said. A terrible situation all round.
 






WATFORD zero

Well-known member
NSC Patron
Jul 10, 2003
27,946
I've worked with many people diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia (some forensic patients, people with a mental disorder who are currently undergoing, or have previously undergone, legal or court proceedings). Terrible illness, often misunderstood because of awful cases like this one. How this chap was detained under the MH act and released after a short period with meds to self-administer, again and again, is a terrible indication of the state of MH services in the country. Many people will be blamed, likely working in under funded and under staffed services (with extremely high sickness absence levels), with huge case loads and unsympathetic bosses and an unsympathetic public. This incident of an awful murder probably could have been avoided, certainly should have been avoided. I have great sympathy for the victims - wrong place at the wrong time, incredibly incredibly unlucky - their family, the staff who tried to keep track of him and the killer himself (who should never have been living in the community).

Far more important in stopping it happening again than the wording of the conviction IMHO.
 


Thunder Bolt

Silly old bat
It's almost as if this harrowing case can't be boiled down to 6 words by a bunch of non criminal lawyers who weren't in court throughout the trial.
Every trial is unique, and has to be judged on evidence alone. I’m not sure why that needs spelling out.
 






Sheebo

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2003
29,319
I never get these sort of ‘pick one’ decisions as it simply isn’t that simple and we also don’t have all the facts. The simple answer is that nobody knows at all. Probably only the fella himself but even he may not know what he was thinking. It’s a tough debate, but one I don’t like picking a side over. The one fact that is important and incredibly sad is that 3 innocent people lost their lives.
 


rippleman

Well-known member
Oct 18, 2011
5,031
Barnaby Webber's mother was on R4 earlier this week. She is devastated by the verdict.

She pointed out that Calocane had carried out meticulous planning prior to the attacks. He knew, ahead of his actions, that he was intending to kill. This was NOT a spur of the moment psychotic episode where he had a momentary loss of control. This was a planned, pre-meditated attack.

That's murder in my book.
 


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