[Politics] Next leader of the Labour party

[Cirina]

To a point but I don't agree that the system is invincible. I was chatting about this with my daughter earlier today. We remarked that the American political establishment is trying very hard to suppress Alexandra Ocasio-Cortez. She is very hard to pin down, as she has the support of a politically engaged youth, she has the measure of social media and is too young to have any skeletons in her closet. I can't see where anybody like that will emerge from the Labour ranks but I'm hopeful that somebody will do so in the not too distant future.

In a way I agree with you about the youth side of things. Though it kinda creates a divide between the youth and the older generation who are more likely to vote Conservative. Just say for arguments sake a young leader does emerge and gets people driven. The papers and news will find ways to smear that particular person to the point of a loss of a leader. I think this election was down to "getting brexit done" or the fact that people hated Corbyn so much they voted for the Conservatives out of spite. Now I'm no politician but it just seems like the next election will also be a forgone result with the amount of control they have with media in general. I spent enough time trying to support for long enough. Only to be told we have been pretty much decimated. We really didn't have a chance at all. With that I am going to step away and avoid the subject as a whole. It's a depressing and quite honestly quite a raw feeling still.

 

[lawros left foot]

Personally, I’m on the more left side of the party, not as far to the left as Momentum, but, further to the left than the Blairites.

Amongst the problems we have at the moment is, I heard on the news last night, a Scunthorpe man, ex Labour say, and I paraphrase. “ The town is dead, shops shutting down, firms going bust, I wanted a change, so, I’m voting Tory”

On twitter, so I cannot vouch for the veracity, a woman who’s Asian friend had phoned her in tears because her next door neighbour had knocked on her door and told her that he was glad that he wouldn’t have to live next door to her anymore, now Boris had been elected.
This is the ignorance we’re up against.

 

[BenGarfield]

However much left wing Labour supporters may want it - Corbyn & Momentum's marxists policies are simply unelectable in modern Britain.

The only Labour prime minister that the country have elected in modern times was Tony Blair and his version of socialism was moderate and centrist.

I often wonder that if Labour had elected David Miliband instead of his brother Ed, we might be in a very different place now but I guess we will never know.

I dont accept your conception of where the political centre lies, Blair wasnt "centre", he was n`t any version of socialism, he was actually right wing, he praised and approved of Thatcher. There is a party already in existence called the liberal democrats which adheres to policies like Blairs - why dont the people who advocate such policies join the liberal democrats, then stand for election for this party. If you`re right about most people wanting to vote for these sort of policies then the liberal democrats will win. Why not leave the labour party to real socialists. Are democratic socialists not allowed to have a political party?

 

[BenGarfield]

This political illiteracy that Corbyn’s policies are/ were Marxist, or “extreme”, really needs to stop.

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I know its like banging your head against a brick wall. Noam Chomsky was right in his book manufacturing consent describing the corporate media, to whom a lot of the people who contribute to this board are influenced by, "are effective and powerful ideological institutions that carry out a system-supportive propaganda function, by reliance on market forces, internalized assumptions, and self-censorship, and without overt coercion", by means of the propaganda model of communication.["

 

[JC Footy Genius]

I feel I'm intruding at a wake but can I remind people talking up the right wing/biased media as an excuse, that the Corbyn led Labour party reeled in a 20+ point opinion poll lead down to 2 points during the 2017 general election campaign denying the Tories a majority. What was different this time?

A couple of items I noticed.

Instead of promising to enact the referendum result they promised a second referendum.

Instead of introducing a vaguely costed manifesto with a few populist policies they promised the moon and the stars all funded by someone else.

 

[WilburySeagull]

I dont accept your conception of where the political centre lies, Blair wasnt "centre", he was n`t any version of socialism, he was actually right wing, he praised and approved of Thatcher. There is a party already in existence called the liberal democrats which adheres to policies like Blairs - why dont the people who advocate such policies join the liberal democrats, then stand for election for this party. If you`re right about most people wanting to vote for these sort of policies then the liberal democrats will win. Why not leave the labour party to real socialists. Are democratic socialists not allowed to have a political party?

You view wouldbe fine if we had a voting system that reflected properly the % votes for parties. While we have fptp parties have to be broad churches to win. A labour party excluding its right wing cannot win under present rules. Taking a non labour example the lib dems got 4% more than 2107 but one less seat.

 

[Pavilionaire]

I don't see Labour winning a majority any time soon, regardless of which individual is leader. They have the right wing print media to contend with, then there are the unions and all the infighting that goes with that. Too much baggage.

The only way to fight the Tories and their machine is to create a single alternative merged party with the Lib Dems - a UK 'Democrat' Party if you will.

Their combined vote on Thursday was 45%, and that was with two unpopular leaders in charge, yet 45% would usually be enough to win a General Election.

If that party presented their leading lights on shows like Question Time as Starmer, Umunna, Lammy, Rayner, Layla Moran, Benn, Phillips, Kyle, Davey then I think they would get traction very quickly.

Creating a brand new party is nigh on impossible but merging two machines into one is straightforward enough, and at a stroke you dump the baggage of the past - Corbyn, unions, Blair, Clegg, tuition fees, anti-semitism = gone overnight.

 

[Hastings gull]

I know its like banging your head against a brick wall. Noam Chomsky was right in his book manufacturing consent describing the corporate media, to whom a lot of the people who contribute to this board are influenced by, "are effective and powerful ideological institutions that carry out a system-supportive propaganda function, by reliance on market forces, internalized assumptions, and self-censorship, and without overt coercion", by means of the propaganda model of communication.["

Christ -next time I look at a paper of which you disapprove, I will have to think about internalised assumptions -is that on the health page?

 

[Hastings gull]

I don't see Labour winning a majority any time soon, regardless of which individual is leader. They have the right wing print media to contend with, then there are the unions and all the infighting that goes with that. Too much baggage.

The only way to fight the Tories and their machine is to create a single alternative merged party with the Lib Dems - a UK 'Democrat' Party if you will.

Their combined vote on Thursday was 45%, and that was with two unpopular leaders in charge, yet 45% would usually be enough to win a General Election.

If that party presented their leading lights on shows like Question Time as Starmer, Umunna, Lammy, Rayner, Layla Moran, Benn, Phillips, Kyle, Davey then I think they would get traction very quickly.

Creating a brand new party is nigh on impossible but merging two machines into one is straightforward enough, and at a stroke you dump the baggage of the past - Corbyn, unions, Blair, Clegg, tuition fees, anti-semitism = gone overnight.

Yet last time round, the lefities on here were saying how well JC had done -now they have been justifiably hammered at the polls, it is all the fault of the press.

 

[BenGarfield]

Christ -next time I look at a paper of which you disapprove, I will have to think about internalised assumptions -is that on the health page?

Its a good idea when absorbing media of any persuasion what their assumptions and prejudices might be bearing in mind who owns/runs them, then form your own view.

 

[Pavilionaire]

Yet last time round, the lefities on here were saying how well JC had done -now they have been justifiably hammered at the polls, it is all the fault of the press.

I'm clearly not saying it is all the fault of the press, but you have to factor in the right wing media into the equation, just as you do with the unions, Momentum etc.

Corbyn was never ever going to win a GE because of his credentials re terrorists, the EU, the monarchy, anti- semitism. He gave the opposition too much rope and they hung him.

Labour have worked with other opposition parties re Brexit, they must continue to do so on policy so if they are to remain separate from the Lib Dems then at least both parties must be able to work together in coalition and stand down candidates in elections if necessary.

 

[Hastings gull]

Its a good idea when absorbing media of any persuasion what their assumptions and prejudices might be bearing in mind who owns/runs them, then form your own view.

OK. thanks

 

[lawros left foot]

I don't see Labour winning a majority any time soon, regardless of which individual is leader. They have the right wing print media to contend with, then there are the unions and all the infighting that goes with that. Too much baggage.

The only way to fight the Tories and their machine is to create a single alternative merged party with the Lib Dems - a UK 'Democrat' Party if you will.

Their combined vote on Thursday was 45%, and that was with two unpopular leaders in charge, yet 45% would usually be enough to win a General Election.

If that party presented their leading lights on shows like Question Time as Starmer, Umunna, Lammy, Rayner, Layla Moran, Benn, Phillips, Kyle, Davey then I think they would get traction very quickly.

Creating a brand new party is nigh on impossible but merging two machines into one is straightforward enough, and at a stroke you dump the baggage of the past - Corbyn, unions, Blair, Clegg, tuition fees, anti-semitism = gone overnight.

But to support a party like that, I would have to compromise my beliefs. I know what I see as the most beneficial form of governance for the whole country is not popular with the majority of the population, I accept that but, I still believe, given an even chance, socialism could and would work, but,there are too many forces ranged against it.
I don’t think that the right wing establishment in this country would ever allow a truly socialist agenda to ever succeed. To support a new centrist party made up of Blairites, one nation Tories, and LibDems, just to get into Government, for the sake of being in Government, would be like stopping supporting the Albion, and supporting Manchester United instead,cos they are more popular.

It may never be popular, but, I honestly believe that socialism is the best political system.

 

[Pavilionaire]

But to support a party like that, I would have to compromise my beliefs. I know what I see as the most beneficial form of governance for the whole country is not popular with the majority of the population, I accept that but, I still believe, given an even chance, socialism could and would work, but,there are too many forces ranged against it.
I don’t think that the right wing establishment in this country would ever allow a truly socialist agenda to ever succeed. To support a new centrist party made up of Blairites, one nation Tories, and LibDems, just to get into Government, for the sake of being in Government, would be like stopping supporting the Albion, and supporting Manchester United instead,cos they are more popular.

It may never be popular, but, I honestly believe that socialism is the best political system.

And I believe there will continue to be a Socialist Party that you could vote for if you didn't want to vote for the new party, but it wouldn't win many seats under FPTP.

Indeed, your comments seem to confirm the perception in some quarters than Labour is a protest party, not a serious party of government. If you want to win elections in the UK under FPTP you have to compromise to win a majority. Blair and Campbell got this.

And there's no rule that says a Democrat Party would have to be Blairite. Indeed, a new party would have its own constitution based on the needs and demands of a modern 21st century global nation but with a centre left core.

 

[Hastings gull]

But to support a party like that, I would have to compromise my beliefs. I know what I see as the most beneficial form of governance for the whole country is not popular with the majority of the population, I accept that but, I still believe, given an even chance, socialism could and would work, but,there are too many forces ranged against it.
I don’t think that the right wing establishment in this country would ever allow a truly socialist agenda to ever succeed. To support a new centrist party made up of Blairites, one nation Tories, and LibDems, just to get into Government, for the sake of being in Government, would be like stopping supporting the Albion, and supporting Manchester United instead,cos they are more popular.

It may never be popular, but, I honestly believe that socialism is the best political system.

Shame I could not have taken you to see East Germany prior to 1989 - you might not then be so keen. And as to the forces ranged against it -how about simply human nature?

 

[borat]

Labour are certainly in a difficult position going forward in terms of electing a new leader. If they are keep towards the left of the party, they will receive the same mass media negative onslaught that Corbyn had to face (I include the Guardian in this. If they go towards the right, they risk being a party lacking identity where it might not be clear where they stand (Lib Dems in all but name).

Whats clear from this election is that if you try to increase taxes for the wealthy, are critical of Israel or Saudi Arabia, are reticent to use nuclear weapons, argue for press reform, welcome immigration in any form....you will struggle to get elected in this country. The full weight of the press will come down on you, relentlessy until the voters perception of you generally negative. The major press is owned by just a few billionaires and they have their own distinct priorities

From my (and any one left leanings) perspective there is a glimmer of hope (all be it very small). The influence of ''Mainstream media'' overtime will start to decline as more independent outlets and social media grows. We are seeing this in the states where independent media has helped to give Bernie Sanders some kind of chance. He is still getting the MSM negative treatment but 10/20 years ago someone like him would have zero chance of getting near the Whitehouse.

Secondly Labour outpoll Tories in the 18 - 40 age range. Tories poll at around 81% for 70+ age range. Time may shift voting patterns as youth saddled with debt and struggling to get on the housing ladder become more politicised and older Tory voters die off

 

[Surf's Up]

Richard Burgos has formally announced his run for the leadership, would be a great choice IMHO.

You're not the Messiah, you're just a very naughty boy!!

 

[Guinness Boy]

Ok, does that mean you are opposed to all sub-groups within labour, with suggestions as to who you should support, such as Labour Friends of Israel or Progress, or is it just the left-wing ones you dont like.

Was the free broadband idea specifically sponsored by momentum and Im not sure why it should be unachievable. I agree about Brexit - again I dont know if that was particularly a momentum thing though? I think the party should have, as at the laqst election categorically stated that it supported the result of the refarendum but go for a soft brexit. again this is not a particularly left/right argument but splits both ways. You may be right about too many ideas at the forefront of the campaign but are there any that you regard as particularly objectionable?

You've answered one point with an absolute plethora of questions. Classic deflection / conspiracy theory tactics.

Not sure why you've mentioned Friends of Israel. Maybe for the same reason you used the word "Zionist" twice in another answer to me, No wonder Jews don't trust Labour.

Free broadband isn't doable. There's loads of evidence for this on the GE main thread from people who work in the industry. No need to go back over it all.

And the main issue with the number of policies is that, put all together, they are unachievable and would bankrupt the country. Socialism in pure form cannot sustain. The income from tax simply does not match expenditure. It's all very worthy, and the main reason for my frustration is because I see genuine misery under Johnson. Homelessness, a malfunctioning NHS, employment statistics masked by underpaid gig economy "jobs". But throwing the ideological kitchen sink at it isn't the answer. As others have posted on this thread the genuine working class are a bit more savvy that that, and they want to get on, not be ground down by their employer on the one hand and their union on the other.

 

[Sussex Nomad]

Its a good idea when absorbing media of any persuasion what their assumptions and prejudices might be bearing in mind who owns/runs them, then form your own view.

Clearly patronising.

 

[lawros left foot]

Shame I could not have taken you to see East Germany prior to 1989 - you might not then be so keen. And as to the forces ranged against it -how about simply human nature?

East Germany and indeed the whole of the Soviet block was never socialist. They may have called themselves socialist, but, like the National Socialist Party, they were never ever socialist