[Help] New bank fraud - advice sought

[Dorset Seagull]

I have a mother of similar age. I pay all her bills for her so there are no DDs etc, and she is under strict instruction that if anybody from any organisation/company calls, she asks their name and company, tells them her son will call them back and hangs up. (I hope)

Only worry I have is, similar to HWT, grown up kids who wouldn't take kindly to similar instructions.

The trouble is we say the same to her but she still sometimes gets involved

 

[Invicta]

I had that and ignored it, but I had to think about it as I have no Halifax accounts but had just taken (presumably white labelled) car insurance with them and the first payment had gone through about a week earlier. It's a very sophisticated attempt.

On a similar note I had a whatsapp from a mate this week that I've pasted below. He is a senior trader in The City and not likely to fall for chain letter scams. However, the use of English and exclamation marks left me in some doubt so I've just ignored it in terms of passing it on. Pasting it here probably does no harm though.

View attachment 130431

That WhatsApp was doing the rounds 6 months ago.

 

[Barham's tash]

Sounds like a SIM swap fraud.

Given the issues he has where he ‘confirmed’ the transactions - it wasn’t him clearly - but the bank say he did then they might take a little bit of convincing however my advice would be to check if Lloyds were part of the Contingent Reimbursement Model that went live last May.

In theory it means if the receiving bank did anything negligent with regards ignoring red flags when the fraudsters opened their accounts or Lloyds haven’t acted appropriately then all three parties share some element of blame but the important part is your son should be eligible for some/all of the money back.

Google CONTINGENT REIMBURSEMENT MODEL and SIM swap to get some facts but you should be ok to robustly challenge them.

 

[Weststander]

The trouble is we say the same to her but she still sometimes gets involved

My Mum’s the same. The callers are deliberately chummy in their initial chat, meaning that old school polite folk are lured into a conversation.

Lacking my curt manner with crooks (telling them to ....).

 

[knocky1]

I remember in the early 90's seeming to be the only fan on trains to away matches who'd used their own credit card for the train ticket and I'm not talking Boots vouchers.

 

[LamieRobertson]

Get on moneysavingexpert.com ..plenty of peeps on there who will give some help

 

[Bozza]

Sounds like a SIM swap fraud.

Given the issues he has where he ‘confirmed’ the transactions - it wasn’t him clearly - but the bank say he did then they might take a little bit of convincing however my advice would be to check if Lloyds were part of the Contingent Reimbursement Model that went live last May.

In theory it means if the receiving bank did anything negligent with regards ignoring red flags when the fraudsters opened their accounts or Lloyds haven’t acted appropriately then all three parties share some element of blame but the important part is your son should be eligible for some/all of the money back.

Google CONTINGENT REIMBURSEMENT MODEL and SIM swap to get some facts but you should be ok to robustly challenge them.

No, I think what it's likely to be is this...

1. Bad guys have card details and contact number.
2. Bad guys phone HWT's son and say "Dodgy transactions going on, we're going to send you some texts for verification"
3. Bad guys commence purchase transaction online. This is detected by bank's anti-fraud measures which holds the transactions, pending verification of a code texted to HWT's son's phone.
4. HWT's son receives text(s) whilst on the phone to the bad guys. These are legit message(s) and very possibly sit on the same text thread as prior texts from the bank.
5. HWT's son reads out the code to the bad guys on the phone.
6. Bad guys enter the code into the website to complete their transaction.

So, to the bank it will 100% look as though HWT's son verified the transaction using their established anti-fraud process.

 

[knocky1]

Same here, since they started.

Somehow, with their algorithms, in my experience they’ve always spotted frauds in real time, block my card without checking with me and a person from their fraud department calls.

I decline the call for obvious reasons and give them a call back on the normal number.

Good advice on call back. Nationwide Visa have called me for personal info a few times. I would leave but they give me £300 a year cash back. Better than a savings rate.

First Direct rang me in 1995. I was teaching and they rang the Headmaster at school and after chatting with him asked to speak to me to verify the account. I was duly called from the classroom and had a jolly chat with the FD caller and Headmaster. All very surprising as I was working in Riyadh at the time. Must have been around a 20" call for them.

 

[Weststander]

Good advice on call back. Nationwide Visa have called me for personal info a few times. I would leave but they give me £300 a year cash back. Better than a savings rate.

First Direct rang me in 1995. I was teaching and they rang the Headmaster at school and after chatting with him asked to speak to me to verify the account. I was duly called from the classroom and had a jolly chat with the FD caller and Headmaster. All very surprising as I was working in Riyadh at the time. Must have been around a 20" call for them.

I’ve had a Nationwide cc for decades, chosen because they don’t load overseas purchases with a cut for them. They’ve also been fantastic at stopping attempted frauds in real time, sometimes like FD overly cautious, but I’d rather it be that way round.

Pre internet banking, it was chats FD staff with in West Yorkshire.

 

[WATFORD zero]

No, I think what it's likely to be is this...

1. Bad guys have card details and contact number.
2. Bad guys phone HWT's son and say "Dodgy transactions going on, we're going to send you some texts for verification"
3. Bad guys commence purchase transaction online. This is detected by bank's anti-fraud measures which holds the transactions, pending verification of a code texted to HWT's son's phone.
4. HWT's son receives text(s) whilst on the phone to the bad guys. These are legit message(s) and very possibly sit on the same text thread as prior texts from the bank.
5. HWT's son reads out the code to the bad guys on the phone.
6. Bad guys enter the code into the website to complete their transaction.

So, to the bank it will 100% look as though HWT's son verified the transaction using their established anti-fraud process.

Unfortunately, this sounds like the right sequence of events to me. The Bank may not be willing to refund based on this.

 

[Paulie Gualtieri]

No, I think what it's likely to be is this...

1. Bad guys have card details and contact number.
2. Bad guys phone HWT's son and say "Dodgy transactions going on, we're going to send you some texts for verification"
3. Bad guys commence purchase transaction online. This is detected by bank's anti-fraud measures which holds the transactions, pending verification of a code texted to HWT's son's phone.
4. HWT's son receives text(s) whilst on the phone to the bad guys. These are legit message(s) and very possibly sit on the same text thread as prior texts from the bank.
5. HWT's son reads out the code to the bad guys on the phone.
6. Bad guys enter the code into the website to complete their transaction.

So, to the bank it will 100% look as though HWT's son verified the transaction using their established anti-fraud process.

This is what has happened - nicely put.

Contact has been made to obtain the SCA code on the mobile to complete the fraudsters transaction.

The bank has 48 hours from reporting to refute paying the victim, if they can’t it has to be refunded.

I would also log this with action fraud and make sure you give the bank a CRN.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Barham's tash]

No, I think what it's likely to be is this...

1. Bad guys have card details and contact number.
2. Bad guys phone HWT's son and say "Dodgy transactions going on, we're going to send you some texts for verification"
3. Bad guys commence purchase transaction online. This is detected by bank's anti-fraud measures which holds the transactions, pending verification of a code texted to HWT's son's phone.
4. HWT's son receives text(s) whilst on the phone to the bad guys. These are legit message(s) and very possibly sit on the same text thread as prior texts from the bank.
5. HWT's son reads out the code to the bad guys on the phone.
6. Bad guys enter the code into the website to complete their transaction.

So, to the bank it will 100% look as though HWT's son verified the transaction using their established anti-fraud process.

Possibly but also thought HWT mentioned the fraudsters speaking to the bank and therefore would have to spoof the bank that they’ve called the right person therefore possible SIM swap - EDIT: just read back and you’re right they simply took the OTP sent to the son and entered it on the website when ordering the goods.

As you say possibly not much of a leg to stand on but yes I would challenge under CRM and all the other methods others have suggested.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Sounds like a SIM swap fraud.

Given the issues he has where he ‘confirmed’ the transactions - it wasn’t him clearly - but the bank say he did then they might take a little bit of convincing however my advice would be to check if Lloyds were part of the Contingent Reimbursement Model that went live last May.

In theory it means if the receiving bank did anything negligent with regards ignoring red flags when the fraudsters opened their accounts or Lloyds haven’t acted appropriately then all three parties share some element of blame but the important part is your son should be eligible for some/all of the money back.

Google CONTINGENT REIMBURSEMENT MODEL and SIM swap to get some facts but you should be ok to robustly challenge them.

Thanks for that. Will do

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Possibly but also thought HWT mentioned the fraudsters speaking to the bank and therefore would have to spoof the bank that they’ve called the right person therefore possible SIM swap - EDIT: just read back and you’re right they simply took the OTP sent to the son and entered it on the website when ordering the goods.

As you say possibly not much of a leg to stand on but yes I would challenge under CRM and all the other methods others have suggested.

[MENTION=6886]Bozza[/MENTION] is exactly correct sadly.

 

[vegster]

Hi @HWT. Very sorry to hear about that, the scummers are relentlessly inventive. This must be a recent scam, because the texted code to confirm a purchase bank routine, isn’t that old.

A warning to all about another scam now doing the rounds, I received this text this time yesterday:

View attachment 130426

Luckily I have no Halifax accounts, so knew it was from scammers.

Anyone with the Halifax making the mistake of clicking on the link, are taken to a legit looking Halifax bank portal. All your logon details and passwords are then gleaned by the crooks, who’ll strip the victim of everything in Halifax accounts.

I have had this in the form of an e-mail, they asked me to confirm my recent purchases on i-tunes by clicking on a link, I have never had any Apple product in my life so no problem ignoring it, the problem comes if someone had recently bought something via i-tunes ... they just might fall for it.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

This is what has happened - nicely put.

Contact has been made to obtain the SCA code on the mobile to complete the fraudsters transaction.

The bank has 48 hours from reporting to refute paying the victim, if they can’t it has to be refunded.

I would also log this with action fraud and make sure you give the bank a CRN.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Thanks for that.

I just spoke to him. He has spoken to the bank and they are still saying 'your problem mate'. He has asked for details of the transactions and the bank gave him some phone numbers (?) that go to voicemail when he calls them. I have told him to call the bank again and tell them to give him full and proper details of from whom he has supposedly bought goods.

He has attempted to report this to action fraud but the line went dead in the middle of the call. He's phoned back and is on hold. Rather a lot of crime about today, it seems.

Cheers.

 

[Weststander]

I have had this in the form of an e-mail, they asked me to confirm my recent purchases on i-tunes by clicking on a link, I have never had any Apple product in my life so no problem ignoring it, the problem comes if someone had recently bought something via i-tunes ... they just might fall for it.

I’ve always been confident on money matters and savvy to scams, but was moments away a few months back to be being scammed via an email with a link from the TV Licensing Authority, telling me that my DD had failed.

Facing many new personal and business emails in my outlook inbox, it seemed an innocuous and tedious bit of domestic admin to clear.

Clever by the wnkrs, because in the minds-eye of recipients we’re talking a tiny monthly sum. But once they have access, they can steak an entire bank balance.

At the last second, I’ll pulled back. A lesson to me to slow down a bit.

 

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Thanks for that.

I just spoke to him. He has spoken to the bank and they are still saying 'your problem mate'. He has asked for details of the transactions and the bank gave him some phone numbers (?) that go to voicemail when he calls them. I have told him to call the bank again and tell them to give him full and proper details of from whom he has supposedly bought goods.

He has attempted to report this to action fraud but the line went dead in the middle of the call. He's phoned back and is on hold. Rather a lot of crime about today, it seems.

Cheers.

I have a Lloyds cc and if I look online I can get good info for each transaction, can he do this with NatWest?

I now use Metro for family household account and Starling for my disposable money. Both appear to have good security measures..


If nothing else you could offer the boy a little of your wisdom and tell him to put his bank on ignore

 

[Hampster Gull]

Sorry to hear this HWT, they are scum. Fingers crossed the bank refund. And thanks for sharing, i will to have a chat with the boys when they are back at christmas.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I have a Lloyds cc and if I look online I can get good info for each transaction, can he do this with NatWest?

I now use Metro for family household account and Starling for my disposable money. Both appear to have good security measures..


If nothing else you could offer the boy a little of your wisdom and tell him to put his bank on ignore

Sadly it looks like it was his own naivety. He is extraordinarily trusting. This is nowhere near the worst episode his trust has triggered.

When I saw him earlier today he was in tears, poor sod. I have told him that whatever happens I'll replace the stolen money. In the meantime I have put him to work on (what appears to be a futile) attempt to get to the bottom of it. Good for the soul.

Thanks again for all those who have offered advice. It is greatly appreciated. I may well suggest the boy puts his bank on ignore (that suggestion made me smile) if they insist on being unhelpful. They could at least help him chase down the transactions with a little more engagement. I suspect the later Friday timing of the scam was done in the expectation that weekend staff may be manning the tills and phonelines....clever scam.