Nationalise Port Talbot?

[Guy Fawkes]

That plant is losing £1 million a day. - Would it be better to spend that part of our limited Governmental budget elsewhere (schools, hospitals, etc)

What are the prospects of it becoming profitable again any time soon (the world market is suffering from very cheap Chinese imports, future demands ) what's going to change to make our steel industry self sufficient and break even or profitable again?

Or will it be just delaying the inevitable?

 

[Fitzcarraldo]

Really ? I know the figures can be subjective but this is what Rothchilds think :

I doubt those figures for a couple of reasons. Firstly I reckon the government would have been trumpeting about it if we looked like we were actually going to make a profit from the nationalisations, and, secondly, The National Audit Office reckons we are still down a quid or two and seems fairly uncertain we will regain anywhere near all of it: https://www.nao.org.uk/highlights/taxpayer-support-for-uk-banks-faqs/

I don't know much about it, but I think they should be at least partly renationalised - whatever it takes to save them. There are more than just 4000 jobs at the steelworks at stake, think of all the shops, restaurants and services in the area that are completely reliant on there being a large workforce at Port Talbot (and whatever other sites). Plus there is surely some kind of strategic advantage from having a steel industry in the country. As stated above/below Italy saved their steel industry, Germany subsidies theirs, why shouldn't we save ours?

 

[Honky Tonx]

If cheap Chinese steel is to blame, pay British steel workers the same as their Chinese counterparts and reduce the cost of British steel

 

[Scunner]

I thought that EU laws effectively prevent governments from propping up their domestic industries and providing subsidies to ailing industries? This could prevent Cameron from providing the assistance Port Talbot needs, even if he was inclined to renationalise it.

I agree with the premise that there is a social cost to losing the steelworks jobs. There is also an intangible cost to the UK of losing a domestic steelmaking capability - what price is the UK prepared to pay to preserve the ability to make steel in this country?

Correct - EU law would explicitly prevent the UK parliament from artificially propping up PT.

 

[Tim Over Whelmed]

Well indeed. Perhaps that is a question. 40% of our energy production still (rightly or wrongly) relies on coal, and yet we import a huge swathe of that from Russia - hardly a stable bedfellow for your energy security.

Steel is essential to construction and manufacture. If we were unable to import steel competitively, or China stopped being the world's Builders Merchants, then how do we construct our buildings, our weapons and defence, our car manufacturing industry?

Keep taking away our own ability to be a self sustaining economy (perhaps that is already long gone), then we are forever reliant on importing. If our energy security and construction materials are going to be completely in the hands of other markets, we are ever dependent on others. As I asked BG, is profitability in a worldwide market the only measure?

I apologise if I've got this wrong, and these are merely observations.

If we want to retain an ability to create steel maybe the answer is a downsized and profitable industry, we have huge over capacity so should we nationalise and rationalise the estate? This would still cost money but 20,000 on the rock 'n' roll is going to cost a fair few quid too, along with the social costs.

Is there a hidden loss here that we're not seeing? i.e. Did the current owners invest on the back of producing steel for key government projects such as cross rail,HS2 etc, and at set prices? So although the loss is in excess of £365m a year there may also be current non-direct support in this business?

Above all feel very sorry for the industry BUt can we please look at the true cost and when we spend money we invest in the future, training and REAL jobs not prop up an industry that may already on its knees.

 

[Pavilionaire]

If cheap Chinese steel is to blame, pay British steel workers the same as their Chinese counterparts and reduce the cost of British steel

You should email your suggestion to George Osborne.

 

[Guy Fawkes]

What about the other steel plants across the country? - I believe Tata Steel is looking to close them too, so should they be nationalised too? - how much are they all losing?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I doubt those figures for a couple of reasons. Firstly I reckon the government would have been trumpeting about it if we looked like we were actually going to make a profit from the nationalisations, and, secondly, The National Audit Office reckons we are still down a quid or two and seems fairly uncertain we will regain anywhere near all of it: https://www.nao.org.uk/highlights/taxpayer-support-for-uk-banks-faqs/

I don't know much about it, but I think they should be at least partly renationalised - whatever it takes to save them. There are more than just 4000 jobs at the steelworks at stake, think of all the shops, restaurants and services in the area that are completely reliant on there being a large workforce at Port Talbot (and whatever other sites). Plus there is surely some kind of strategic advantage from having a steel industry in the country. As stated above/below Italy saved their steel industry, Germany subsidies theirs, why shouldn't we save ours?

The link to those figures I found was on the NAO website

 

[spongy]

I'm a sheet metal worker. The problem with Tata is that they make crap steel. A lot of our suppliers now source from China because Tata had some quality issues with their coils.

I was folding a job only a month ago and the material kept splitting, it's not supposed to. Was traced back to Tata plant at Port Talbot.

If you make sub standard steel, buyers will notice and buy from elsewhere. We try and actively avoid Tata where possible.

 

[Honky Tonx]

The chance of that **** doing anything sensible is unlikely, but then again he does enjoy watching us poor folk suffer.

 

[Honky Tonx]

It's the fault of the Welsh, too busy chasing wool than making decent steel.

 

[NODC]

I have limited knowledge of the steel industry, but while it is suggested that we should be protecting this industry so that we don't have to rely on potentially volatile import and safeguard UK reliance do we not need to import the raw materials anyway, so the risk is already there?

 

[LlcoolJ]

As this is all caused by the Chinese then surely Gideon and Dave can just have a quick word with them and sort it out.

They said that they were best friends now. Partners for long term economic stability and....

Dave..? Dave.......? Oh.

 

[beorhthelm]

As this is all caused by the Chinese then surely Gideon and Dave can just have a quick word with them and sort it out.

its not just the Chinese but Russia and other producers. years ago there was massive demand and prices rocketed, as that capacity came on line, its coincided with the demand falling. so lots of factories have to output at a loss to get the revenue coming in to pay for overheads (while getting in to debt). if China were to stop importing into Europe tomorrow it wouldn't impact the world price for steel as the total demand/oversupply would remain the same.

 

[5ways]

It is loss-making and there is cheaper competition. You cannot defy the laws of the market, if it is uncompetitive it is uncompetitive. It would be better to spend the money to ease the transition of the workers into new industries.

 

[LlcoolJ]

its not just the Chinese but Russia and other producers. years ago there was massive demand and prices rocketed, as that capacity came on line, its coincided with the demand falling. so lots of factories have to output at a loss to get the revenue coming in to pay for overheads (while getting in to debt). if China were to stop importing into Europe tomorrow it wouldn't impact the world price for steel as the total demand/oversupply would remain the same.

Yes but they could tell the Chinese to stop fannying about and build more skyscrapers as it's their fault that demand has fallen. We're all "in this together" after all.

 

[glasfryn]

yes but they could tell the chinese to stop fannying about and build more skyscrapers as it's their fault that demand has fallen. We're all "in this together" after all.

we are
they are not

 

[JJ McClure]

If the plant is losing £1m a day, that's a shed load of disability benefit that Osborne's going to have to cut.

 

[JetsetJimbo]

Correct - EU law would explicitly prevent the UK parliament from artificially propping up PT.

Feel free to disagree with this, but it seems you're implying "the government would like to sort this out, and would do so if it wasn't for the pesky EU tying our hands". But that overlooks a key fact -- the EU wanted to impose higher import fees on Chinese steel, but the Tory government stopped them as recently as February.

 

[LlcoolJ]

Feel free to disagree with this, but it seems you're implying "the government would like to sort this out, and would do so if it wasn't for the pesky EU tying our hands". But that overlooks a key fact -- the EU wanted to impose higher import fees on Chinese steel, but the Tory government stopped them as recently as February.

Ah, I see now. This is what we've gained by getting cosy with China.

This government is truly indefensible and is ruining Britain.