[Football] Next team to suffer racist abuse at Spurs....

[Thunder Bolt]

But, a genuine question, was racism and homophobia reported in the good old days?

I would imagine that victims rarely did, witnesses couldn’t be bothered, and the police didn’t care.

It was because there was an added tariff on the sentencing for hate crime, which was one of the things I had to record as part of my job. I retired in 2014.

 

[Steve in Japan]

I thought Chris Wilder's response, when asked about this, was spot on. Essentially, supporters need to help police their own stadium and if they hear abuse, report it. What else would work?

I suspect this claim by Rudiger will be unsubstantiated unless supporters nearby heard it and back him up. As a sidenote, it would need to be more than one individual to be audible and visible from the pitch. There are 60,000+ people there, most of them making some sort of noise and many gesturing in an unfriendly way. Not because Rudiger is black but because he got their favourite player sent off.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

WTF are you on about? Im not trying to derail the thread, I'm giving my opinion about why there's more racism at fotball in the news and more hate crime in general. It is government policy to get immigration down and to take back control, and this suggests too many people are here. This has created a climate in this country now of "send the immigrants back", and therefore you get more racist sh*t going on. It's not new, it's not just our problem but Britain has changed.

You are right, but it makes uncomfortable reading for those who thought Brexit was a good idea.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I'll give you two recent examples of what is not allowed any more, neither of which are this. Firstly putting a Diane Abbott joke in to a thread about football tactics. Secondly, constantly calling out someones "mental health" just because you disagree with them politically.

But here, there is a perfectly legitimate argument to make that the current political climate emboldens racism. As per my example with my family it seems to embolden them on public transport (we've also had recorded racist attacks on tubes and on trams shared on social media, leading to police action) and it's certainly not a stretch to say it emboldens them at football matches. [MENTION=14365]Thunder Bolt[/MENTION] has said there is police and court evidence linking the two things.

The level of discourse and behaviour in this country at the moment is, frankly, disgusting. Normal people have remained normal but those on the edges have become more and more extreme. It's timed exactly with Brexit and the referendum. Farage is a very clever man and knows that to get what you want, you divide and conquer. He's used race as a card (refugee poster during the referendum) so it's not "derailing" to link the two. It's an opinion that I find to be correct, with a whole heap of supporting evidence.

Incidentally "race" is political. In this day and age identity politics is as common as party politics.

Firstly, I agree with your two examples of unacceptable behavior on a message board. I am glad these types of posts will no longer be allowed. The internet is too often used as a free for all for unpleasantness.
I can also see the distinction between these two and this thread. Perhaps what I am actually commenting on is the use of unsubstantiated opinion about one issue to make a political point about another; usually the EU. It seems incredibly distasteful to me when discussing abuse of footballers to seek to make this link, especially with no actual evidence. It is done to undermine people who take a different view on the political organization of Europe and to try to take some sort of moral superiority.
I would not dispute that there are case of people who have taken the result of the referendum as some sort of vindication of their latent racist attitudes. There will always be those people in society and there will be anecdotal evidence in the courts and elsewhere. You have neatly summed this up by referencing those at the margins who display such attitudes and contrasting with normal people who remain normal.However, the extent to which we extrapolate the numbers of such people relies on assumption and whether we wish to use it to rubbish our political opponents’ opinion. There is no evidence as to the EU views of any Spurs fans who may have been involved in the incident. That does not prevent many on the internet from immediately making the link and by implication, associating people who voted a certain way with racism. It would be like accusing every left winger of anti semitism, as if their philosophy alone is enough to convict, and making a thinly veiled accusation that anyone who voted for Corbyn is guilty of racism.
Perhaps all of this is merely a crime against taste and quality political debate rather than anything else. I had hoped that someone was going to put a stop to it but I understand the reasons why not. The internet is really just a safety valve for releasing anger rather than a platform for decent political debate. To be honest it is a lot easier to chat and disagree down the pub with people you actually know.

 

[Bakero]

Firstly, I agree with your two examples of unacceptable behavior on a message board. I am glad these types of posts will no longer be allowed. The internet is too often used as a free for all for unpleasantness.
I can also see the distinction between these two and this thread. Perhaps what I am actually commenting on is the use of unsubstantiated opinion about one issue to make a political point about another; usually the EU. It seems incredibly distasteful to me when discussing abuse of footballers to seek to make this link, especially with no actual evidence. It is done to undermine people who take a different view on the political organization of Europe and to try to take some sort of moral superiority.
I would not dispute that there are case of people who have taken the result of the referendum as some sort of vindication of their latent racist attitudes. There will always be those people in society and there will be anecdotal evidence in the courts and elsewhere. You have neatly summed this up by referencing those at the margins who display such attitudes and contrasting with normal people who remain normal.However, the extent to which we extrapolate the numbers of such people relies on assumption and whether we wish to use it to rubbish our political opponents’ opinion. There is no evidence as to the EU views of any Spurs fans who may have been involved in the incident. That does not prevent many on the internet from immediately making the link and by implication, associating people who voted a certain way with racism. It would be like accusing every left winger of anti semitism, as if their philosophy alone is enough to convict, and making a thinly veiled accusation that anyone who voted for Corbyn is guilty of racism.
Perhaps all of this is merely a crime against taste and quality political debate rather than anything else. I had hoped that someone was going to put a stop to it but I understand the reasons why not. The internet is really just a safety valve for releasing anger rather than a platform for decent political debate. To be honest it is a lot easier to chat and disagree down the pub with people you actually know.

Of course not everyone who voted leave is racist but I'd imagine most racists voted leave.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Of course not everyone who voted leave is racist but I'd imagine most racists voted leave.

I love the smell of a Venn diagram in the morning.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Of course not everyone who voted leave is racist but I'd imagine most racists voted leave.

We don’t make public policy basis the reactions of a section of people at the margins of society. Rather we should be looking for common ground amongst the mainstream (regardless of political view) rather than sniping at one another with fake news and misuse of statistics to undermine legitimately held opinion.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

We don’t make public policy basis the reactions of a section of people at the margins of society. Rather we should be looking for common ground amongst the mainstream (regardless of political view) rather than sniping at one another with fake news and misuse of statistics to undermine legitimately held opinion.

That's the equivalent of if I don't believe it, it's not happening.

 

[RossyG]

That's the equivalent of if I don't believe it, it's not happening.

As opposed to saying, “Racism is wrong and I don’t like Brexit so they must be linked.”

You could just as easily say that hate crimes have increased since Jeremy Corbyn became the Labour leader.

 

[RossyG]

The evidence is from the Ministry of Justice, via the police, CPS and the courts.

Actual evidence or were they just pushing an anti-Brexit agenda like a lot of the establishment?

I wouldn’t trust any of those institutions to be impartial.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Firstly, I agree with your two examples of unacceptable behavior on a message board. I am glad these types of posts will no longer be allowed. The internet is too often used as a free for all for unpleasantness.
I can also see the distinction between these two and this thread. Perhaps what I am actually commenting on is the use of unsubstantiated opinion about one issue to make a political point about another; usually the EU. It seems incredibly distasteful to me when discussing abuse of footballers to seek to make this link, especially with no actual evidence. It is done to undermine people who take a different view on the political organization of Europe and to try to take some sort of moral superiority.
I would not dispute that there are case of people who have taken the result of the referendum as some sort of vindication of their latent racist attitudes. There will always be those people in society and there will be anecdotal evidence in the courts and elsewhere. You have neatly summed this up by referencing those at the margins who display such attitudes and contrasting with normal people who remain normal.However, the extent to which we extrapolate the numbers of such people relies on assumption and whether we wish to use it to rubbish our political opponents’ opinion. There is no evidence as to the EU views of any Spurs fans who may have been involved in the incident. That does not prevent many on the internet from immediately making the link and by implication, associating people who voted a certain way with racism. It would be like accusing every left winger of anti semitism, as if their philosophy alone is enough to convict, and making a thinly veiled accusation that anyone who voted for Corbyn is guilty of racism.
Perhaps all of this is merely a crime against taste and quality political debate rather than anything else. I had hoped that someone was going to put a stop to it but I understand the reasons why not. The internet is really just a safety valve for releasing anger rather than a platform for decent political debate. To be honest it is a lot easier to chat and disagree down the pub with people you actually know.

My point was really that [MENTION=258]Pavilionaire[/MENTION] was perfectly entltled to posit the link on a thread about race, but not a thread about, say, cricket or Potter's tactics or restaurants. You are free to shoot it down. I respect both of your opinions. It would be nice to stick to a middle line. However, if you look at NSC it rather backs up [MENTION=17447]Bakero[/MENTION] 's comment that not all leavers are racists but all racists are leavers. There are quite a few good "leave" posters on the Brexit thread who I do not believe for a second are racists. There are two in particular who are. They are the ones who I would also expect now feel it's ok to get back to the bananas and monkey chants at games. For balance, the most extreme idiot on that thread with the longest ban so far was a remainer.

We don’t make public policy basis the reactions of a section of people at the margins of society. Rather we should be looking for common ground amongst the mainstream (regardless of political view) rather than sniping at one another with fake news and misuse of statistics to undermine legitimately held opinion.

I agree 100% with this though. Good post.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

That's the equivalent of if I don't believe it, it's not happening.

It really isn’t. I have accepted that it is happening at the margins of society. My point is that we do not look to those margins when making public policy. Your case that leaving the EU stirs up the margins can equally be made about remaining antagonizing those margins and creating dangerous resentment. Rather than either side engaging in such mud slinging surely it would be better if we united to reject extremism, however caused. If there was more respect shown to each other’s legitimately held views then there would be nothing for the extremists to hold on to. Instead there is constant implication that leaving the EU is a racist stance and opinion presented as fact. This thread is a good example, with people immediately assuming a link between the EU and vile behavior in a football ground. Every thread about racism is potentially hijacked and the impact on the actual victims is potentially diminished.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Actual evidence or were they just pushing an anti-Brexit agenda like a lot of the establishment?

I wouldn’t trust any of those institutions to be impartial.

Perhaps you should learn about those institutions. My ex colleagues are as split as the rest of the country, although as civil servants, they aren't allowed to say publicly what their views are.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

It really isn’t. I have accepted that it is happening at the margins of society. My point is that we do not look to those margins when making public policy. Your case that leaving the EU stirs up the margins can equally be made about remaining antagonizing those margins and creating dangerous resentment. Rather than either side engaging in such mud slinging surely it would be better if we united to reject extremism, however caused. If there was more respect shown to each other’s legitimately held views then there would be nothing for the extremists to hold on to. Instead there is constant implication that leaving the EU is a racist stance and opinion presented as fact. This thread is a good example, with people immediately assuming a link between the EU and vile behavior in a football ground. Every thread about racism is potentially hijacked and the impact on the actual victims is potentially diminished.

I have never said nor alluded to leaving the EU stirs up the margins. What I am saying is the actions of leading politicians and their advisors have created a new political attitude.
Farage with his 'country is full' picture, Theresa May as Home Office minister with her Hostile Environment and the destruction of the Windrush documents, and subsequent detentions, and deportations. Finally Johnson with his crass comments about piccanninies etc etc.
What was once considered unacceptable across society now has been given 'normality'.

 

[Sorrel]

Of course not everyone who voted leave is racist but I'd imagine most racists voted leave.

You could make exactly the same argument for football fans: not everyone who is a football fan is racist, but I would imagine most racists are football fans. The evidence of recent problems in this country and across Europe suggests it is true.

These days all authorities are united in tackling racism in football - unlike the 1980s, where it was considered an ancillary problem alongside and below the violence. Back then the government treated football fans as an unpleasant block of people they didn't want to engage with. But engagement with the fans was the key to the solution - just as it is now for those with opposing political viewpoints, providing people have the ability to see it.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

It really isn’t. I have accepted that it is happening at the margins of society. My point is that we do not look to those margins when making public policy. Your case that leaving the EU stirs up the margins can equally be made about remaining antagonizing those margins and creating dangerous resentment. Rather than either side engaging in such mud slinging surely it would be better if we united to reject extremism, however caused. If there was more respect shown to each other’s legitimately held views then there would be nothing for the extremists to hold on to. Instead there is constant implication that leaving the EU is a racist stance and opinion presented as fact. This thread is a good example, with people immediately assuming a link between the EU and vile behavior in a football ground. Every thread about racism is potentially hijacked and the impact on the actual victims is potentially diminished.

How does “dangerous resentment” manifest itself?

 

[dazzer6666]

I thought Chris Wilder's response, when asked about this, was spot on. Essentially, supporters need to help police their own stadium and if they hear abuse, report it. What else would work?

I suspect this claim by Rudiger will be unsubstantiated unless supporters nearby heard it and back him up. As a sidenote, it would need to be more than one individual to be audible and visible from the pitch. There are 60,000+ people there, most of them making some sort of noise and many gesturing in an unfriendly way. Not because Rudiger is black but because he got their favourite player sent off.

The usual suspects will accuse anyone doing so of 'screaming for a policeman' of course.......................

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

How does “dangerous resentment” manifest itself?

Anything from the rise of anti immigration sentiment in the Blair/Brown years to the murder of the MP may be linked to a dangerous separation between elements in society and the political establishment. It is just so difficult to quantify. I think actually that Germany is grappling with similar problems, particularly in the East. Societal problems of violence and discrimination exist everywhere and while the easy option may be to link it to one particular issue, it is actually impossible to do a controlled experiment to imagine another pathway and compare the results. Germany has issues with racism and yet is a strongly pro EU member state. That is about as good a comparison as we can get.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

Anything from the rise of anti immigration sentiment in the Blair/Brown years to the murder of the MP may be linked to a dangerous separation between elements in society and the political establishment. It is just so difficult to quantify. I think actually that Germany is grappling with similar problems, particularly in the East. Societal problems of violence and discrimination exist everywhere and while the easy option may be to link it to one particular issue, it is actually impossible to do a controlled experiment to imagine another pathway and compare the results. Germany has issues with racism and yet is a strongly pro EU member state. That is about as good a comparison as we can get.

Germany is strongly pro EU because they don't see the EU as purely trading, but more of a peace project. France & Germany have been at war for centuries, but now work together. Germany is now unified thanks to trade embargoes put on Russia which finally brought about Glasnost.
This is why our WW2 veterans in their 90s were so pro EU, because they viewed Europe in the same way.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Anything from the rise of anti immigration sentiment in the Blair/Brown years to the murder of the MP may be linked to a dangerous separation between elements in society and the political establishment. It is just so difficult to quantify. I think actually that Germany is grappling with similar problems, particularly in the East. Societal problems of violence and discrimination exist everywhere and while the easy option may be to link it to one particular issue, it is actually impossible to do a controlled experiment to imagine another pathway and compare the results. Germany has issues with racism and yet is a strongly pro EU member state. That is about as good a comparison as we can get.

You said Remainers are creating dangerous resentment in the U.K. This is what I was asking about.