[Politics] Next leader of the Labour party

[Chicken Run]

Wilson won in 1974 - and while Wilson wasn't a left-winger by any degree, the LP had a left manifesto that Wilson and then O'Callaghan abandoned in response to the economic depression of the 1970s - since then every single LP leader has been driving the LP to the right - to the point where you have the likes of Rachel Reeves saying 'We will be tougher than the Tories on benefits' - why vote for the monkey when the organ grinder will not try and fool you into believing that they are doing this in your interests. Blair got elected purely because the Tories got so mired in corruption that nobody could vote for them - to the point where the Tories lost 171 seats and had 30% of the vote. Yet while the Blairites back in the 1980s were losing votes to the Tories, left-wing candidates were repeatedly bucking the trend - what did the Blairites do - they expelled the biggest vote winners and neutered the rest by removing democracy from the LP.

A few weeks ago Corbyn got 32.4% of the vote - that is more than Milliband in 2015 - more than Brown in 2010 - more than Kinnock in 1987 - way more than Foot in 1983 - and not far off what Kinnock got in 1992 (after 12 years of Thatcherism and in the aftermath of the Poll Tax rebellion). Corbyn's 40% in 2017 was higher than any other LP leader since 1970 (and Wilson still lost) - with the exception of 1997 - and it was the same vote that Blair got in 2001. Yet Corbyn was the problem -

FOUR IN 50 years..... 3 of them with Tony.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Jolly read Giant insisting he's not left wing, and everyone else laughing at him.

Where have I ever claimed that Corbyn isn't left-wing?

Corbyn is the most left-wing leader of the LP since Keir Hardie in 1908. That does not mean that he didn't make mistakes since he became leader - and especially since the 2017 election. Corbyn had an opportunity to build a mass movement of opposition to neo-liberalism - instead he compromised with the Blaities and it cost LP the election and Corbyn his leadership.

Meanwhile Corbyn is still labour leader.

For another month - and who is leader is not crucial - it is what the leader does, and more, what the membership do in clearing out the Blairites and defending the policies promoted by Corbyn in 2017 and this year (with the exclusion of the daft position on Brexit).

This Tory government is not going to be a stable government - it will likely face a social upheaval because of the right-wing policies it will introduce - Johnson will also face a major (constitutional) crisis over Scottish independence and potentially will be responsible for a re-emergence of paramilitary violence in the North of Ireland (and the new LP leader will need to take note of the left activists who have the experience of dealing with both of these issues over the past 50 years).

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

FOUR IN 50 years..... 3 of them with Tony.

And including Blair the British working class has faced an unbroken 45 years of Tory policies - it really does pose the question of what the LP has been doing for the last 45 years in promoting right-wing policies.

 

[Chicken Run]

And including Blair the British working class has faced an unbroken 45 years of Tory policies - it really does pose the question of what the LP has been doing for the last 45 years in promoting right-wing policies.

Or in other words what they are doing wrong [emoji23][emoji23]

 

[Surf's Up]

Where have I ever claimed that Corbyn isn't left-wing?

Corbyn is the most left-wing leader of the LP since Keir Hardie in 1908. That does not mean that he didn't make mistakes since he became leader - and especially since the 2017 election. Corbyn had an opportunity to build a mass movement of opposition to neo-liberalism - instead he compromised with the Blaities and it cost LP the election and Corbyn his leadership.


For another month - and who is leader is not crucial - it is what the leader does, and more, what the membership do in clearing out the Blairites and defending the policies promoted by Corbyn in 2017 and this year (with the exclusion of the daft position on Brexit).

This Tory government is not going to be a stable government - it will likely face a social upheaval because of the right-wing policies it will introduce - Johnson will also face a major (constitutional) crisis over Scottish independence and potentially will be responsible for a re-emergence of paramilitary violence in the North of Ireland (and the new LP leader will need to take note of the left activists who have the experience of dealing with both of these issues over the past 50 years).

If you think that's the reason why Labour got trashed you're living in a complete fantasy world!!!

 

[Medwayseagull]

In my lifetime there have been 14 GE’s, of which the Labour Party have won FOUR of, 3 of them with Blair at the helm and one with Wilson, tells you all you need to know son, trust me with idiots like you close to the Labour Party it will continue, I’m promise you it’s you that’s bothered...

Get your facts right - Harold Wilson won three elections - 1964, 1966 and 1974 - so six in 55 years. A bit more balanced than your right wing rhetoric.

 

[Surf's Up]

Where have I ever claimed that Corbyn isn't left-wing?

Corbyn is the most left-wing leader of the LP since Keir Hardie in 1908. That does not mean that he didn't make mistakes since he became leader - and especially since the 2017 election. Corbyn had an opportunity to build a mass movement of opposition to neo-liberalism - instead he compromised with the Blaities and it cost LP the election and Corbyn his leadership.


For another month - and who is leader is not crucial - it is what the leader does, and more, what the membership do in clearing out the Blairites and defending the policies promoted by Corbyn in 2017 and this year (with the exclusion of the daft position on Brexit).

This Tory government is not going to be a stable government - it will likely face a social upheaval because of the right-wing policies it will introduce - Johnson will also face a major (constitutional) crisis over Scottish independence and potentially will be responsible for a re-emergence of paramilitary violence in the North of Ireland (and the new LP leader will need to take note of the left activists who have the experience of dealing with both of these issues over the past 50 years).

But I do agree with this.

 

[abc]

This Tory government is not going to be a stable government - it will likely face a social upheaval because of the right-wing policies it will introduce - Johnson will also face a major (constitutional) crisis over Scottish independence and potentially will be responsible for a re-emergence of paramilitary violence in the North of Ireland (and the new LP leader will need to take note of the left activists who have the experience of dealing with both of these issues over the past 50 years).

This sums up another issue with Labour under Corbyn - the constant 'everything is either a disaster now or its going to be soon'. No optimism in the country or its people. The Tory Gov is most likely to be exceptionally stable due to its large majority, there is no evidence of any potential 'social upheaval' (the biggest risk of that has gone now the referendum result is to be respected), no reason for a re emergence of sectarian violence in NI (unless the Irish themselves chose to F***k it up) and there is no constitutional crisis looming in Scotland (unless you close your ears to anyone bar Nicola Sturgeon).
If after 5 years you are proved right and I am proved wrong then fair enough. But in the meantime, if Labour want my vote back then they will have to, as a minimum requirement, stop being so bloody pessimistic and down on everybody and anyone that didn't vote for them this time around or who is clearly, like me, too thick and positive to see the world as they do.

 

[Hastings gull]

This sums up another issue with Labour under Corbyn - the constant 'everything is either a disaster now or its going to be soon'. No optimism in the country or its people. The Tory Gov is most likely to be exceptionally stable due to its large majority, there is no evidence of any potential 'social upheaval' (the biggest risk of that has gone now the referendum result is to be respected), no reason for a re emergence of sectarian violence in NI (unless the Irish themselves chose to F***k it up) and there is no constitutional crisis looming in Scotland (unless you close your ears to anyone bar Nicola Sturgeon).
If after 5 years you are proved right and I am proved wrong then fair enough. But in the meantime, if Labour want my vote back then they will have to, as a minimum requirement, stop being so bloody pessimistic and down on everybody and anyone that didn't vote for them this time around or who is clearly, like me, too thick and positive to see the world as they do.

Please stop posting such common sense on here .

 

[Chicken Run]

Get your facts right - Harold Wilson won three elections - 1964, 1966 and 1974 - so six in 55 years. A bit more balanced than your right wing rhetoric.

In my lifetime there have been 14 GE’s, of which the Labour Party have won FOUR of, 3 of them with Blair at the helm and one with Wilson, tells you all you need to know son, trust me with idiots like you close to the Labour Party it will continue, I’m promise you it’s you that’s bothered...

What part of my lifetime do you not understand, and they say us Tories are thick it is you sir who needs to get your facts straight [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]

 

[Hastings gull]

Get your facts right - Harold Wilson won three elections - 1964, 1966 and 1974 - so six in 55 years. A bit more balanced than your right wing rhetoric.

So what is his lifetime then?

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Where have I ever claimed that Corbyn isn't left-wing?

Corbyn is the most left-wing leader of the LP since Keir Hardie in 1908. That does not mean that he didn't make mistakes since he became leader - and especially since the 2017 election. Corbyn had an opportunity to build a mass movement of opposition to neo-liberalism - instead he compromised with the Blaities and it cost LP the election and Corbyn his leadership.


For another month - and who is leader is not crucial - it is what the leader does, and more, what the membership do in clearing out the Blairites and defending the policies promoted by Corbyn in 2017 and this year (with the exclusion of the daft position on Brexit).

This Tory government is not going to be a stable government - it will likely face a social upheaval because of the right-wing policies it will introduce - Johnson will also face a major (constitutional) crisis over Scottish independence and potentially will be responsible for a re-emergence of paramilitary violence in the North of Ireland (and the new LP leader will need to take note of the left activists who have the experience of dealing with both of these issues over the past 50 years).

Not Corbyn - you!

Anyway, as I'm a Blairite I look forward to being cleared out. Who do you suggest I give my vote to, given that you don't seem bothered about alienating former labour voters who would happily vote labour again if it could shed itself of the current sower of morons? Happy if I vote liberal?

 

[Hastings gull]

Where have I ever claimed that Corbyn isn't left-wing?

Corbyn is the most left-wing leader of the LP since Keir Hardie in 1908. That does not mean that he didn't make mistakes since he became leader - and especially since the 2017 election. Corbyn had an opportunity to build a mass movement of opposition to neo-liberalism - instead he compromised with the Blaities and it cost LP the election and Corbyn his leadership.


For another month - and who is leader is not crucial - it is what the leader does, and more, what the membership do in clearing out the Blairites and defending the policies promoted by Corbyn in 2017 and this year (with the exclusion of the daft position on Brexit).

This Tory government is not going to be a stable government - it will likely face a social upheaval because of the right-wing policies it will introduce - Johnson will also face a major (constitutional) crisis over Scottish independence and potentially will be responsible for a re-emergence of paramilitary violence in the North of Ireland (and the new LP leader will need to take note of the left activists who have the experience of dealing with both of these issues over the past 50 years).

those poor old Blairites again -they are real rotters. By the way, if you are a Blairite, then I strongly advise you to keep your heads down or else you are going to be . .erm . "cleared out." Didn't we hear such language 30 years ago behind the iron Curtain. you have been warned!

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

those poor old Blairites again -they are real rotters. By the way, if you are a Blairite, then I strongly advise you to keep your heads down or else you are going to be . .erm . "cleared out." Didn't we hear such language 30 years ago behind the iron Curtain. you have been warned!

The Blairites spent years undemocratically expelling left-wing activists from the LP - and over the past 4 years have undemocratically refused 170,000 applications for membership of the LP - when I say the Blairites need to be 'cleared out' I am not in favour of dumping the democratic processes within the LP as the Blairites did - I am talking about the democratic selection of LP candidates (local and national) by the LP membership.

Oh - and by the way - Boris Johnson expelled a pile of Tory MPs from the Tory party only a few weeks ago.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

This sums up another issue with Labour under Corbyn - the constant 'everything is either a disaster now or its going to be soon'. No optimism in the country or its people. The Tory Gov is most likely to be exceptionally stable due to its large majority, there is no evidence of any potential 'social upheaval' (the biggest risk of that has gone now the referendum result is to be respected), no reason for a re emergence of sectarian violence in NI (unless the Irish themselves chose to F***k it up) and there is no constitutional crisis looming in Scotland (unless you close your ears to anyone bar Nicola Sturgeon).

This has nothing to do with optimism or pessimism - it has to do with analysing the situation being face on a national and a global basis. Even the most conservative of economists are predicting an economic recession in the next 6-24 months based on the ongoing trade war between the USA and China - a bubble in stock prices in the USA and Germany - a rapidly growing debt burden in China - slowing growth in the US economy - a contracting German economy (where they are now planning on pumping €50billion of printed money into the economy to try and keep it afloat) - contracting UK GDP - a string of industrialised countries in the neo-colonial world in recession - and Brexit.

As regards the national question - the SNP will and are demanding a independence referendum - Johnson will refuse the referendum - the SNP have hyped this up so much that they will be under pressure to organise a plebiscite of their own (á la Catalonia) - and this will lead to a constitutional crisis. The situation in the North of Ireland is far more serious - the Tories have been the main bedrock of support for Unionists for more than 2 centuries - Johnson has now indicated that he will put a customs border along the Irish sea - this will provoke a massive reaction from the Protestant community in the North who will be whipped up into a frenzy by Unionist politicians - and if Johnson doesn't back down we will see the re-emergence of Loyalist paramilitaries engaging in open sectarian violence (which will provoke a backlash from dissident republicans who have only been waiting for the opportunity to re-ignite the 'war') in the expectation that it will force the British government to act.

The GFA did not solve any of the problems of Northern Ireland - it wasn't a solution. It was a temporary reprieve from the violence by institutionalising sectarianism into the 'peace process' - it will eventually breakdown unless sectarianism and the sectarian parties are undermined. The only way that will happen is through the emergence of an anti-sectarian party of labour that can unite working class Catholics and Protestants around a programme that represents their class interests. The election of Corbyn as leader held out a possibility of such a party developing - more than 4,500 people joined the LP in the North - but the Blairites blocked the LP from standing in the North's constituencies and Corbyn didn't fight them on it. Unless another formation emerges (and it could happen) then the likely outcome is a return to sectarian violence at some point - and that will be the direct responsibility of the British state (and to a lesser extent the Irish state) who have fostered sectarianism in the North for decades for its own interests.

If after 5 years you are proved right and I am proved wrong then fair enough. But in the meantime, if Labour want my vote back then they will have to, as a minimum requirement, stop being so bloody pessimistic and down on everybody and anyone that didn't vote for them this time around or who is clearly, like me, too thick and positive to see the world as they do.

I beg to point out that I have not been 'pessimistic' or 'down' on people who didn't vote for the LP this time (I am not a member of Momentum) - I have pointed out the reasons why working class people chose to abandon the LP and vote for 'get brexit done' - getting these people back into supporting the LP and getting more of those working class people who voted Tory and LD to support LP will be directly related to whether the LP can transform itself from a party of pale pink tory Blairites to a party of the working class putting forward policies that benefit working class people. I have an absolute confidence in the ability of the British working class (just as I have with the Irish working class) to draw the lessons of this period, to develop a class consciousness and to mobilise to defend the interests of working class people - whether that be through the LP or through the emergence of a new formation for working class people.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Not Corbyn - you!

So you are claiming that I insisted that I am not left-wing - where ?

I have clearly pointed out that I am a socialist who is fighting for the over throw of capitalism and the establishment of a democratically planned socialised society.

Anyway, as I'm a Blairite I look forward to being cleared out. Who do you suggest I give my vote to, given that you don't seem bothered about alienating former labour voters who would happily vote labour again if it could shed itself of the current sower of morons? Happy if I vote liberal?

You chose who you vote for - in my view there is no difference between voting for the Blairites, the Tories or the LDs - they are all neo-liberal hatchet politicians intent on privatising as much of the economy that they can get away with for the benefit of the big conglomerates who fund them to the hilt.

Your assumption that people will vote for the LP if it returns to the Blairism of 20 years ago - it will not happen - at a time of the most severe crisis since the 1930s the Blairites were getting less votes than Corbyn - the era of Blairism is over and any return of the Blairites in the LP will result in continuing Tory government - until they f*ck-up so badly that a donkey would get elected before them - at that stage the political landscape in Britain is likely to be quite different than it is now.

 

[Hampster Gull]

Not Corbyn - you!

Anyway, as I'm a Blairite I look forward to being cleared out. Who do you suggest I give my vote to, given that you don't seem bothered about alienating former labour voters who would happily vote labour again if it could shed itself of the current sower of morons? Happy if I vote liberal?

They’re ****ing clueless HWT

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

They’re ****ing clueless HWT

Their policies are massively popular though. All they need to do is bide their time, reminding the foolish electorate how they have been blinded by the biased media, and the successor of Corbyn will be swept to power, and the grateful ordinary working man and woman will rejoice.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Wilson won in 1974 - and while Wilson wasn't a left-winger by any degree, the LP had a left manifesto that Wilson and then O'Callaghan abandoned in response to the economic depression of the 1970s - since then every single LP leader has been driving the LP to the right - to the point where you have the likes of Rachel Reeves saying 'We will be tougher than the Tories on benefits' - why vote for the monkey when the organ grinder will not try and fool you into believing that they are doing this in your interests. Blair got elected purely because the Tories got so mired in corruption that nobody could vote for them - to the point where the Tories lost 171 seats and had 30% of the vote. Yet while the Blairites back in the 1980s were losing votes to the Tories, left-wing candidates were repeatedly bucking the trend - what did the Blairites do - they expelled the biggest vote winners and neutered the rest by removing democracy from the LP.

A few weeks ago Corbyn got 32.4% of the vote - that is more than Milliband in 2015 - more than Brown in 2010 - more than Kinnock in 1987 - way more than Foot in 1983 - and not far off what Kinnock got in 1992 (after 12 years of Thatcherism and in the aftermath of the Poll Tax rebellion). Corbyn's 40% in 2017 was higher than any other LP leader since 1970 (and Wilson still lost) - with the exception of 1997 - and it was the same vote that Blair got in 2001. Yet Corbyn was the problem -

I can see you would like to claim a former labour leader as a former Doncaster Rovers star (or possibly an ordinary member of the IRA) but, sadly, his name was just plain Callaghan

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

This has nothing to do with optimism or pessimism - it has to do with analysing the situation being face on a national and a global basis. Even the most conservative of economists are predicting an economic recession in the next 6-24 months based on the ongoing trade war between the USA and China - a bubble in stock prices in the USA and Germany - a rapidly growing debt burden in China - slowing growth in the US economy - a contracting German economy (where they are now planning on pumping €50billion of printed money into the economy to try and keep it afloat) - contracting UK GDP - a string of industrialised countries in the neo-colonial world in recession - and Brexit.

As regards the national question - the SNP will and are demanding a independence referendum - Johnson will refuse the referendum - the SNP have hyped this up so much that they will be under pressure to organise a plebiscite of their own (á la Catalonia) - and this will lead to a constitutional crisis. The situation in the North of Ireland is far more serious - the Tories have been the main bedrock of support for Unionists for more than 2 centuries - Johnson has now indicated that he will put a customs border along the Irish sea - this will provoke a massive reaction from the Protestant community in the North who will be whipped up into a frenzy by Unionist politicians - and if Johnson doesn't back down we will see the re-emergence of Loyalist paramilitaries engaging in open sectarian violence (which will provoke a backlash from dissident republicans who have only been waiting for the opportunity to re-ignite the 'war') in the expectation that it will force the British government to act.

The GFA did not solve any of the problems of Northern Ireland - it wasn't a solution. It was a temporary reprieve from the violence by institutionalising sectarianism into the 'peace process' - it will eventually breakdown unless sectarianism and the sectarian parties are undermined. The only way that will happen is through the emergence of an anti-sectarian party of labour that can unite working class Catholics and Protestants around a programme that represents their class interests. The election of Corbyn as leader held out a possibility of such a party developing - more than 4,500 people joined the LP in the North - but the Blairites blocked the LP from standing in the North's constituencies and Corbyn didn't fight them on it. Unless another formation emerges (and it could happen) then the likely outcome is a return to sectarian violence at some point - and that will be the direct responsibility of the British state (and to a lesser extent the Irish state) who have fostered sectarianism in the North for decades for its own interests.


I beg to point out that I have not been 'pessimistic' or 'down' on people who didn't vote for the LP this time (I am not a member of Momentum) - I have pointed out the reasons why working class people chose to abandon the LP and vote for 'get brexit done' - getting these people back into supporting the LP and getting more of those working class people who voted Tory and LD to support LP will be directly related to whether the LP can transform itself from a party of pale pink tory Blairites to a party of the working class putting forward policies that benefit working class people. I have an absolute confidence in the ability of the British working class (just as I have with the Irish working class) to draw the lessons of this period, to develop a class consciousness and to mobilise to defend the interests of working class people - whether that be through the LP or through the emergence of a new formation for working class people.

If I thought you weren't a dick I'd be offended.

I'm not offended.