[Politics] Next leader of the Labour party

[Thunder Bolt]

Labour has a problem because Cummings is unelected

I put Cumming and Milne in the same bracket of influence on either side of the house. They both have Russian connections and both have undue influence on their respective parties.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

If the working class do stay Tory, then we are going to see a massive realignment in the rest of the UK, with loads of southern seats moving away from the conservatives. It won't happen over night, of course, but never does the whole country stay united in politics, and if the working class are tory, a new liberal force will sweep the South in time

The Tories are going to move the boundaries so they get more votes. There is also talk of extending the fixed term government from 5 to 10 years.

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

And if my old mum had had a cock she'd be my dad.

Oh no she wouldn't, because your father would have met someone whom he could not perform the appropriate sexual act with, and who had the necessary physical equipment to give birth.

Ergo you would not exist, and all our lives would be the poorer!

 

[Hastings gull]

The Tories are going to move the boundaries so they get more votes. There is also talk of extending the fixed term government from 5 to 10 years.

Isn't there such a thing as the Boundaries Commission, or some such title, that actually recommends changes, as it has in the past?

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

I don't know, NE Derbyshire flipped in 2017 (first tory mp since 1935) and returned a 12,000 majority in 2019. Mansfield flipped in 2017 (first tory mp since 1885 - well forever actually) and returned a majority of 16,000 in 2019.

16000 tory majority in Mansfield! Think about that for a moment. That's not just 'lending' votes, that's realignment in action

Mansfield has changed quite significantly in social make-up over the decades and the constituency has been a three way seat since the early 1980s when the SPD split from the LP - local politics in Mansfield has been dominated by the Mansfield Independent Forum and this has had an impact in the general election as well in a way that hadn't happened in other constituencies. Currently 13 of the 36 councillors are from the MIF.

Alan Meale benefited from the Balirite surge in 1997 but his vote was rapidly declined after - 30K in 1997 - 21K in 2001 - 18K in 2005 - as a Blairite he was tainted with all the crap from the Blairites and was up to his eyeballs in corruption and cronyism. Meale only managed to stay ahead because of a large vote of the LDs and a high profile MIF independent in the constituency - he lost the seat in 2017 because the Tory, for the first time, had a clean run against him. It didn't help this time that the LP candidate Sonya Ward chopped and changed from being a Blairite to supporting Corbyn to get the nomination and is now heading back again (Momentum in Mansfield backed Ward rather than the 'official' Corbyn candidate) and they ran a poor pro-Remain campaign in the constituency - Ward claimed that those who voted Leave 'got it wrong' and that they 'didn't understand' - effectively telling LP supporters who voted Leave that they were stupid. It is no wonder the Tories romped home.

Situation is very similar in NE Derby - a three way constituency for decades and one with an arch-Blairite as MP who replaced a left-wing MP who was pushed out - and one of the most right-wing MPs in the LP until she lost in 2017. After 2017 she acted as a consultant for a fracking company and the Tories appointed her a tsar to push fracking in Britain - she accused anti-fracking campaigners of being 'hysterical' etc.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

The Tories are going to move the boundaries so they get more votes. There is also talk of extending the fixed term government from 5 to 10 years.

Where is this talk taking place ? It’s just that it’s the first I’ve heard of it.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Personally if the left and right wings of the Labour party cannot reconcile then we will end up moving to a one party state, something will have to give. Labour needs to really analyse what the labour voting but non party members want , not the 600k party members who are a drop in the ocean compared to the 14 million votes they need to get elected.

I also wonder what the voting persuasion would be of the 32% (roughly 16 million) who did not vote at all , my suspicion is that a large % are the poor who feel excluded. Someone really needs to do some work on this.

Personally I would prefer labour to swing back to the right, Blair might not be everyone's cup of team but he was better for the poor than the currently elected shower and the currently non electable left win.

 

[blue-shifted]

It hasn't actually - even in this election it was left-wing candidates who got some of the most significant votes for the LP - and this has been the tradition.

How many left wing candidates can you name who increased their vote share? Even if there are a few, we're basically talking about different degrees of wipe out. And it's not about individual constituencies. The party lost nationally because (sadly for you and me) not enough people trust socialist leaders or finds socialism desirable

 

[blue-shifted]

Tory policies are tory policies - whether implemented by the Tories or the Blairites - you fight for socialist policies and demonstrate that these policies are needed to protect the interests of working class people.
.

Complete re-write of history. show me a Tory leader who has increased public sector spending, like Blair did, plus all the fox hunting, LGBT rights etc etc etc that new labour did. Tories wouldn't do that stuff in a million years

New Labour were miles away from the Tory government. I voted Corbyn in, but I'd give my left ball for a Blair government now.

Like I was saying, it's not everything I want, but it's part of it, and it's a world away from what we have and what is coming.

 

[Bulldog]

General election results for Labour over the last 40 years:

Defeat - Callaghan
Defeat - Foot
Defeat - Kinnock
Defeat - Kinnock
Win - Blair
Win - Blair
Win - Blair
Defeat - Brown
Defeat - Miliband
Defeat - Corbyn
Defeat - Corbyn

Spot the pattern.

 

[Gwylan]

, LGBT rights etc etc etc that new labour did. Tories wouldn't do that stuff in a million years

Er... the Conservatives legalised gay marriage

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

Labour has a problem because Cummings is unelected


Momentum's membership is 40K out of a LP membership in excess of 500K - and that 40K is mostly internet based - very few people turn up to Momentum meetings and when left-wing activists join or turn up Lansman expels them from Momentum. It has very little influence in the LP and a lot less than people suspect.


Labour has already been out of power for the best part of a decade - and that had nothing to do with Corbyn - indeed since 1979 Labour has been in power for 15 out of the 40 years - most of the rest of the time it was led by Kinnock and the rest of the line that ended with Blair, Brown and Milliband. Corbyn got more votes in both elections he led the LP, than Blair, Brown and Milliband over the three previous general elections.



Labour has a problem because Cummings is unelected


Momentum's membership is 40K out of a LP membership in excess of 500K - and that 40K is mostly internet based - very few people turn up to Momentum meetings and when left-wing activists join or turn up Lansman expels them from Momentum. It has very little influence in the LP and a lot less than people suspect.


And he was an idiot for doing it - particularly given that he was opposed to the EU his entire political career - another example of trying to appease the Blairites


1. Home ownership dropped significantly from 2010-2017
2. What about the almost 40% of the population who aren't homeowners in Britain?

Are you really saying that Corbyn wasn’t a factor in labour’s disastrous defeat?
You’re missing the overall, Blair won THREE elections, even after Iraq, because he was far more in tune with what people wanted than Corbyn ever was. He lost catastrophically and has now condemned Labour to years and years of opposition, and, much, much worse, millions of people will now remain in poverty.
And he still hasn’t resigned. An absolute disgrace.

 

[Guinness Boy]

1. Home ownership dropped significantly from 2010-2017
2. What about the almost 40% of the population who aren't homeowners in Britain?

You’ve completely missed the point. I didn’t mention anything about the size of home ownership. The point is that one policy allows interest rates to control other elements of the economy under the control of someone who knows what they’re doing with the pleasing side effect that people who have sacrificed a lot to get on the property ladder don’t immediately lose said property.

However, high interest rates would inevitably be passed on to non home owners. Imagine the current rent crisis with interest rates at 1992 levels

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[blue-shifted]

You are taking the wrong approach - you cannot unite the left in the LP with the Blairites - Corbyn tried and the election demonstrated it is a disaster to try. The Blairites will consciously try and sabotage any left wing leader and any left-wing policies - as demonstrated by Blairite after Blairite who called on LP voters not to vote for Labour - including Blair himself who told LP voters to vote 'tactically' to stop Corbyn winning (and then attacked Corbyn for losing the election).

So you don't think there's any point making any effort at all to find common ground? Put whatever has been said in the past and try to work together to beat the Tories as a unified force?

Because if you don't think that then the only alternative is wiping them out. Decent MP's, blokes like Peter Kyle. How long is that going to take? Is is going to be quick and easy? No. If you go down that route it will be a bloodbath (in political terms). All the while playing into the hands of the Tories and the gleeful press barons.

You can unite the left and centre (stopping calling them blairites will be a start). Accord can be reached if both sides genuinely listen to the concerns of the other and if subjugation of one side to the other is genuinely off the table. My advice to you. Lose the history lessons, stop the labelling and focus on the true enemy. Policy-wise there's not huge differences between the left and centre in the scheme of things. If there was a genuine meeting in the middle on policy, neither the left or centre would find it too bad. And my guess is the electorate as a whole would find the policy menu and party much more attractive

 

[blue-shifted]

Er... the Conservatives legalised gay marriage

My bad. Cameron, (and Clegg I believe). Sadly those moderating voices are long gone, so my point that new labour are a long way from what is coming, I hope holds. I can't see Priti Patel implemented much progressive domestic social policy

 

[Lower West Stander]

I’ve mentioned it on other threads, but there are people who genuinely think Maduro is doing a great job in Venezuela.

While people with those views continue to exist, you’re never going to get the likes of JRG to concede anything.....


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[BensGrandad]

Does it really matter who the next Labour leader and leader of the opposition is as it is always said you need a strong opposition to make the government toe the line. That doesn't apply in this case as Boris has such a big majority that he will do what he wants, when he wants and how he wants.

 

[Sirnormangall]

You are taking the wrong approach - you cannot unite the left in the LP with the Blairites - Corbyn tried and the election demonstrated it is a disaster to try. The Blairites will consciously try and sabotage any left wing leader and any left-wing policies - as demonstrated by Blairite after Blairite who called on LP voters not to vote for Labour - including Blair himself who told LP voters to vote 'tactically' to stop Corbyn winning (and then attacked Corbyn for losing the election).

I think you’re probably right. Maybe the answer is to split into two parties: one called the Labour Party and the other could be called Momentum?

 

[Guinness Boy]

I think you’re probably right. Maybe the answer is to split into two parties: one called the Labour Party and the other could be called Momentum?

As far as everyone else in the country, bar a minute subset of activists, is concerned that’s already the situation.


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[drew]

Complete re-write of history. show me a Tory leader who has increased public sector spending, like Blair did, plus all the fox hunting, LGBT rights etc etc etc that new labour did. Tories wouldn't do that stuff in a million years

New Labour were miles away from the Tory government. I voted Corbyn in, but I'd give my left ball for a Blair government now.

Like I was saying, it's not everything I want, but it's part of it, and it's a world away from what we have and what is coming.

This. JRG is a buffoon who can't see what is staring him in the face (same attitude on the Hughton thread).

Doesn't matter what your policies/ideals are, you can't implement them when you're not in power! Blair realized that it and took the moderate approach.