[Politics] Next leader of the Labour party

[Neville's Breakfast]

Errmm .......... there is a considerable difference between 'unable' and 'unwilling'.

Yes old chap, I know of Lord Such’s sad demise. Now you are making me explain the joke !!

 

[DavidinSouthampton]

Investment in the North I think is a massive need and it's the one thing I hope this government will do more than anything. But I can't get on board with the idea that repaying these voters faith simply means writing bigger welfare cheques.

I understand that to a large extent people have become dependant on money from the state, and to that extent they have to be looked out for, you can't simply pull the rug out from under them. But in the long run it's not the way to help people, not really. One good argument for giving people something like universal credit is because people pay a lot of tax. Ok, so stop taxing people so much, it's their money let them keep it in the first place, rather than stealing it from them and then giving a little back. That's the conservative position.

If you invest in the north, and crucially help people to develop the skills needed for a modern economy, then they can thrive and don't need so much help from the state. Depending on the state in order to get by is a drain on peoples self confidence sense of independence. Giving people the means to work hard, earn well, and keep what they earn is the real source of confidence and indepenence. With a healthy economy and a fairer distribution of opportunity people don't need the state so much, and in turn the state has to do more than just offer them handouts in order to win votes and get elected, which would also be an improvement.

Having people dependent on a welfare state is of far greater benefit to the state than it is to the people who receive it. It's a very poor subsitute for self reliance and prosperity. People talk a lot about fairness, but in a truley fair society you get out what you put in and everyone has an equal shot at succeeding for themselves and their families if they want to.

I don't disagree with what you are saying, but you are overemphasising what I mentioned about increasing Universal Credit. I am not wanting to encourage people to "sponge off the state" (an expression I hate), but do want to make sure people are adequately taken care of IF they need it. I mainly meant it as a social justice issue that needs to be addressed in terms that there are plenty of people around today who are genuinely suffering because they are inadequately catered for...…. and they could well have voted Conservative.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

What is a "right wing" version of the tories? If I look at right wing politics and look at the Conservative party, I really don't see what makes them particularly right wing, even if they are technically to the right of center.

I think you misunderstood what Labour voters want. I think maybe (no disrespect) you bought into the politics of envy and resentment, and you thought the working classes did too. But they don't. Why? Because they are some of the hardest working people you will ever find. The politics of "divide and confiscate" doesn't appeal to them. They just want fairness.

I could be wrong, maybe you aren't into the whole "steal from the rich to give to the poor" thing, but that is where Labour have gone wrong in my opinion. Working class people don't want to steal from other hardworking and successful people, they just want a fair shot at success themselves, and changes in the economic landscape has robbed them of that over time, and they have never really got it back. I hope now they will.

Many definitions of course, but to me the right - left divide is on an axis from Individual - State, and I think the current tory party (perhaps with the exception of boris himself) is quite far along that axis towards 'individual responsibility'. In particular I think they fall into the current American Republican trope of equating businesses with individuals, and trying to cut red tape and lower or remove business taxes, capital gains taxes and so on, so yes, i think they are quite far right at present.

Me, no I am nowhere near the left of that axis, I'm not the person you describe in your post. I'm in the middle, like most, and want that balance. But I do see more likeminded individuals down the left side on issues that matter to me, such as the environment, which I don't see as much on the right. Hence wanting to form that coalition of the left, hence the frustration in my original posts.

To be clear, I don't believe in high personal taxes - I don't think they should be low either, but I recognise that the better off pay the bulk of the personal tax income, and should be thanked, not demonised. And as someone on the threshold of higher income brackets, I get that. I also believe that welfare cheats should be punished, but don't want that to take away from the concept of welfare, as it is essential to provide that safety net, and for it to be supportive enough to actually help those in need.

What I want is fairness. Everybody contributes. Everybody benefits, people don't cheat. I hate companies getting away without paying their share, more and more give aways to multi national companies who just stick it on their profit lines. What I want is tax revenues to be distributed fairly, distributed to everyone, to provide services we all use, not used to lower taxes on small sections of society, not used to give breaks to house builders who don't build anything costing below 300k.

But what I mainly want is a party that takes the envirinment seriously, that takes climate change seriously, that, if we have to have brexit, will take controlling immigration seriously. A party that won't let companies act with impunity, that recognises that investment is needed in the prison service, that meets education and health requirements, not 'targets'.

To get that, I think we need true collaborative government, and to get that I think we need a change in our electoral system

 

[dingodan]

I don't disagree with what you are saying, but you are overemphasising what I mentioned about increasing Universal Credit. I am not wanting to encourage people to "sponge off the state" (an expression I hate), but do want to make sure people are adequately taken care of IF they need it. I mainly meant it as a social justice issue that needs to be addressed in terms that there are plenty of people around today who are genuinely suffering because they are inadequately catered for...…. and they could well have voted Conservative.

You are right in the sense that a lot of the people who will have voted conservative this time around are also likely people who are on low incomes and finding life hard. But in my view, paying them back for their vote doesn't mean giving them more money, it means helping them make more money for themselves. If this Conservative government is successful at all the outcome will be people getting (and needing) less help from the state, & being happy about that fact.

A lot of work to do, and it will require significant and bold investment for sure.

 

[crodonilson]

Richard Burgos has formally announced his run for the leadership, would be a great choice IMHO.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

I wonder how many people of your view have lent their support to Labour in recent years. It may explain the current destruction of the party and answer the question being posed on this thread. Labour will now tilt towards those of your view or towards its traditional support. This leadership election is of crucial importance.

Well, many, of course. If peoples political views are a bell curve, most of us are in the middle. There will be a good 30-40% of tory voters just waiting for the right centrist party to emerge to lend their votes to it. Tony Blair 's 180 seat majority, swamping boris's current one providing the evidence for that.

The question is more - how left can we go and still win? Kinnock was in right place but couldn't gain voters trust. We didn't need all of Blairs majority. Brown would have been good if the global economy hasn't have exploded after he took over. Milliband had the right balance, coupled with a personality that said 'don't elect me, ever'. The latter is the truth, (1) get a leader everyone loves. (2) write a manifesto people want to read. You can add anything you like once you're elected.

Jess Phillips, much as I like her, is to divisive to the left of her own party. Starmer has gravitas, you can see him as pm, but his time at cps doesn't sound all good, and hes a staunch remainer. So am I, but I think right now we need a leaver - not a hard leaver, but a leaver none the less.

Lisa Nandy for me. I'm so impressed with her. She's not a shouter, however, which should be a bonus but in this day and age... But if she can find a loud voice, we'll she's bright, articulate, balanced - and not just for someone from Wigan really articulate and thoughtful and every time I've seen her on TV she cuts through the tories crap. And she voted to leave. No surprise her seat in the red wall didn't fall.

 

[Seagull1989]

The reason Labour lost this election was down to Brexit. They were in a catch 22 situation, back Leave and they lose seats in the south and London. Back remain and they lose seats in the North.

You just have to look at the %change in their vote in Leave areas and Remain areas to see this was an issue. Corbyns at fault for this due to his performance, or lack of, during the referendum. Once everyone voted leave it was impossible to change their mind.

 

[Nitram]

Wont make any difference until they expunge the cancer that is Momentum. Will a new leader do that? Doubt it as they will have to be elected with their support.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Well, many, of course. If peoples political views are a bell curve, most of us are in the middle. There will be a good 30-40% of tory voters just waiting for the right centrist party to emerge to lend their votes to it. Tony Blair 's 180 seat majority, swamping boris's current one providing the evidence for that.

The question is more - how left can we go and still win? Kinnock was in right place but couldn't gain voters trust. We didn't need all of Blairs majority. Brown would have been good if the global economy hasn't have exploded after he took over. Milliband had the right balance, coupled with a personality that said 'don't elect me, ever'. The latter is the truth, (1) get a leader everyone loves. (2) write a manifesto people want to read. You can add anything you like once you're elected.

Jess Phillips, much as I like her, is to divisive to the left of her own party. Starmer has gravitas, you can see him as pm, but his time at cps doesn't sound all good, and hes a staunch remainer. So am I, but I think right now we need a leaver - not a hard leaver, but a leaver none the less.

Lisa Nandy for me. I'm so impressed with her. She's not a shouter, however, which should be a bonus but in this day and age... But if she can find a loud voice, we'll she's bright, articulate, balanced - and not just for someone from Wigan really articulate and thoughtful and every time I've seen her on TV she cuts through the tories crap. And she voted to leave. No surprise her seat in the red wall didn't fall.

Interesting explanation, thank you. It seems to kind of match the Lib Dem approach but electorally they never seem to quite find that Blairite, centrist sweet spot.

 

[Weststander]

Richard Burgos has formally announced his run for the leadership, would be a great choice IMHO.

Burgon.

Absolutely, nailed on PM from 2025 to 2040.

 

[WilburySeagull]

What is a "right wing" version of the tories? If I look at right wing politics and look at the Conservative party, I really don't see what makes them particularly right wing, even if they are technically to the right of center.

I think you misunderstood what Labour voters want. I think maybe (no disrespect) you bought into the politics of envy and resentment, and you thought the working classes did too. But they don't. Why? Because they are some of the hardest working people you will ever find. The politics of "divide and confiscate" doesn't appeal to them. They just want fairness.

I could be wrong, maybe you aren't into the whole "steal from the rich to give to the poor" thing, but that is where Labour have gone wrong in my opinion. Working class people don't want to steal from other hardworking and successful people, they just want a fair shot at success themselves, and changes in the economic landscape has robbed them of that over time, and they have never really got it back. I hope now they will.

IThere are plenty of thoughtful comments on this thread but I do find it odd that a number are happy to tell us what northern working class voters think. What labour have to is ask the lost voters themselves what would get them back not make assumptions or tell them what is good for them

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

IThere are plenty of thoughtful comments on this thread but I do find it odd that a number are happy to tell us what northern working class voters think. What labour have to is ask the lost voters themselves what would get them back not make assumptions or tell them what is good for them

I don't know if this is aimed at me or not, as the poster you replied to was replying to me, but certainly I am not attempting to tell working class northerners what to think, there's none on here in any case even if I did want to! I just thought we had something in common in hating a lieing buffoon who wants to sell off the NHS. Apparently not.

No, the reason I vote Labour is precisely because they have a base of millions of working class voters, in our two party system this is the choice to make, and I'm pissed off that they've pissed off. I'm lending them my vote to keep the tories out, and now they want the tories, so time for something different.

But maybe this is the future. If thatcherism has been so successful that there's no longer enough working class voters to win Mansfield or Leigh or Dudley or Grimsby, then **** it, we can all forget them, and make elections between the right and the centre left. Why bother pandering to the working class and the unions if they can't even be bothered voting for their own party?

Ones thing that keeps me happy today is that im a true Brightonian, and although I don't live there or vote there anymore, I'm so proud that my brethren vote for the green party, and for true centre left Labour MPs to the east and west

 

[Machiavelli]

I’ve heard this claim many times recently; that only a select few people know that once we leave we will then enter the next stage of negotiating a trade deal. I’m not sure how these few people reached a point where they felt like owners of this secret and I am not sure what the evidence is for the rest of us being so ignorant of what happens next. The trade deal was much discussed during the election campaign and it has only taken 3 years to reach this point because of blocking by Labour, the Liberals and the Speaker. People know this which in large part explains why Redcar, Workington and Blyth are now Conservative seats.

You quite apparently have a highly selective memory. How many times did our PM block the deal? How many times did the ERG block the deal?
And, really, the trade deal was 'discussed during the election'! Maybe by one man and his dog, certainly not by our PM who did his best to avoid discussing anything.
And how do you really know that the electorate are aware that the Withdrawal Agreement is only the first stage of Brexit? To save you the effort, you don't, because you haven't asked them.

 

[BenGarfield]

Wont make any difference until they expunge the cancer that is Momentum. Will a new leader do that? Doubt it as they will have to be elected with their support.

What are the specific momentum backed policies that are in your view the problem? What policy changes would you make?

 

[Hastings gull]

What are the specific momentum backed policies that are in your view the problem? What policy changes would you make?

If you take a policy such as free broadband for example, in theory there is not much to criticise. But the general scepticism surely revolves around the eye-watering cost of all his bribes, or policies, depending on your view. Yes, he said it is all costed, but you really have to be naïve if you believe the 80 billion, and then the add-on of another 58 billion to accommodate the women, is going to be only funded by relatively few richer folk. It will affect everyone.

 

[Nitram]

What are the specific momentum backed policies that are in your view the problem? What policy changes would you make?

It’s about the Momentum movement infiltrating the Labour Party and eating it out from within. The same policies and tactics failed before in the 80’s and the electorate still reject that kind of socialist utopia in the latest election. Until Labour regains a broader base it will remain unelectable. Tony Blair (favourite hate figure) recognised that last century and someone else needs to now. We need a strong Labour that is more moderate than the crazy bunch we have today.

 

[BenGarfield]

It’s about the Momentum movement infiltrating the Labour Party and eating it out from within. The same policies and tactics failed before in the 80’s and the electorate still reject that kind of socialist utopia in the latest election. Until Labour regains a broader base it will remain unelectable. Tony Blair (favourite hate figure) recognised that last century and someone else needs to now. We need a strong Labour that is more moderate than the crazy bunch we have today.

You havent really answered my question - what are the specific policies in the current labour program that momentum support that you have a problem with?

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

You quite apparently have a highly selective memory. How many times did our PM block the deal? How many times did the ERG block the deal?
And, really, the trade deal was 'discussed during the election'! Maybe by one man and his dog, certainly not by our PM who did his best to avoid discussing anything.
And how do you really know that the electorate are aware that the Withdrawal Agreement is only the first stage of Brexit? To save you the effort, you don't, because you haven't asked them.

Well, we were all reminded of it every five minutes by Remainers such as yourself....and let’s not make the mistake of deliberately confusing different motivations for blocking the deals at different times. As you well know, Boris and others voted against the May deal because they thought we could get a better one. You are attempting to pull the wool over people’s eyes by suggesting equivalence with Labour MPs who simply took every opportunity to ignore the referendum. If you don’t believe me then ask the ex Labour voters of the North.

 

[Lever]

Well, we were all reminded of it every five minutes by Remainers such as yourself....and let’s not make the mistake of deliberately confusing different motivations for blocking the deals at different times. As you well know, Boris and others voted against the May deal because they thought we could get a better one. You are attempting to pull the wool over people’s eyes by suggesting equivalence with Labour MPs who simply took every opportunity to ignore the referendum. If you don’t believe me then ask the ex Labour voters of the North.

Okay.... so why did he also vote for May's deal?

 

[Lever]

It’s about the Momentum movement infiltrating the Labour Party and eating it out from within. The same policies and tactics failed before in the 80’s and the electorate still reject that kind of socialist utopia in the latest election. Until Labour regains a broader base it will remain unelectable. Tony Blair (favourite hate figure) recognised that last century and someone else needs to now. We need a strong Labour that is more moderate than the crazy bunch we have today.

This from Alan Johnson sums it up for me.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_C6wrSgqtA