[Politics] Next leader of the Labour party

[BLOCK F]

I agree with your point. So how do the tories get away with it?

I'll first comment that under Blair the unions were kept at arms length from the control of the labour party to a much greater extent than before or now (although now the issue is more the reduced voting power of the MPs versus members in leadership elections rather than union tumescence). I can remember when the union block vote effectively monopolised the labour leader election and the leader was chosen by a red-faced shouty cabal of the likes of (from memory, apols for spelling) McLusky, Scargill, Feather, Jones, Scanlon. That was never going to appeal to the swing voter.

And I say that as a lifelong trade union member as well as labour voter. What Blair did was make it OK to be middle class and a labour voter, and put an end to, for example, some of my own colleages sneering at me for aligning myself with the 'hoary handed sons of toil'.

If momentum continues to control the labour party I can see moves to shift power further away from the MPs and more into the hands of the unions (albeit they may feel that it suits them better to increase the voting weight of the Ordinary Membership, given its current voting predilections).

OK, you could defend this by saying that if unions bankroll the labour party then they should have the major say. Well, what is good for the labour goose is good for the tory ganders and their choice of backers, shirly?

Personally, I would like to see the unions make a collective decision to stay out of selection of the leader of the party altogether. After all, **** me, I am a season ticket holder at BHA and I don't expect to have a say in the appointment of the BHA manager, FFS (albeit, if offered a slice of the franchise, my first instinct would be to sa 'I'm in' - ego innit). The trouble with the unions is they don't know what is in their best interest (in terms of obtaining a government that operates more in their favour).

Anyway this is kind of irrelevant since the group with the biggest say in electing the leader these days is, as noted, the 'ordinary member'. This is perhaps as it should be, albeit the party should be much more careful how it elects ordinary members. In my professional organization you need to be nominated by two current members of good standing, and if you break the rules, you're out. Meanwhile in the labour party we have untold carpetbaggers (tories who have joined to cause mayhem) with evidently useless scrutiny, plus untold numbers of others whose more hairy-arsed attitudes to issues such as 'Israel' (actually Jews) go unchecked and unchallenged (till it is too late).

I'm not saying that the tories are by contrast pristine (they clearly aren't, as the post to which I reply clearly illustrates). But in the great game of attracting votes, the mug with the biggest and most recognisable 'kick me' sign on their back is the one that gets booted most hard up the jacksy. Right now that is labour.

Are there really a significant number of Tory carpetbaggers signed up to the Labour party? Blimey, I can think of plenty of ways I'd rather spend £3.
Why don't the Labour moderates spend their £3 and join up in droves, or am I missing something?

 

[Behind Enemy Lines]

It's always said that a week is a long time in politics.

We are talking about 5 years here. If Boris and co make a mess of things AND Labour get it right And lots of other ifs, you never know.

True, a lot can change. Maybe Brexit will be a total disaster which will crash the economy. But look what Labour did with the Brexit mess and a decade of austerity...

I think the numbers still make it incredibly difficult for Labour to win next time. Scotland, once a bed rock of Labour support, has gone. So we're talking about Labour winning the vast majority of the 135 odd seats it needs in England, a self interested, conservative country comprised of a sea of blue.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Perhaps I wasn't clear, they don't "make" policy. They come up with new policy ideas and campaign for them. It's Labour party members who make policy at annual conference, Momentum is less than 10 per cent of Labour's membership, if their ideas get adopted it's because the other 90% haven't come up with anything better - and when you think about ideas from the Labour "moderates" (as if the Iraq war was moderate), there aren't any. Except the second referendum and that went well

LOL. A loyal Labour voter who seems to have forgotten all the achievements from the first Blair government, including handing interest rate control to the Bank of England - a policy that persists today and made the last 11 years or so just about liveable for working class homeowners.

As for the second referendum its biggest cheerleader was McDonnell. I’m not sure I would consider him moderate


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Those will always be popular policies in surveys. Before EACH general election, I recall similar positive polling for:
Spend far more on the NHS.
Labour most trusted with the NHS.
Spend far more on policing.
Spend far more on education.
Should university be ‘free’.
‘Free’ prescriptions for all.
‘Free’ NHS dentisty’.
More nurses and doctors.
Lower rail fares.

Plus of course, a 4 day week and writing off all student loans would be vote winners.

But, then swing voters in media interviews question the affordability of it all, and Labour poll as far less trusted on the economy.

It’s not as simple as saying each item on the shopping list was popular.

This demonstrates that left-wing policies are popular - and it was also demonstrated with the surge to LP in the immediate run-up to the 2017 election.

What happened in 2019 - Corbyn abandoned his support for Leave in an effort to appease the Blairites - making him seem like every other politician that would swing their views to suit a prevailing mood - coupled with Corbyn failing to take action against Blairite councils imposing cuts and a massive smear campaign against Corbyn (and it should be noted - the media in the US are now using exactly the same smears against Sanders in the US presidential campaign - including claiming that he supports anti-Semitism - Sanders is Jewish).

A majority of people support these policies - but to get elected you have to prove that you can be trusted to implement them - Corbyn didn't do that.

The problem is that this vision of how the country should be has just been comprehensively rejected, as it has been time and time again.

It hasn't actually - even in this election it was left-wing candidates who got some of the most significant votes for the LP - and this has been the tradition.

Even go back to Kinnock - while he was losing election after election to Thatcher - left-wing MPs like Eric Heffer, Terry Fields, Pat Wall, Eddie Loyden, Bob Parry, Bob Wareing, Dave Nellist were getting swings to the LP that if replicated around Britain would have seen the LP win a 100 seat majority - what did Kinnock do - he expelled the left-wing MPs that were showing how to win significant votes.

You’ve got to look at the choices which are on the menu. Blairism isn’t as desirable as socialism, but it’s a million miles better than being led by a strongly right wing Tory PM.

Tory policies are tory policies - whether implemented by the Tories or the Blairites - you fight for socialist policies and demonstrate that these policies are needed to protect the interests of working class people.

If you could show me a socialist candidate who can unite the party and who you think could realistically win an election and actually put those beliefs into practice, I’ll happily get on board with you. But you can’t. Time for pragmatism.

You are taking the wrong approach - you cannot unite the left in the LP with the Blairites - Corbyn tried and the election demonstrated it is a disaster to try. The Blairites will consciously try and sabotage any left wing leader and any left-wing policies - as demonstrated by Blairite after Blairite who called on LP voters not to vote for Labour - including Blair himself who told LP voters to vote 'tactically' to stop Corbyn winning (and then attacked Corbyn for losing the election).

 

[Dr Bandler]

Are there really a significant number of Tory carpetbaggers signed up to the Labour party? Blimey, I can think of plenty of ways I'd rather spend £3.
Why don't the Labour moderates spend their £3 and join up in droves, or am I missing something?

Yes, i know a couple who joined and vote for Corbyn to give the Tories an advantage.

 

[London Irish]

LOL. A loyal Labour voter who seems to have forgotten all the achievements from the first Blair government, including handing interest rate control to the Bank of England - a policy that persists today and made the last 11 years or so just about liveable for working class homeowners.

As for the second referendum its biggest cheerleader was McDonnell. I’m not sure I would consider him moderate


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Yes, there is no housing crisis in Britain now thanks to the working class policy of central bank independence. Three cheers all round!

And McDonnell was bounced into like Corbyn, because they wanted to maintain party unity, no other reason. They got it wrong but the responsibility remains with the liars who said Johnson's hard Brexit could be stopped without winning over a substantial minority of Leave voters. It wasn't a lie put on a bus, but it has caused as much damage as that one.

 

[Guinness Boy]

Yes, there is no housing crisis in Britain now thanks to the working class policy of central bank independence. Three cheers all round!

And McDonnell was bounced into like Corbyn, because they wanted to maintain party unity, no other reason. They got it wrong but the responsibility remains with the liars who said Johnson's hard Brexit could be stopped without winning over a substantial minority of Leave voters. It wasn't a lie put on a bus, but it has caused as much damage as that one.

**** me you are funny, but not in a good way. Are you suggesting the BoE’s ability to regulate an economic downturn using interest rates is a BAD thing? Or that the answer to a housing crisis is higher levels of repossession and homelessness?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

True, a lot can change. Maybe Brexit will be a total disaster which will crash the economy. But look what Labour did with the Brexit mess and a decade of austerity...

I think the numbers still make it incredibly difficult for Labour to win next time. Scotland, once a bed rock of Labour support, has gone. So we're talking about Labour winning the vast majority of the 135 odd seats it needs in England, a self interested, conservative country comprised of a sea of blue.

If the working class do stay Tory, then we are going to see a massive realignment in the rest of the UK, with loads of southern seats moving away from the conservatives. It won't happen over night, of course, but never does the whole country stay united in politics, and if the working class are tory, a new liberal force will sweep the South in time

 

[JC Footy Genius]

How's the post mortem coming along .... established a cause of death yet?

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

This is a problem in the Labour party.

Seamus Milne - Dominic Cummings - both unelected but have too much say.

Labour has a problem because Cummings is unelected

Except, according to [MENTION=1483]London Irish[/MENTION] it is Momentum’s job to make policy. You can see why people are confused about their role and have the impression that Labour isn’t aligned.

Momentum's membership is 40K out of a LP membership in excess of 500K - and that 40K is mostly internet based - very few people turn up to Momentum meetings and when left-wing activists join or turn up Lansman expels them from Momentum. It has very little influence in the LP and a lot less than people suspect.

For Labour, the next election is already lost. Jeremy Corbyn's legacy to the party is it will be out of power for the best part of a decade. Labour must elect someone who can lead them to become a party which presents as an alternative government, rather than a party of protest which its become. Otherwise, they could be finished.

Labour has already been out of power for the best part of a decade - and that had nothing to do with Corbyn - indeed since 1979 Labour has been in power for 15 out of the 40 years - most of the rest of the time it was led by Kinnock and the rest of the line that ended with Blair, Brown and Milliband. Corbyn got more votes in both elections he led the LP, than Blair, Brown and Milliband over the three previous general elections.

This is a problem in the Labour party.

Seamus Milne - Dominic Cummings - both unelected but have too much say.

Labour has a problem because Cummings is unelected

Except, according to [MENTION=1483]London Irish[/MENTION] it is Momentum’s job to make policy. You can see why people are confused about their role and have the impression that Labour isn’t aligned.

Momentum's membership is 40K out of a LP membership in excess of 500K - and that 40K is mostly internet based - very few people turn up to Momentum meetings and when left-wing activists join or turn up Lansman expels them from Momentum. It has very little influence in the LP and a lot less than people suspect.

As for the second referendum its biggest cheerleader was McDonnell. I’m not sure I would consider him moderate

And he was an idiot for doing it - particularly given that he was opposed to the EU his entire political career - another example of trying to appease the Blairites

A loyal Labour voter who seems to have forgotten all the achievements from the first Blair government, including handing interest rate control to the Bank of England - a policy that persists today and made the last 11 years or so just about liveable for working class homeowners.

1. Home ownership dropped significantly from 2010-2017
2. What about the almost 40% of the population who aren't homeowners in Britain?

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

If the working class do stay Tory, then we are going to see a massive realignment in the rest of the UK, with loads of southern seats moving away from the conservatives. It won't happen over night, of course, but never does the whole country stay united in politics, and if the working class are tory, a new liberal force will sweep the South in time

The Tories have already begun their attacks on working class people - yesterday the DWP was given the authority to instruct doctors not to sign unable to work certs for disabled people that the DWP have found 'fit for work'.

These attacks will intensify - the global economy is facing a significant downturn in the next 6-24 months - and the Tories will hammer working class people when it happens. Effectively working class people lent their vote to Johnson to 'get brexit done' - and for no other reason.

 

[Jolly Red Giant]

Why don't the Labour moderates spend their £3 and join up in droves, or am I missing something?

The Blairites introduced the £3 membership as a mechanism to undermine democracy in the LP - and it blew up spectacularly in their face when Corbyn was elected leader - the then Blairite controlled NEC increased the membership fee to £25 - but this had practically zero impact in reducing the numbers joining the LP to support Corbyn - the Blairites then resorted to kicking people out of the LP or stopping them joining in the first place (170,000 of them).

And to answer your question - the Blairites have very little support on the ground - the LP is a vehicle for to further their political careers.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

The Tories have already begun their attacks on working class people - yesterday the DWP was given the authority to instruct doctors not to sign unable to work certs for disabled people that the DWP have found 'fit for work'.

These attacks will intensify - the global economy is facing a significant downturn in the next 6-24 months - and the Tories will hammer working class people when it happens. Effectively working class people lent their vote to Johnson to 'get brexit done' - and for no other reason.

I don't know, NE Derbyshire flipped in 2017 (first tory mp since 1935) and returned a 12,000 majority in 2019. Mansfield flipped in 2017 (first tory mp since 1885 - well forever actually) and returned a majority of 16,000 in 2019.

16000 tory majority in Mansfield! Think about that for a moment. That's not just 'lending' votes, that's realignment in action

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

If the working class do stay Tory, then we are going to see a massive realignment in the rest of the UK, with loads of southern seats moving away from the conservatives. It won't happen over night, of course, but never does the whole country stay united in politics, and if the working class are tory, a new liberal force will sweep the South in time

There isn’t any actual evidence for that. You are forgetting the silent majority who don’t do twitter, don’t talk to pollsters, get on quietly with their lives and always vote Tory. Regardless of the noise generated in London there is no chance of the sea of rural seats of towns and villages turning liberal. Anyone who lives in such a seat (eg myself) will tell you that. The unifying factor around here is a suspicion of flashy Londoners (oh and leaving the EU !).

 

[JC Footy Genius]

The Tories have already begun their attacks on working class people - yesterday the DWP was given the authority to instruct doctors not to sign unable to work certs for disabled people that the DWP have found 'fit for work'.

These attacks will intensify - the global economy is facing a significant downturn in the next 6-24 months - and the Tories will hammer working class people when it happens. Effectively working class people lent their vote to Johnson to 'get brexit done' - and for no other reason.

*sigh* The Tories will be doing all they can to keep the new blue wall seats, 'hammering the working classes' makes no electoral sense.

The working classes who voted for Brexit did punish Labour for reneging on their 2017 manifesto promise to enact Brexit but they also found Corbyn an unpalatable choice for PM for entirely understandable reasons.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

*sigh* The Tories will be doing all they can to keep the new blue wall seats, 'hammering the working classes' makes no electoral sense.

The working classes who voted for Brexit did punish Labour for reneging on their 2017 manifesto promise to enact Brexit but they also found Corbyn an unpalatable choice for PM for entirely understandable reasons.

Now that Brexit is over* and the election is over I am inclined to unblock you for a bit to see if you have anything of actual value to add to the conversation, other than propaganda and playground petty abuse when you've been out argued (never argue motive, btw - it is the last refuge of the defeated).

Good start, and worth a thumbs up.

*Oh ****, it hasn't even started. My bad

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Are there really a significant number of Tory carpetbaggers signed up to the Labour party? Blimey, I can think of plenty of ways I'd rather spend £3.
Why don't the Labour moderates spend their £3 and join up in droves, or am I missing something?

Answer to first part: yes (but it is now more than £3 as far as I am aware). There were dozens on NSC boasting about doing it a few years ago.

Answer to the second part: good point. I will try to rejoin later.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Now that Brexit is over* and the election is over I am inclined to unblock you for a bit to see if you have anything of actual value to add to the conversation, other than propaganda and playground petty abuse when you've been out argued (never argue motive, btw - it is the last refuge of the defeated).

Good start, and worth a thumbs up.

*Oh ****, it hasn't even started. My bad

It's that special time of year HWt ..

Merry Christmas

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

The Blairites introduced the £3 membership as a mechanism to undermine democracy in the LP - and it blew up spectacularly in their face when Corbyn was elected leader - the then Blairite controlled NEC increased the membership fee to £25 - but this had practically zero impact in reducing the numbers joining the LP to support Corbyn - the Blairites then resorted to kicking people out of the LP or stopping them joining in the first place (170,000 of them).

And to answer your question - the Blairites have very little support on the ground - the LP is a vehicle for to further their political careers.

I won't argue with the first points but object to your spin. First, what ground? The ground under the feet of your momentum-led membership, or the ground under the feet of the swing voters needed to win a GE?

Second, don't argue motive. I will argue motive back - you are only denigrating Blairites because it suits your narrative. And you can say 'you are only saying that because....' How about the blairites kicked out a load of carpetbaggers and other folk ineligible to be members because they were turning the party into a joke?

Not defending Blairites, btw. It was their loss of focus after the Brown coup that let Corbyn (a carreer backbencher, disloyal to the party, and general duffer) in.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

It's that special time of year HWt ..

Merry Christmas

Merry Christmas to you too.

Nice hat, btw.