Non Season Ticket Holders Unite - Ticket Plans For Next Season

[Jim D]

Well you can't have everything can you ? STH's only looking to rock up for the big games and to flog off the lesser games won't get much sympathy from the club, or me for that matter. Nor should they (and this certainly wouldn't be the case for "most" STH's anyway). Neither does anyone have the right to get tickets on the cheap.

And as all games are likely to be sold out this season, I can't see anything in your post which negates why the club shouldn't adopt this Seatwave.com system Fulham use, or something just like it.

I can't see anything to stop them using something similar either, but I have a question and a few potential pitfalls...

Question: If you buy a PSL will you be able to sell your seat even if the match isn't sold out? I'm not sure if this was discussed but I would hope the answer is yes or there could be a lot of unhappy PSL holders who aren't able to get rid of unwanted tickets. If people buy a PSL I would expect it's because they have a seat they like, in a good location - and these seats would be easily sold (as opposed to one in the south-east corner).

Pitfalls: One possible problem is that, if you don't have a PSL and you're off for a lengthy midwinter break or have to work away from home, the match(es) you want to sell may not be sold out at the time you leave. Under the old NSC method it wouldn't matter as you could sell them at any time.
Also, one way of just about guaranteeing your seat would sell was to set a lower price than the club would ask - which will not only be impossible under this method but the buyer may also have to pay a booking fee (I haven't seen anything to say this wouldn't happen with Seatwave).

I also think that 'most' STHs will try to attend the big games - so only the lesser games will be readily available (and these are less likely to sell out).

I'm not saying that these issues couldn't be overcome but it just makes the whole process much more complex than handing over a paper ticket and receiving cash. probably best to just go to all the games.

 

[Dave the OAP]

I'm obviously far too THICK to understand all this clever stuff. Can you just answer my three simple questions?

Yes, Mr thicky thick Mcthickster

Its all perfectly clear...i say sod the non STH's we all have tickets and 1901 prawn sandwiches....

 

[Titanic]

I'm obviously far too THICK to understand all this clever stuff. Can you just answer my three simple questions?

Like most Companies you know they wouldn't, and you also know that you have not countered my arguement using reasoned evidence. You've have, however, attempted to change the conclusion that I reached to better support your case.

I guess that's what they call a 'spin doctor'.

Then again, if that is the standard of your answers... don't bother!

 

[Paxton Dazo]

My season ticket at Spurs is a card n all, and the only way you can sell a ticket is , as somebody said, to someone you trust OR you can sell it back to the club for 70% of what that game is worth (Cat A , B or C)

Why 70% ? Because Tottenham are a bunch of theiving .

 

[Titanic]

Can I just say that this thread has restored my faith in NSC as a place of enlightenment and joy! (and it's definitely better than working!!)

 

[Easy 10]

I can't see anything to stop them using something similar either, but I have a question and a few potential pitfalls...

Question: If you buy a PSL will you be able to sell your seat even if the match isn't sold out? I'm not sure if this was discussed but I would hope the answer is yes or there could be a lot of unhappy PSL holders who aren't able to get rid of unwanted tickets. If people buy a PSL I would expect it's because they have a seat they like, in a good location - and these seats would be easily sold (as opposed to one in the south-east corner).

As a PSL, even if the match isn't a sellout you can still sell your seat, you can do what you like with it. Its yours. Whether the seat actually SELLS for any given game is another matter, the club can hardly be held responsible if nobody rocks up and buys it off you. I guess you'd probably have an option of putting it up for sale and setting the price, ie if its not a sellout then reducing the price to shift it, or if its a sellout then bumping it up to take advantage. The point is, you legally OWN the seat, therefore its yours to do what you choose with it.

Its worth remembering that Seatwave / Fulham FC have decided themselves that they only implement the ticket exchange when the game is sold out. A PSL will be under no such restriction, which kind of answers the points in the rest of your post I guess. The main thing is, PSL means its your seat to sell on as you please.

 

[Storer 68]

I'm guessing 34064 FC has purchased a PSL and is DESPERATELY trying to justify it.

How anyone can argue a £500 PSL is better than the FREE Seatwave system is beyond me.

As a PSL holder, I thought I would add summat to the mix. The advantage of the PSL, as far as I see it, aprt from guaranteeing me first refusal to all games in the seat I have bought, I (and NOT the club) can SELL it on. with seatwave the ticket has to be returned to the club who then take the profit from selling it again.

And in the great scheme of things its not a huge increase on the ST cost. the PSL cost as much as another year's ST. And as my seat is West Stand Upper over the halfway line, I want some confidence that the club won't move me to the back of the north stand in the corner ( I was locked out of Jimmy Case's Testimonail) at the Goldstone!!!! - a ground which once could accommodate 36,000 was not able to deal with 19,000 and when you are on the wrong side of a closed turnstile of a game that you want to see, you tend to remember the feeling.

And the main diff between the PSL system and Seatwave, and its lilike, is that is ILLEGAL to sell football tickets in a secondary market.

 

[rool]

And the main diff between the PSL system and Seatwave, and its lilike, is that is ILLEGAL to sell football tickets in a secondary market.

Even if a club like Fulham operate that system?

 

[Biscuit]

I've got a private seat licence for my lovely seat in the North Stand. I work in London alot and will flog a ticket here and there.

 

[Easy 10]

As a PSL holder, I thought I would add summat to the mix. The advantage of the PSL, as far as I see it, aprt from guaranteeing me first refusal to all games in the seat I have bought, I (and NOT the club) can SELL it on. with seatwave the ticket has to be returned to the club who then take the profit from selling it again.

Wrong.
They take a commission for selling it, but the remaining proceeds from the sale are passed back to the season ticket holder. They even ask you your preferred method of receipt.

And the main diff between the PSL system and Seatwave, and its lilike, is that is ILLEGAL to sell football tickets in a secondary market.

How on earth have you arrived at that conclusion, when Fulham FC and Seatwave clearly have an above board, totally transparent online business arrangement to operate this ticket exchange system for Fulham season ticket holders and Fulham FC members ?

 

[Jim D]

I guess you'd probably have an option of putting it up for sale and setting the price, ie if its not a sellout then reducing the price to shift it, or if its a sellout then bumping it up to take advantage. The point is, you legally OWN the seat, therefore its yours to do what you choose with it.

Sounds like a PSL is a licence to tout. In that case I take back what I said about tickets only being available for the lesser games. All the top games could be on offer for 2 or 3 times their face value.

 

[Storer 68]

If this does come to pass maybe NSC could start some kind of Trusted Seagull scheme that brings together season ticket holders with their non season ticket holder brethren.

ooohhh the return of the "clique". How exciting!

 

[Storer 68]

Wrong.
They take a commission for selling it, but the remaining proceeds from the sale are passed back to the season ticket holder. They even ask you your preferred method of receipt.



How on earth have you arrived at that conclusion, when Fulham FC and Seatwave clearly have an above board, totally transparent online business arrangement to operate this ticket exchange system for Fulham season ticket holders and Fulham FC members ?

In the United Kingdom resale of football tickets is illegal under section 166 of the Criminal Justice and Public Order Act 1994 unless the resale is authorized by the organizer of the match, such as what viagogo is doing through its partnerships with clubs Chelsea, Manchester United and Everton
166 Sale of tickets by unauthorised persons.E+W[F1
(1)It is an offence for an unauthorised person to—
(a)sell a ticket for a designated football match, or
(b)otherwise to dispose of such a ticket to another person.]
(2)For this purpose—
(a)a person is “unauthorised” unless he is authorised in writing to sell [F2or otherwise dispose of] tickets for the match F3. . . by the organisers of the match;
[F4(aa)a reference to selling a ticket includes a reference to—
(i)offering to sell a ticket;
(ii)exposing a ticket for sale;
(iii)making a ticket available for sale by another;
(iv)advertising that a ticket is available for purchase; and
(v)giving a ticket to a person who pays or agrees to pay for some other goods or services or offering to do so.]
(b)a “ticket” means anything which purports to be a ticket; and
[F5(c)a “designated football match” means a football match of a description, or a particular football match, for the time being designated for the purposes of [F6this section by order made by the Secretary of State].]

[F7(2A)An order under subsection (2)(c) may designate descriptions of football matches wherever played or when played at descriptions of ground or in any area specified in the order.
(2B)The power of the Secretary of State to make an order under subsection (2)(c) shall be exercisable by statutory instrument which shall be subject to annulment in pursuance of a resolution of either House of Parliament.]
(3)A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 5 on the standard scale.
(4)F8. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
(5)Section 32 of the Police and Criminal Evidence Act 1984 (search of persons and premises (including vehicles) upon arrest) shall have effect, in its application in relation to an offence under this section, as if the power conferred on a constable to enter and search any vehicle extended to any vehicle which the constable has reasonable grounds for believing was being used for any purpose connected with the offence.
(6)The Secretary of State may by order made by statutory instrument apply this section, with such modifications as he thinks fit, to such sporting event or category of sporting event for which 6,000 or more tickets are issued for sale as he thinks fit.
(7)An order under subsection (6) above may provide that—
(a)a certificate (a “ticket sale certificate”) signed by a duly authorised officer certifying that 6,000 or more tickets were issued for sale for a sporting event is conclusive evidence of that fact;
(b)an officer is duly authorised if he is authorised in writing to sign a ticket sale certificate by F9. . . the organisers of the sporting event; and
(c)a document purporting to be a ticket sale certificate shall be received in evidence and deemed to be such a certificate unless the contrary is proved.
(8)Where an order has been made under subsection (6) above, this section also applies, with any modifications made by the order, to any part of the sporting event specified or described in the order, provided that 6,000 or more tickets are issued for sale for the day on which that part of the event takes place.
Annotations:Annotations are used to give authority for changes and other effects on the legislation you are viewing and to convey editorial information. They appear at the foot of the relevant provision or under the associated heading. Annotations are categorised by annotation type, such as F-notes for textual amendments and I-notes for commencement information (a full list can be found in the Editorial Practice Guide). Each annotation is identified by a sequential reference number. For F-notes, M-notes and X-notes, the number also appears in bold superscript at the relevant location in the text. All annotations contain links to the affecting legislation.


Amendments (Textual)

F1S. 166(1) substituted (6.4.2007) by Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (c. 38), ss. 53(2), 66(2)(3); S.I. 2007/858, art. 2(k)

F2Words in s. 166(2)(a) inserted (6.4.2007) by Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (c. 38), ss.53(3)(a)(i), 66(2)(3); S.I. 2007/858, art. 2(k)

F3Words in s. 166(2)(a) repealed (6.4.2007) by Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (c. 38), ss. 53(3)(a)(ii), 65, 66(2)(3), Sch. 5; S.I. 2007/858, art. 2(k)(vi)

F4S. 166(2)(aa) inserted (6.4.2007) by Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (c. 38), ss. 53(3)(b), 66(2)(3); S.I. 2007/858, art. 2(k)

F5S. 166(2)(c) substituted (27.9.1999) by 1999 c. 21, ss. 10, 12(2) (with s. 12(3))

F6Words in s. 166(2)(c) substituted (6.4.2007) by Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (c. 38), ss. 53(3)(c), 66(2)(3); S.I. 2007/858, art. 2(k)

F7S. 166(2A)(2B) inserted (6.4.2007) by Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (c. 38), ss. 53(4), 66(2)(3); S.I. 2007/858, art. 2(k)

F8S. 166(4) repealed (1.1.2006) by Serious Organised Crime and Police Act 2005 (c. 15), ss. 174, 178, Sch. 17 Pt. 2; S.I. 2005/3495, art. 2(1)(u)(xxxvi) (subject to art. 2)

F9Words in s. 166(7)(a) repealed (6.4.2007) by Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (c. 38), ss. 53(5), 65, 66(2)(3), Sch. 5; S.I. 2007/858, art. 2(k)(vi)

[F10166ASupplementary provision relating to sale and disposal of tickets on internetE+W(1)Nothing in section 166 makes it an offence for a service provider established outside of the United Kingdom to do anything in the course of providing information society services.
(2)If—
(a)a service provider established in the United Kingdom does anything in an EEA State other than the United Kingdom in the course of providing information society services, and
(b)the action, if done in England and Wales, would constitute an offence falling within section 166(1),
the service provider shall be guilty in England and Wales of an offence under that section.
(3)A service provider is not capable of being guilty of an offence under section 166 in respect of anything done in the course of providing so much of an information society service as consists in—
(a)the transmission in a communication network of information falling within subsection (4), or
(b)the storage of information provided by a recipient of the service,
except where subsection (5) applies.
(4)Information falls within this subsection if—
(a)it is provided by a recipient of the service; and
(b)it is the subject of automatic, intermediate and temporary storage which is solely for the purpose of making the onward transmission of the information to other recipients of the service at their request more efficient.
(5)This subsection applies at any time in relation to information if—
(a)the service provider knew when that information was provided that it contained material contravening section 166; or
(b)that information is stored at that time (whether as mentioned in subsection (3)(b) or (4)) in consequence of the service provider's failure expeditiously to remove the information, or to disable access to it, upon obtaining actual knowledge that the information contained material contravening section 166.
(6)In this section—
“the Directive” means Directive 2000/31/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 8 June 2000 on certain legal aspects of information society services, in particular electronic commerce, in the Internal Market (Directive on electronic commerce);
“information society services”—
(a)has the meaning set out in Article 2(a) of the Directive (which refers to Article 1(2) of Directive 98/34/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 22 June 1998 laying down a procedure for the provision of information in the field of technical standards and regulations, as amended by Directive 98/48/EC of 20 July 1998); and
(b)is summarised in recital 17 of the Directive as covering “any service normally provided for remuneration, at a distance, by means of electronic equipment for the processing (including digital compression) and storage of data, and at the individual request of a recipient of a service”;
“EEA State” means a state which is for the time being a member State, Norway, Iceland or Liechtenstein;
“recipient of the service” means any person who, for professional ends or otherwise, uses an information society service, in particular for the purposes of seeking information or making it accessible;
“service provider” means any person providing an information society service.]
Annotations:Annotations are used to give authority for changes and other effects on the legislation you are viewing and to convey editorial information. They appear at the foot of the relevant provision or under the associated heading. Annotations are categorised by annotation type, such as F-notes for textual amendments and I-notes for commencement information (a full list can be found in the Editorial Practice Guide). Each annotation is identified by a sequential reference number. For F-notes, M-notes and X-notes, the number also appears in bold superscript at the relevant location in the text. All annotations contain links to the affecting legislation.


Amendments (Textual)

F10S. 166A inserted (6.4.2007) by Violent Crime Reduction Act 2006 (c. 38), ss. 53(6), 66(2)(3); S.I. 2007/858, art. 2(k)

 

[Crouch End Seagull]

ooohhh the return of the "clique". How exciting!

Sorry, don't get that.

 

[Storer 68]

I'm sitting with a few friends, I imagine if one of us can't make it, one of us will take charge of their card, so lending it won't be an issue.

I don't imagine many people who might buy one will consider the PSL before making sure they are happy with their seat. I've had some bad experiences with annoying people with previous season ticket placements. I wouldn't want to be stuck in my seat for 50 years with somoene next to me who it's a struggle not to explode at over the season. Not to mention making sure I've got a decent view.

I imagine there will be a 'surge' in psl sales after the first couple of games, once people are sure they like their seat.

But remember, the card will hold ALL the season's games on it. So not just an individual paper tricket for an individual match will be exchanged. Your WHOLE season ticket will have to be exchanged. Best be sure, it comes back...........

 

[Storer 68]

Sorry, don't get that.

Tchah! Youngsters!

 

[Crouch End Seagull]

I take it no one's arsed that a Loyalty Scheme for away games will mean no non season ticket holders going to away games then?

Realise all these issues will go away when we're in League One again but I'd prefer to think that we will NEVER be in League One again.

 

[Bozza]

Like most Companies you know they wouldn't, and you also know that you have not countered my arguement using reasoned evidence. You've have, however, attempted to change the conclusion that I reached to better support your case.

I guess that's what they call a 'spin doctor'.

1000 empty seats (that the club have had to provision for as they do not know that season ticket holders won't turn up) returns £0. There is literally no chance of the occupants of those seats buying any merchandise or refreshments as, there are no occupants. If those 1000 seats are occupied there is an outside chance that at least one of the occupants might want a bag of Walkers.

- Overheads are the same for both scenarios.

- Revenue is greater for the 'occupied' scenario.

- Profit will be higher for the 'occupied' scenario, assuming refreshments and merchandise are not sold at a loss.

 

[Albion Dan]

But remember, the card will hold ALL the season's games on it. So not just an individual paper tricket for an individual match will be exchanged. Your WHOLE season ticket will have to be exchanged. Best be sure, it comes back...........

ERRRRR, Card doesnt come back, phone up club and say Ive had my ticket stolen, club issues you a new card = REALLY RISKY!

 

[Albion Dan]

I take it no one's arsed that a Loyalty Scheme for away games will mean no non season ticket holders going to away games then?

Realise all these issues will go away when we're in League One again but I'd prefer to think that we will NEVER be in League One again.

We will sell out about 5-7 away games next season. There will be plenty of tickets for everyone at most away games.