[Football] Next team to suffer racist abuse at Spurs....

[Sorrel]

True. But I am not aware of an increase in the percent of people who would now report a hate crime. Where did you read this?

What is certain is that more hate crimes are being reported than previously. It could be because people are more likely to report an incident now that they would have let go in the past, it could be that the number of incidents have increased. Additionally, everyone who claims a hate crime has taken place will get it recorded now and I don't think that was the case in the past.

For example, hate crime against disabled people has gone up from 1,748 in 2011/12 to 8,256 reported incidents in 2018/19. Is this because we are as a nation four times more disliking of disabled people over those years? I think that unlikely. It's more likely that people are reporting incidents that previously they let go. That doesn't actually help us determine if hate crimes against disabled people have got worse over those years or not. The same is true for all other reported types of hate crime.

What is certainly true is that authorities are all taking hate crime very seriously these days and it is not social acceptable to the extent that maybe it was 30 years ago.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

What is certain is that more hate crimes are being reported than previously. It could be because people are more likely to report an incident now that they would have let go in the past, it could be that the number of incidents have increased. Additionally, everyone who claims a hate crime has taken place will get it recorded now and I don't think that was the case in the past.

For example, hate crime against disabled people has gone up from 1,748 in 2011/12 to 8,256 reported incidents in 2018/19. Is this because we are as a nation four times more disliking of disabled people over those years? I think that unlikely. It's more likely that people are reporting incidents that previously they let go. That doesn't actually help us determine if hate crimes against disabled people have got worse over those years or not. The same is true for all other reported types of hate crime.

What is certainly true is that authorities are all taking hate crime very seriously these days and it is not social acceptable to the extent that maybe it was 30 years ago.

Possibly. But as I said in my previous post is there any evidence that people are more inclined to report hate crime these days? Or is it because, for whatever reason, bigots are more emboldened and rate of the crime has actually increased?

 

[Saunders]

True. But I am not aware of an increase in the percent of people who would now report a hate crime. Where did you read this?

Going home from their new stadium last season there were a group of spurs fans giving the homophobic chants. To be fair a number of their own fans were obviously embarrased by it but said nothing. Next time I think I will report it. Clearly this club has a problem.

 

[Hastings gull]

What is certain is that more hate crimes are being reported than previously. It could be because people are more likely to report an incident now that they would have let go in the past, it could be that the number of incidents have increased. Additionally, everyone who claims a hate crime has taken place will get it recorded now and I don't think that was the case in the past.

For example, hate crime against disabled people has gone up from 1,748 in 2011/12 to 8,256 reported incidents in 2018/19. Is this because we are as a nation four times more disliking of disabled people over those years? I think that unlikely. It's more likely that people are reporting incidents that previously they let go. That doesn't actually help us determine if hate crimes against disabled people have got worse over those years or not. The same is true for all other reported types of hate crime.

What is certainly true is that authorities are all taking hate crime very seriously these days and it is not social acceptable to the extent that maybe it was 30 years ago.

I fully agree with your points, and would also add that as reporting such crimes becomes ever more fashionable, the definition of what constitutes a hate crime is ever wider, which also accounts for the rise.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Possibly. But as I said in my previous post is there any evidence that people are more inclined to report hate crime these days? Or is it because, for whatever reason, bigots are more emboldened and rate of the crime has actually increased?

I don’t know. Nor do the people on this and other threads asserting the latter as fact to suit their politics. It seems pretty despicable to me to hijack a thread on racist abuse to make unsupported causal links to other political issues.

 

[RossyG]

I'll quote you:

Fare executive director Piara Powar said: “There remains throughout football a rump of people, who in 2019, will see the political atmosphere as a cover for their own racism and prejudice.”

That just sounds like her opinion, though. Does she support this with facts?

 

[Guinness Boy]

Possibly. But as I said in my previous post is there any evidence that people are more inclined to report hate crime these days? Or is it because, for whatever reason, bigots are more emboldened and rate of the crime has actually increased?

This is purely anecdotal so there is no evidence to it other than this is a genuine conversation at our family get together yesterday. My mum lives in London and was on a bus. A mixed race guy was listening to something on his phone without headphones on the bus. I personally find that really annoying. However. the guy that complained out loud about it instead of rolling his eyes did so in racial terms and that led to other people intervening on behalf of the mixed race guy. The intervener turned round and accused the bus of being "remainers" and "snowflakes".

I'd say that was pretty sad except it sounded to me exactly like a page full of posts on the Brexit thread on this very site. I'd say I'm also on dangerous ground just recalling this on a thread that is supposedly about football when I fully support the sticky about keeping politics out of other threads. But my point is, especially in London, that both racism and anti-racism have been normalised over the last few years and it's now a case of what side you are on or tribe you have joined. It's not dissimilar to Brighton / Palace in some ways.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

[/B]

But neither of the two posters where you disagree have said that it is acceptable, or have said that it is innocent banter,.

Correct.



Most sensible people agree with you? Not the most convincing of rhetorical gambits. Recorded hate crimes may have gone up, but that doesn’t mean racism has increased, it just means that people are more likely to report it.



Which is the point I was originally addressing.



Could you post direct quotes for when either of us has said that taking the Mickey out of someone because of the colour of their skin is acceptable, please?

To Hastings Gull, I didn't say, or even mean to imply, that they had.

To RossyG, I don't disagree with anything you gave said. I would agree with what I think is your point that the racism has probably always been there, but it's more out in the open now. I would maintain that, for some people, Brexit and it's associated stuff makes it more acceptable. I am not sure what to make of the stories along the lines of "now they have voted Brexit through, I won't have to live next door to you any more" to a neighbour of foreign extraction. I take them with a pinch of salt. But if they are true, it shows the appalling level of ignorance of some people.

I haven't said that anyone has actually said that "taking the mickey out of someone is acceptable". There was a very intentional IF there.

 

[Weststander]

That just sounds like her opinion, though. Does she support this with facts?

This. A Brighton fan may racially abuse Zaha, Burnley fans target Brighton with race or homophobe hate. There’s no evidence that Brexit or the polarisation of UK politics is causing this.

It may simply be the age old trait of thick or/and hateful scum to latch on to a football club, and pedal their often criminal bile, especially against a rival club. Players and some fans have suffered this in a big way since at least the 70’s. Perhaps it’s diminishing .... some Burnley fans wre disgusted by homophobic fellow supporters, most fans would now be disgusted by bananas being thrown at black players. Would’ve they felt the same when John Barnes took their team apart back in the day? It was accepted or ignored then.

 

[LamieRobertson]

As an aside I see Tottenham have appealed Sons red card....back on topic ...ive not really had much chance to look into the facts of yesterday’s incident...was this one person and one occasion?

In addition has there been much debate about the bottle that narrowly missed the Chelsea goalie?

 

[Hampster Gull]

Racist abuse or homophobic chanting?
QPR (was it 3 years back) walking back to the coach and a few oppo fans started the 'we can see you' chant. Police weren't interested when approached despite witnessing it.
I have strong thoughts about all this, and I'll put my hands up straight away to monkey chanting in the 70's at the Goldstone.
Scenario, a black guy is picked on by a white guy.
In a room of 100 people, another white guy will say something racist.
In a room of 1000 people, two white guys will back the white guy.
In a room of 10,000 people, 10 white guys may start a fight against the black guy.
In a stadium of 60,000 fans, 1 white guy said something. How can we stop that?
Also, if Spurs are 0:2 down, what's to stop the crowd chanting racist songs to get the game stopped?
Personally, I'm an old man now and completely changed, but not everyone has changed their attitudes, I just don't know how to solve it.

Education and time

 

[clapham_gull]

Of course it is relevant -what a strange response. He was highlighting the fact that some/many muslim women are forced to wear such gear, which might well be a storm worth stirring, but obviously you think it is not.

And as the above post sadly proves, completely normalised.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

People making monkey noises at black footballers is fallout from us leaving the EU and that's a fact? Where's the evidence?

How about other countries in the EU, ones that aren't leaving anytime soon? Is racist abuse at football not happening there?

The evidence is from the Ministry of Justice, via the police, CPS and the courts.

Your second paragraph is whataboutery.

 

[wellquickwoody]

That is such a daily mail answer. Don't like the fact? Then question the veracity of the fact. Up is down, black is white and the right wing conquer the world.

So we should all just accept whatever is published without question? Righty ho, good luck with that then............

 

[Thunder Bolt]

I fully agree with your points, and would also add that as reporting such crimes becomes ever more fashionable, the definition of what constitutes a hate crime is ever wider, which also accounts for the rise.

When a Muslim woman in Milton Keynes gets kicked in the stomach, and loses her baby, it is quite disingenuous to post that reporting hate crimes as fashionable.

 

[Weststander]

The evidence is from the Ministry of Justice, via the police, CPS and the courts.

Your second paragraph is whataboutery.

But, a genuine question, was racism and homophobia reported in the good old days?

I would imagine that victims rarely did, witnesses couldn’t be bothered, and the police didn’t care.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Attempt to derail a thread about racism by linking to your views on membership of the EU.
I would imagine this flouts the board’s new rule on such matters.
[MENTION=6886]Bozza[/MENTION]
?

WTF are you on about? Im not trying to derail the thread, I'm giving my opinion about why there's more racism at fotball in the news and more hate crime in general. It is government policy to get immigration down and to take back control, and this suggests too many people are here. This has created a climate in this country now of "send the immigrants back", and therefore you get more racist sh*t going on. It's not new, it's not just our problem but Britain has changed.

 

[clapham_gull]

WTF are you on about? Im not trying to derail the thread, I'm giving my opinion about why there's more racism at fotball in the news and more hate crime in general. It is government policy to get immigration down and to take back control, and this suggests too many people are here. This has created a climate in this country now of "send the immigrants back", and therefore you get more racist sh*t going on. It's not new, it's not just our problem but Britain has changed.

At least someone gets it. Well said.

 

[AlastairWatts]

[QUOTE...The increase in racism in football is directly related to the whipping up of racism and xenophobia in British society....[/QUOTE]

I have the uneasy feeling that you're just angling to get the Brexit debate involved in all of this. I think that's done for the time being...

 

[Guinness Boy]

Attempt to derail a thread about racism by linking to your views on membership of the EU.
I would imagine this flouts the board’s new rule on such matters.
[MENTION=6886]Bozza[/MENTION]
?

I'll give you two recent examples of what is not allowed any more, neither of which are this. Firstly putting a Diane Abbott joke in to a thread about football tactics. Secondly, constantly calling out someones "mental health" just because you disagree with them politically.

But here, there is a perfectly legitimate argument to make that the current political climate emboldens racism. As per my example with my family it seems to embolden them on public transport (we've also had recorded racist attacks on tubes and on trams shared on social media, leading to police action) and it's certainly not a stretch to say it emboldens them at football matches. [MENTION=14365]Thunder Bolt[/MENTION] has said there is police and court evidence linking the two things.

The level of discourse and behaviour in this country at the moment is, frankly, disgusting. Normal people have remained normal but those on the edges have become more and more extreme. It's timed exactly with Brexit and the referendum. Farage is a very clever man and knows that to get what you want, you divide and conquer. He's used race as a card (refugee poster during the referendum) so it's not "derailing" to link the two. It's an opinion that I find to be correct, with a whole heap of supporting evidence.

Incidentally "race" is political. In this day and age identity politics is as common as party politics.