[Albion] No trains for Brentford

[Colonel Mustard]

Roundabouts on the M1?

Sudden braking when you see a trolley thrown onto the tracks or a person standing in the way as you drive round a bend at 80mh?

Driving a coach or any vehicle involves much more decision making than driving a train. Train drivers are overpaid because they have more clout, and you know it.

 

[seagullwedgee]

So, the driver doesn’t have to steer, because it’s on rails and it just goes where it goes, and he doesn’t have to go up and down, because it’s too heavy, so it just stays on the ground. And when it does need to change direction, someone else adjusts the points and uses red and green lights to inform the driver. So all the driver has to do is press the loud pedal to go, and the brake to stop, follow the coloured lights, and occasionally stop and press the ‘open door’ button. And for that he or she gets paid £37.50 per hour, and a shitload of perks, overtime, leave and benefits on top. Is this an accurate summary?

 

[jackalbion]

Driving a coach or any vehicle involves much more decision making than driving a train. Train drivers are overpaid because they have more clout, and you know it.

It doesn't they are both skilled jobs, there is a lot more decision making made on a train than you think. Both coach drivers and train drivers should be be paid well. I think you struggle to appreciate a lot of specific information in these jobs and go, well I know everything, I must be right, and you know it. I think a certain level of understanding or research is required from you. Yes Train Drivers are probably slightly over paid, why is that? Down to a good union, is this always a good thing, no, but generally yes. We have some of the safest railways in the world, compare the stats to North America (specifically Amtrak) and you'll be shocked. I think with the cuts to Network Rail and the amount of Landslips on the rise, the safety can be diminished without a second member of safety trained rail staff on board. The inconvenience of a strike is of course very annoying, but lots of things in life are very annoying, it is another one of those things. I think there should be an outrage that due to the lack of investment, we essentially have a non functioning rail system which can't cater for the demand and massively overcharges the customer, but any of the decision makers are more interested in a running battle with the unions rather than improving the system. That's what the focus of the strike should be in my opinion, always has been, I think the RMT did very well with this, by emphasising the ticket office closures. FWIW I do think the ASLEF Industrial Action will be solved in the new year, but we'll have to wait and see what the tories do, but they've settled with the RMT so there is a willingness to get this solved somewhere deep down at the DfT.

 

[jackalbion]

So, the driver doesn’t have to steer, because it’s on rails and it just goes where it goes, and he doesn’t have to go up and down, because it’s too heavy, so it just stays on the ground. And when it does need to change direction, someone else adjusts the points and uses red and green lights to inform the driver. So all the driver has to do is press the loud pedal to go, and the brake to stop, follow the coloured lights, and occasionally stop and press the ‘open door’ button. And for that he or she gets paid £37.50 per hour, and a shitload of perks, overtime, leave and benefits on top. Is this an accurate summary?

No

 

[schmunk]

So, the driver doesn’t have to steer, because it’s on rails and it just goes where it goes, and he doesn’t have to go up and down, because it’s too heavy, so it just stays on the ground. And when it does need to change direction, someone else adjusts the points and uses red and green lights to inform the driver. So all the driver has to do is press the loud pedal to go, and the brake to stop, follow the coloured lights, and occasionally stop and press the ‘open door’ button. And for that he or she gets paid £37.50 per hour, and a shitload of perks, overtime, leave and benefits on top. Is this an accurate summary?

No

Quite right - there are no pedals, just one handle to stop and go... (plus some other buttons to do other stuff)

 

[Hastings gull]

It doesn't they are both skilled jobs, there is a lot more decision making made on a train than you think. Both coach drivers and train drivers should be be paid well. I think you struggle to appreciate a lot of specific information in these jobs and go, well I know everything, I must be right, and you know it. I think a certain level of understanding or research is required from you. Yes Train Drivers are probably slightly over paid, why is that? Down to a good union, is this always a good thing, no, but generally yes. We have some of the safest railways in the world, compare the stats to North America (specifically Amtrak) and you'll be shocked. I think with the cuts to Network Rail and the amount of Landslips on the rise, the safety can be diminished without a second member of safety trained rail staff on board. The inconvenience of a strike is of course very annoying, but lots of things in life are very annoying, it is another one of those things. I think there should be an outrage that due to the lack of investment, we essentially have a non functioning rail system which can't cater for the demand and massively overcharges the customer, but any of the decision makers are more interested in a running battle with the unions rather than improving the system. That's what the focus of the strike should be in my opinion, always has been, I think the RMT did very well with this, by emphasising the ticket office closures. FWIW I do think the ASLEF Industrial Action will be solved in the new year, but we'll have to wait and see what the tories do, but they've settled with the RMT so there is a willingness to get this solved somewhere deep down at the DfT.

What I don't understand from your post is that we have, according to you, and I don't dispute it, one of the safest railways in the world, yet you also say that it suffers from a lack of investment and is a non-functioning system! Something does not add up here -would it be a case of a sympathetic politico doing his/her best to be somewhat selective with regard to Aslef's repeated antics?

 

[seagullwedgee]

Quite right - there are no pedals, just one handle to stop and go... (plus some other buttons to do other stuff)

That’s got less buttons than my Merc, and I don’t get paid a penny to understand all those buttons and drive it.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

That’s got less buttons than my Merc, and I don’t get paid a penny to understand all those buttons and drive it.

Yes, but your merc doesn't have a big red "Eject All Passengers" button that you have to resist the temptation to push all the way from Plymouth to Edinburgh.

 

[jackalbion]

What I don't understand from your post is that we have, according to you, and I don't dispute it, one of the safest railways in the world, yet you also say that it suffers from a lack of investment and is a non-functioning system! Something does not add up here -would it be a case of a sympathetic politico doing his/her best to be somewhat selective with regard to Aslef's repeated antics?

Non Functioning in terms of capacity, this country doesn't have enough carriages. If for example we use the Grantham to Nottingham service, if there is increased demand you can't increase the amount of carriages. The train companies are seeing demand for leisure travel increase but don't have the capacity to increase. We have one of the safest systems in the world, but the lack of investment, especially into network rail is starting to see the safety diminish. Take the example of the scot rail accident a few years ago, or the accident at Salisbury last year. Its clear with the lack of investment safety is lowering, and ASLEF would be better off pushing that agenda. If Southern wanted to increase capacity on the East Coastway route, they could fully cost it and have a plan how it would make profit, and the DfT would have to sign it off (which they don't). The way the system works is so fragmented, that it cannot anymore function correctly. The Non Functioning part refers to running the service solely on overtime and capacity constraints, and lack of ability to provide a service for the user. ASLEF drive me up the wall no end sometimes but thats their job and you have to respect it, but thats what it is as a part of a functioning industry, both sides need to sit round the table and negotiate, but if its a 'private' industry, the companies should do it on a local level rather than be dictated by the government.

 

[Sid and the Sharknados]

It doesn't they are both skilled jobs, there is a lot more decision making made on a train than you think. Both coach drivers and train drivers should be be paid well. I think you struggle to appreciate a lot of specific information in these jobs and go, well I know everything, I must be right, and you know it. I think a certain level of understanding or research is required from you. Yes Train Drivers are probably slightly over paid, why is that? Down to a good union, is this always a good thing, no, but generally yes. We have some of the safest railways in the world, compare the stats to North America (specifically Amtrak) and you'll be shocked. I think with the cuts to Network Rail and the amount of Landslips on the rise, the safety can be diminished without a second member of safety trained rail staff on board. The inconvenience of a strike is of course very annoying, but lots of things in life are very annoying, it is another one of those things. I think there should be an outrage that due to the lack of investment, we essentially have a non functioning rail system which can't cater for the demand and massively overcharges the customer, but any of the decision makers are more interested in a running battle with the unions rather than improving the system. That's what the focus of the strike should be in my opinion, always has been, I think the RMT did very well with this, by emphasising the ticket office closures. FWIW I do think the ASLEF Industrial Action will be solved in the new year, but we'll have to wait and see what the tories do, but they've settled with the RMT so there is a willingness to get this solved somewhere deep down at the DfT.

Given you say yourself that train drivers are "probably" overpaid, would you accept criticism of ASLEF for distracting from the railway's actual issues by striking for more pay at this time (without diminishing the government's responsibility)?

Edit: I think you've been clearer on this point in the post you put up as I was writing that.

 

[jackalbion]

Given you say yourself that train drivers are "probably" overpaid, would you accept criticism of ASLEF for distracting from the railway's actual issues by striking for more pay at this time (without diminishing the government's responsibility)?

To an extent, yes, but also at the same time, the cost of living has risen for everyone, I don't think it should be a case of saying well nurses should be paid more, but Train Drivers shouldn't both should be able to rise. Currently its a very well sort after job, it would be interesting to see the recruitment stats if pay was lowered. Arguably thats the case in Europe, and while some more Western European nations have very good service, a lot of Eastern Europe the rail system is a complete and utter mess.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Non Functioning in terms of capacity, this country doesn't have enough carriages. If for example we use the Grantham to Nottingham service, if there is increased demand you can't increase the amount of carriages. The train companies are seeing demand for leisure travel increase but don't have the capacity to increase. We have one of the safest systems in the world, but the lack of investment, especially into network rail is starting to see the safety diminish. Take the example of the scot rail accident a few years ago, or the accident at Salisbury last year. Its clear with the lack of investment safety is lowering, and ASLEF would be better off pushing that agenda. If Southern wanted to increase capacity on the East Coastway route, they could fully cost it and have a plan how it would make profit, and the DfT would have to sign it off (which they don't). The way the system works is so fragmented, that it cannot anymore function correctly. The Non Functioning part refers to running the service solely on overtime and capacity constraints, and lack of ability to provide a service for the user. ASLEF drive me up the wall no end, but thats what it is as a part of a functioning industry, both sides need to sit round the table and negotiate, but if its a 'private' industry, the companies should do it on a local level rather than be dictated by the government.

You've just given me a flash back. Arrgggghhh!

Perhaps @Colonel Mustard @seagullwedgee and @Hastings gull could have gone in the cab and taken turns driving ours as it's so easy and we could have squeezed on three more of the gang?

 

[Hastings gull]

Non Functioning in terms of capacity, this country doesn't have enough carriages. If for example we use the Grantham to Nottingham service, if there is increased demand you can't increase the amount of carriages. The train companies are seeing demand for leisure travel increase but don't have the capacity to increase. We have one of the safest systems in the world, but the lack of investment, especially into network rail is starting to see the safety diminish. Take the example of the scot rail accident a few years ago, or the accident at Salisbury last year. Its clear with the lack of investment safety is lowering, and ASLEF would be better off pushing that agenda. If Southern wanted to increase capacity on the East Coastway route, they could fully cost it and have a plan how it would make profit, and the DfT would have to sign it off (which they don't). The way the system works is so fragmented, that it cannot anymore function correctly. The Non Functioning part refers to running the service solely on overtime and capacity constraints, and lack of ability to provide a service for the user. ASLEF drive me up the wall no end, but thats what it is as a part of a functioning industry, both sides need to sit round the table and negotiate, but if its a 'private' industry, the companies should do it on a local level rather than be dictated by the government.

Thanks and I do not claim to have any real knowledge, other than what I see in front of me, which I imagine applies to most folk. One thing I do not understand about the rail industry is this -why does it rely on overtime working at weekends; I have to drive home on Saturday after the match as due to the overtime ban the last train leaves Lewes at 16.30, which gives an idea into the scale of overtime working. My son in law is with the Police and when he has overtime it is on time and a half/quarter etc. Why not simply? employ more drivers and then weekend working would be part of the normal working deal as it with so many other service providers, where salaries presumably remain the same. He would only get extra for a weekend if it happened to be on a public holiday, for example. Surely that would be cheaper? But the cynic in me thinks that perhaps Aslef are only too happy for this to continue, as their salaries are thus higher (ok, fair enough) and they can put undue pressure on the employer by refusing to do it in support of pay demands.

 

[Hastings gull]

You've just given me a flash back. Arrgggghhh!

Perhaps @Colonel Mustard @seagullwedgee and @Hastings gull could have gone in the cab and taken turns driving ours as it's so easy and we could have squeezed on three more of the gang?

No one likes a clever dick . .

 

[jackalbion]

Thanks and I do not claim to have any real knowledge, other than what I see in front of me, which I imagine applies to most folk. One thing I do not understand about the rail industry is this -why does it rely on overtime working at weekends; I have to drive home on Saturday after the match as due to the overtime ban the last train leaves Lewes at 16.30, which gives an idea into the scale of overtime working. My son in law is with the Police and when he has overtime it is on time and a half/quarter etc. Why not simply? employ more drivers and then weekend working would be part of the normal working deal as it with so many other service providers, where salaries presumably remain the same. He would only get extra for a weekend if it happened to be on a public holiday, for example. Surely that would be cheaper? But the cynic in me thinks that perhaps Aslef are only too happy for this to continue, as their salaries are thus higher (ok, fair enough) and they can put undue pressure on the employer by refusing to do it in support of pay demands.

Ultimately it will have to be signed off by the DfT which is a massive blocker post pandemic. You have to get their permission to recruit and they are fine-combing everything. I believe that they are attempting a T&Cs shift as part of the deal that would make it part of the working week, but don't think they'll get far with it. Avanti are a great example of having not enough drivers but their CEO is the same CEO as the rail delivery group (a DfT puppet org) so its not in his interest to recruit. That's before we even get started on the ROSCOs.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

So, the driver doesn’t have to steer, because it’s on rails and it just goes where it goes, and he doesn’t have to go up and down, because it’s too heavy, so it just stays on the ground. And when it does need to change direction, someone else adjusts the points and uses red and green lights to inform the driver. So all the driver has to do is press the loud pedal to go, and the brake to stop, follow the coloured lights, and occasionally stop and press the ‘open door’ button. And for that he or she gets paid £37.50 per hour, and a shitload of perks, overtime, leave and benefits on top. Is this an accurate summary?

Planes are even easier…..point the thing in the right direction, take off and stick the autopilot on; how difficult can than be? I’ve even seen pilots stroll around the cabin during a flight.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

Ultimately it will have to be signed off by the DfT which is a massive blocker post pandemic. You have to get their permission to recruit and they are fine-combing everything. I believe that they are attempting a T&Cs shift as part of the deal that would make it part of the working week, but don't think they'll get far with it. Avanti are a great example of having not enough drivers but their CEO is the same CEO as the rail delivery group (a DfT puppet org) so its not in his interest to recruit. That's before we even get started on the ROSCOs.

Really makes you wonder what the end game is here. We live on a piddly little island with a huge private car usage problem and a fantastic (even post-Beeching) rail network. The Tories have squeezed every last ounce of profit out of privatisation, yet they still want more. WTF?!

 

[Hastings gull]

Ultimately it will have to be signed off by the DfT which is a massive blocker post pandemic. You have to get their permission to recruit and they are fine-combing everything. I believe that they are attempting a T&Cs shift as part of the deal that would make it part of the working week, but don't think they'll get far with it. Avanti are a great example of having not enough drivers but their CEO is the same CEO as the rail delivery group (a DfT puppet org) so its not in his interest to recruit. That's before we even get started on the ROSCOs.

Thanks again but if they are private companies, why does the DfT need to give permission. I am not doubting you, just curious as to how this all works, or perhaps doesn't work. All my life the railways service has been criticised for being poor with as ever everyone blaming each other. In fairness, though I know from many comments on HSC it hasn't been everyone's experience, my own experience is that the Saturday service to the Amex from Hastings and back has been pretty good, with 8 coach trains largely the norm and turning up on time.

 

[jackalbion]

Thanks again but if they are private companies, why does the DfT need to give permission. I am not doubting you, just curious as to how this all works, or perhaps doesn't work. All my life the railways service has been criticised for being poor with as ever everyone blaming each other. In fairness, though I know from many comments on HSC it hasn't been everyone's experience, my own experience is that the Saturday service to the Amex from Hastings and back has been pretty good, with 8 coach trains largely the norm and turning up on time.

Because Grant Shapps essentially brought them back into some kind of weird nationalisation during the pandemic, which probably be best described as a PFI contract on crack. In fairness to the DfT they spent a lot of money during the pandemic to keep the network running so need to claim some money back, but the only way they seem to do this is by making cuts, which is making the railway unpopular to use. Its incredibly mismanaged from top to bottom. Of course some things should be cut, but a lot of it now is a detriment to the service. A lot of stuff that was eliminated was duplication (which wouldn't happen under a nationalised network). For example there used to be a twice a day London Bridge to Guildford service and return, which was cut as Guildford of course is served by 12 trains an hour to London. This is good cutting as the service was only there for historical reasons, and the alternative route was minimally used by some commuters who preferred to get direct into London Bridge. Bad cutting however was eliminating the West Worthing to Brighton stopper which used to pick up people from smaller stations and spread the timetable across the hour at some stations so passengers had more options. Now there is a problem with full trains leaving passengers behind on that route (especially on matchday). There needs to be a balance and the DfT are not doing very well at it. Stock withdrawals without replacement are also heavily impacting networks, its all getting a bit silly IMO.

 

[seagullwedgee]

I’m sorry for my obtuse comment earlier. I live 127 miles from the Amex, coming up for 50 years a fan, 35+ years seriously long distance, a decent normal return run for a home game is 11 hours plus, but this time these strikes have gone on so long and are killing me, it’s often 14 hours plus and getting home at 3.00am. They have lost my sympathy I’m afraid, but I shouldn’t mock their trade and their skills, I’m sorry.