[News] Nigel Farage and Reform

[WATFORD zero]

ECHR judges are elected by members of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe. Members of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe are appointed and not elected (at least the UK members). It is not ideal that unelected individuals are responsible for electing officials who sit in judgement on us. Can you name one ECHR judge or one UK member of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe?

You do know the British Judiciary isn't elected ?

 

[Peteinblack]

From the latest (Right-wing) The Spectator - written by Matthew Parris (a lifelong Tory).

 

[Baldseagull]

ECHR judges are elected by members of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe. Members of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe are appointed and not elected (at least the UK members). It is not ideal that unelected individuals are responsible for electing officials who sit in judgement on us. Can you name one ECHR judge or one UK member of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe?

Sorry to quote you twice, but usually it is UK judges that are implementing the European Convention on Human Rights, in UK courts. How many cases from the UK do you reckon the European Court has dealt with since 1975?

 

[Simster]

ECHR judges are elected by members of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe. Members of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe are appointed and not elected (at least the UK members). It is not ideal that unelected individuals are responsible for electing officials who sit in judgement on us. Can you name one ECHR judge or one UK member of the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe?

How are UK judges appointed?

You do know the British Judiciary isn't elected ?

This is what I mean. It's just ill-informed bollocks. All these twats using the tired old "undemocratic Europe" trope, have absolutely no awareness of our own failings.

Our head of state has been unelected for centuries and the monarch's brother is possibly a nonce and won't see justice. Our last 2 PMs were not elected into those positions by the people. Our government have lined the pockets of donors using all manner of shady fast track schemes during the epidemic. And now we have seen a scandal where sub post office masters have committed suicide and wrongly been sent to prison because the people with power didn't care enough to investigate overwhelming evidence that the IT systems didn't work.

 

[nicko31]

Promoting leaving the EHCR as a solution to a few too many boats crossing the channel says all you need to know about the morons in Reform and the cretins who think they're the answer to everything.

That meme of an English twat cutting off a tree branch 150 feet up while sitting on it would be perfect for this scenario if it hadn't already been used to death to encapsulate Brexit - another "brilliant" Reform idea. They and their followers are the thickest group of people in the country.

Like Brexit, all sounds simple but the reality would be a total mess. Start with TCA and GFA, twatty policy design to appeal to twatty people

 

[Baldseagull]

This is what I mean. It's just ill-informed bollocks. All these twats using the tired old "undemocratic Europe" trope, have absolutely no awareness of our own failings.

Our head of state has been unelected for centuries and the monarch's brother is possibly a nonce and won't see justice. Our last 2 PMs were not elected into those positions by the people. Our government have lined the pockets of donors using all manner of shady fast track schemes during the epidemic. And now we have seen a scandal where sub post office masters have committed suicide and wrongly been sent to prison because the people with power didn't care enough to investigate overwhelming evidence that the IT systems didn't work.

Given the alternative of politically appointed judges, as with the US Supreme Court, I don't see it as a failing that the Judiciary is appointed by a committee with some understanding.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

I think people on this thread are being most unfair calling all Reform supporters thick. I am going to prove that a Reform poster exists who is capable of more than simply copying a one liner (frequently 3 words) from a pamphlet onto an NSC post and is actually able to discuss the implications of putting the policy that they say is winning their vote into practice.

I accept that my multiple attempts on this thread to prove such a poster exists have been somewhat less than successful so far, but I am ever the optimist and believe it may go better than a similar campaign I ran a few years back

I believe I have only asked half a dozen individual posters on this thread so far, all of whom have failed to respond, so I'll put it out there.

Which policy has been thought through, is costed and implementable and has convinced you to vote Reform ?

I feel like we've been here before. We can mock them, because they're easy to mock. We can laugh at their policies, smirk at their reasoning, feel exasperated at their gullibility and gasp at the brazenness of the lies they fall for. But we're not changing anyone's minds, we're not getting any closer to winning the argument. We did this in 2016 and then watched as the country voted for Brexit.

I watched that video of Clacton voters that was put on a few pages back, and its a bunch of people that aren't that articulate, don't have all the answers, but just know and feel that they don't have someone standing up for them. They know the Tories talk one thing and do another, and they know Labour have different agendas. Of course someone like Farage will appeal. Because ultimately how you feel is the most important thing, and you can bombard people with facts and reasoning til you are blue in the face, but if you can't get to the bottom of why they feel the way they do, you won't change their mind.

When the main parties lose their way we allow the more extreme views to take over. When the Tories become most obsessed with serving their donors and feathering their own nests, they lose the faith of their base. And when the left get more obsessed with niche 'wokey' issues like gender rights and promoting immigrant cultures and even net zero, they lose the faith of their base. And that allows the likes of Farage to get a foothold. The main parties need to be attractive to voters and deliver for the people when elected. I have faith in Starmer but its a long way back for the Tories.

 

[Peteinblack]

This is what I mean. It's just ill-informed bollocks. All these twats using the tired old "undemocratic Europe" trope, have absolutely no awareness of our own failings.

Our head of state has been unelected for centuries and the monarch's brother is possibly a nonce and won't see justice. Our last 2 PMs were not elected into those positions by the people. Our government have lined the pockets of donors using all manner of shady fast track schemes during the epidemic. And now we have seen a scandal where sub post office masters have committed suicide and wrongly been sent to prison because the people with power didn't care enough to investigate overwhelming evidence that the IT systems didn't work.

What always strikes me is that whenever ordinary British workers are stitched-up like this by corrupt or grossly incompetent bosses, our self-proclaimed patriots are silent.

I don't recall hearing any criticism of Paula Venells, or words of support for the wronged sub-postmasters, from 'man of the people' Nigel Farage - or Boris Johnson, Lee Anderson, or Jacob Rees-Mogg.

 

[WATFORD zero]

I feel like we've been here before. We can mock them, because they're easy to mock. We can laugh at their policies, smirk at their reasoning, feel exasperated at their gullibility and gasp at the brazenness of the lies they fall for. But we're not changing anyone's minds, we're not getting any closer to winning the argument. We did this in 2016 and then watched as the country voted for Brexit.

I watched that video of Clacton voters that was put on a few pages back, and its a bunch of people that aren't that articulate, don't have all the answers, but just know and feel that they don't have someone standing up for them. They know the Tories talk one thing and do another, and they know Labour have different agendas. Of course someone like Farage will appeal. Because ultimately how you feel is the most important thing, and you can bombard people with facts and reasoning til you are blue in the face, but if you can't get to the bottom of why they feel the way they do, you won't change their mind.

When the main parties lose their way we allow the more extreme views to take over. When the Tories become most obsessed with serving their donors and feathering their own nests, they lose the faith of their base. And when the left get more obsessed with niche 'wokey' issues like gender rights and promoting immigrant cultures and even net zero, they lose the faith of their base. And that allows the likes of Farage to get a foothold. The main parties need to be attractive to voters and deliver for the people when elected. I have faith in Starmer but its a long way back for the Tories.

If they wanted an option that is "obsessed with niche 'wokey' issues like gender rights and promoting immigrant cultures and even net zero" there's the Green Party and if they want a centrist party there's 2024 Labour or Lib/Dems. And the irony of only the conservatives being "obsessed with serving their donors and feathering their own nests" whilst voting Reform we won't even start on

So why are they voting for a party whose candidates contain a heady mix of racists, facisists, homophobes, islamophobes, misogynists, antisemites, nazi sympathisers, Putin supporters, Trump supporters, Andrew Tate supporters, conspiracy theorists etc etc (Obviously much to Farage's dismay and disappointment) with no realistic policies.

I can't imagine why

 

[nicko31]

I feel like we've been here before. We can mock them, because they're easy to mock. We can laugh at their policies, smirk at their reasoning, feel exasperated at their gullibility and gasp at the brazenness of the lies they fall for. But we're not changing anyone's minds, we're not getting any closer to winning the argument. We did this in 2016 and then watched as the country voted for Brexit.

I watched that video of Clacton voters that was put on a few pages back, and its a bunch of people that aren't that articulate, don't have all the answers, but just know and feel that they don't have someone standing up for them. They know the Tories talk one thing and do another, and they know Labour have different agendas. Of course someone like Farage will appeal. Because ultimately how you feel is the most important thing, and you can bombard people with facts and reasoning til you are blue in the face, but if you can't get to the bottom of why they feel the way they do, you won't change their mind.

When the main parties lose their way we allow the more extreme views to take over. When the Tories become most obsessed with serving their donors and feathering their own nests, they lose the faith of their base. And when the left get more obsessed with niche 'wokey' issues like gender rights and promoting immigrant cultures and even net zero, they lose the faith of their base. And that allows the likes of Farage to get a foothold. The main parties need to be attractive to voters and deliver for the people when elected. I have faith in Starmer but its a long way back for the Tories.

Efforts should be focussed on the con artists, spives and snake oil salesman that prey on the disaffected.

There are potential victims that are interested in a sensible conversation, and then there a total twats that following a cult and aren't worth wasting energy on.

Most people will run a mile when when presented with facts that reveal Farage's real character not the faux facade of the bloke down the pub

 

[Pondicherry]

You do know the British Judiciary isn't elected ?

Are you saying this is a good thing?

 

[Pondicherry]

How are UK judges appointed?

The independent Judicial Appointments Commission.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Are you saying this is a good thing?

Yes I am.

If you want to understand what an elected Judiciary looks like take a look at the American system. In fact I can't think of any other countries that elect their judiciary off the top of my head, but I'm sure there must be some.

 

[Pondicherry]

Sorry to quote you twice, but usually it is UK judges that are implementing the European Convention on Human Rights, in UK courts. How many cases from the UK do you reckon the European Court has dealt with since 1975?

330.

 

[Pondicherry]

This is what I mean. It's just ill-informed bollocks. All these twats using the tired old "undemocratic Europe" trope, have absolutely no awareness of our own failings.

Our head of state has been unelected for centuries and the monarch's brother is possibly a nonce and won't see justice. Our last 2 PMs were not elected into those positions by the people. Our government have lined the pockets of donors using all manner of shady fast track schemes during the epidemic. And now we have seen a scandal where sub post office masters have committed suicide and wrongly been sent to prison because the people with power didn't care enough to investigate overwhelming evidence that the IT systems didn't work.

You seem to be saying that unelected individuals who have significant control of our lives (using valid UK examples) is a bad thing.

 

[Nobby]

You seem to be saying that unelected individuals who have significant control of our lives (using valid UK examples) is a bad thing.

What they're saying is that it makes no difference to you or me whatsoever. Doesn't matter which judges judge or which politicians embezzle.
You and me are not impacted one jot.
BUT
If someone wants to take away your own Human Rights (even water it down somehow) - mine and yours, doesn't that make you just a teeny bit nervous.
And ask why? why would someone want to do that to it's own people.
Why would it's people want to join the Russians, Chinese, Belorussians, North Koreans, Iranians.
Or maybe you're just content to be led by the nose like they were and are.

 

[Pondicherry]

Yes I am.

If you want to understand what an elected Judiciary looks like take a look at the American system. In fact I can't think of any others that elect their judiciary off the top of my head, but I'm sure there must be some.

Maybe judges could be appointed by an independent panel. Some countries use an examination system and as you say, some directly elect. My point is that the selection of judges by a political body that was not elected, does not seem to be in our interests.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Maybe judges could be appointed by an independent panel. Some countries use an examination system and as you say, some directly elect. My point is that the selection of judges by a political body that was not elected, does not seem to be in our interests.

Don't wish to appear rude but you started posting by saying that the ECHR aren't elected and it was pointed out to you that, with the exception of USA nobody elects their judiciary. Your point is ?

And talking of points, back to the actual one, do you want to stay in the ECHR or leave ?

 

[Pondicherry]

What they're saying is that it makes no difference to you or me whatsoever. Doesn't matter which judges judge or which politicians embezzle.
You and me are not impacted one jot.
BUT
If someone wants to take away your own Human Rights (even water it down somehow) - mine and yours, doesn't that make you just a teeny bit nervous.
And ask why? why would someone want to do that to it's own people.
Why would it's people want to join the Russians, Chinese, Belorussians, North Koreans, Iranians.
Or maybe you're just content to be led by the nose like they were and are.

Sorry, I don't understand the first bit. How are we not impacted if judges and politicians are corrupt?

On the second part, I agree that we should protect Human Rights. My point is that we have individuals who we don't really know and didn't have any say in their selection, determining an interpretation of what those Human Rights should be.

 

[Deportivo Seagull]

That's a bit out of order calling people thicko's.
It's anyones right to vote for whoever they want too. Because you don't agree with their choice of vote gives you no right to call them thick.

That is true but really … reform? If you are a Reform voter ( or Tory for that matter) can you please explain exactly what part of the ECHR that you disagree with such that you want us to leave. I find it ironic that reform who are more than happy to use Churchill name are trying to trash one of his greatest accomplishments.