Nationalise Port Talbot?

[beorhthelm]

Then pay to have it upgraded.

It would be verging on the insane for us not to be able to produce steel as a nation. Surely it's a matter of national security?

if upgrading such a plant were feasible, im sure it would have been done a long time ago. the point to focus on is what is in the interest of national security, strategic steel making capacity or this steel plant in particular. if the latter is incompatible with the former, it may have to be let go. i'm for retaining strategic manufacturing, but not retaining a site for sake of it.

and right now, we dont even know that it will close, if it may be sold. its far too early, this is a matter that will take weeks to decide and longer to resolve.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

My day job is planning and risk management - I'm forever trying to look ahead and smooth the way.
This is coming over as a bomb-shell - did nobody see this coming?
I've done some economics at Uni - I'm a firm believer in market forces - if a product has a demand and demand is influenced by quality and price, not just need, it will sell.
If there is competition that you can't match on quality and price [for whatever reason] and you can't easily fix your price / quality disadvantage - you get out.

History has shown us that when a community has become dependant on a single employer and that employer goes to the wall, as painful as it is, life goes on.
But someone should have seen this coming .....

I understand and appreciate some of this but equally this shows a lack of joined up thinking. As you will know, competition keeps prices down; once Britain has got rid of all its steel who knows what price China will charge? Port Talbot might act as a price lid? Also, what's the cost of 40,000 direct and indirect people on the dole? My point being that it's not just simple face value economics.

 

[Thunder Bolt]

My day job is planning and risk management - I'm forever trying to look ahead and smooth the way.
This is coming over as a bomb-shell - did nobody see this coming?
I've done some economics at Uni - I'm a firm believer in market forces - if a product has a demand and demand is influenced by quality and price, not just need, it will sell.
If there is competition that you can't match on quality and price [for whatever reason] and you can't easily fix your price / quality disadvantage - you get out.

History has shown us that when a community has become dependant on a single employer and that employer goes to the wall, as painful as it is, life goes on.
But someone should have seen this coming .....

The warnings were there when Redcar closed.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Wouldn't happen in Germany

Key is sticking to an industrial strategy

As a share of its economy, Germany’s manufacturing sector is twice the size of Britain’s – 23% of national GDP, compared with 11%, according to the World Bank. And unlike Britain, it runs a large surplus on trade in goods. The German steel industry has not buckled under the pressure of dumping by China.
So what’s the secret? How can high-cost, high-tax Germany thrive as an industrial superpower while Britain has seen the progressive hollowing out of its manufacturing base?
Let’s start by qualifying these stereotypes. Not everything in Germany is wonderful. Export growth in recent years has been based on a decade-long suppression of wages, which has meant the benefits of growth have gone to the owners rather than the workers.
Nor is Britain the industrial wasteland of popular myth. There are world-class UK companies – Rolls-Royce, BAE Systems – and there are plenty of mid-sized firms employing between 200 and 500 people that in Germany would be classified as being part of a “Mittelstand”.
That said, Germany is in a different league to Britain. It has more world-class companies in a broader range of sectors – take Siemens, BMW, Bosch – supported by a more densely packed network of Mittelstand companies.
Part of the story involves history and culture. Germany’s industrial power was built on a core of family-owned businesses. They plan for the long-term, pride themselves on quality and see themselves as having social obligations to the local community.
These companies thrived in the decades after 1945 when the economy boomed. Whereas UK companies were often hindered by an over-valued pound, the mark was under-valued, making German exports extremely competitive in world markets.
Another part of the story involves the structure of German industry. The emphasis on vocational education, combining academic studies and on-the-job training for apprentices, is globally admired. German companies are also the beneficiaries of close links between industry and the banking sector that ensures guaranteed long-term funding.
While UK companies regularly fret about hitting short-term targets, their German rivals have been able to concentrate on making small improvements to their products that help to keep them ahead of the field.
The final piece of the tale involves the support given by the state. One key pillar is provided by the Fraunhofer-Gesellschaft, a part publicly-funded research organisation that provides applied science for companies that would otherwise find the cost prohibitive.
The German government has also used tax incentives to foster industries seen as having potential. One lesson for Britain is that there is a virtue in having an industrial strategy – and sticking to it.

 

[beorhthelm]

As a share of its economy, Germany’s manufacturing sector is twice the size of Britain’s – 23% of national GDP, compared with 11%, according to the World Bank. And unlike Britain, it runs a large surplus on trade in goods. The German steel industry has not buckled under the pressure of dumping by China.
So what’s the secret?

i agree with the principle of strategic planning, but the Guardian piece doesn't actually address the question about how German steel industry survives, it goes off on a tangent about broader economic strategy. maybe if we didnt impose carbon taxes and worked around other regulations, some of our steel would be cheaper to produce?

 

[London Irish]

Cameron's response is pretty pathetic as expected.

Cameron assumes steel workers just become male strippers


STEELWORKERS can make a good living if they retrain as male strippers, David Cameron has announced.

The prime minister has cancelled a planned crisis meeting at Downing Street after drawing up his ‘foolproof strategy’ for 40,000 steel industry workers.

He said: “In my efforts to find out what a ‘steel worker’ is I came across an old film about some men from Sheffield who lose their ‘steel working’ jobs and form a male striptease act.

“They became very successful and everyone was happy. Stripping for money is much more dignified than ‘steel working’ which seems to involve high temperatures and grime. Ghastly.”

He added: “If absolutely necessary we could offer low interest loans so the ‘steel workers’ can retrain as male strippers, but it does look pretty straightforward. You just take your clothes off.

“And as far as I understand, the working class parts of Britain are full of drunk, easily pleased women who will pay good money to see your naked buttocks or perhaps even a brief glimpse of your genitals.

“Off you go.”

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...ers-just-become-male-strippers-20160331107633

 

[Bevendean Hillbilly]

Nationalise. No alternative. The next global war will be between ourselves and the Chinese and I for one don't want the Royal Navy sailing off in ships made of gyproc and sellotape because our mortal enemies have got all the metal.

I'd also have to retire one of my favourite Judas Priest albums.

 

[London Irish]

If a buyer cannot be found, is it time to take back a crucial industry? Is this just left wing idealism, or is it actually economic realism?

If it goes under, we not only lose 20,000 jobs, but our dependency on importing only increases.

Imports are currently cheaper, but will that always be the case. Isn't something as fundamental as the production of steel be protected and potentially owned by us, even if it does run at a loss to start with?

Nationalising is undoubtedly considered the preserve of the left, but isn't it a capitalist thing to do? Didn't we nationalise the banks to save them, and effectively us - that has turned out to be a prudent thing to have done, so why not for such a fundamental industry in this country?

Discuss.

The Tories were so at sea on Tuesday night that one of their flaks briefed ITN that they were considering nationalisation.

Looks like now they are just going to brazen it out with the **** you strategy so beloved of Tories whenever workers and their communities hit trouble.

They will pay heavily for this - this shit doesn't wash anymore, nobody believes the government should just be standing idly by as vital strategic industries and their skilled workforce are destroyed.

As Paul Mason has said today --The Tories would not be facing a steel collapse now if they had a) put the suspension of state aid rules on the table with Brussels b) consistently argued against the EU imposing anti-dumping tariffs on China c) gave a shit.

"Therefore the only answer is temporary nationalisation, the suspension of state aid rules, the long-term imposition of punitive tariffs on China, and the taxpayer injecting millions a year into the industry until it turns around. The British government could, and should, simply take Stephen Kinnock’s plan, appoint a crisis team in Whitehall to make it happen, buy the entire business from Tata for £1 and get to work"

All the whingeing about what this would cost the taxpayer forgets that we will have to pay out millions anyway on benefits and retraining if 40,000 jobs go down the plughole - and sadly we haven't quite figured out an index that measures the human cost in misery to families and communities thrown on the scrapheap.

 

[Herr Tubthumper]

Nice photo of the trade secretary at a black tie gala whilst the news was being announced. He's a modern day Nero

 

[London Irish]

Tata Steel crisis: Jeremy Corbyn petition to recall Parliament reaches 110,000 signatures

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ament-reaches-100000-signatures-a6961486.html

Funny how all the British "patriots" willing to spend untold billions on Trident or on taskforce fleets are nowhere to be seen when it comes to helping ordinary British workers

 

[Shropshire Seagull]

I understand and appreciate some of this but equally this shows a lack of joined up thinking. As you will know, competition keeps prices down; once Britain has got rid of all its steel who knows what price China will charge? Port Talbot might act as a price lid? Also, what's the cost of 40,000 direct and indirect people on the dole? My point being that it's not just simple face value economics.

Competition only helps regulate price [not necessarily keep it down] - as anyone will tell you who read past page one of any basic economics book, the real driver on price is supply and demand.
I'm no steel market expert, but I get the feeling demand remains strong but there is oversupply - in this scenario, the market becomes more price sensitive as consumers get to choose why to purchase. If supplier a) can produce the same [or better quality] product than supplier b), then b) will need to find a way to rebalance their competitive disadvantage. UK plc does not have a good track record of this; Motorbike manufacture, car manufacture, shipbuilding, coal have all taken a hit in my lifetime. Now it's [unfortunately] the turn of steel.

On another point, several have raised a concern that if Port Talbot were to close the UK would have surrendered all its steel manufacture and we will be at the mercy of the Chinese. Is this actually true?
1/ Are there other UK steel manufacturing sites other than Port Talbot?
2/ Are there other global steel manufactures other than the Chinese?

If the answer to either of the above is yes, kinda kills that argument?

For the 40,000 [no idea where this figure comes from] - there will be costs in retraining and unemployment, but if there is no medium / long term likelihood of return to profitability for Tata [unlike the bank bailout] maybe the long term cost is still more favourable to close the business - it's a very tough and unpleasant decision for sure.

 

[London Irish]

Competition only helps regulate price [not necessarily keep it down] - as anyone will tell you who read past page one of any basic economics book, the real driver on price is supply and demand.

The actual real world, where human beings live, is not the theoretical world of a basic economics textbook or an Ayn Rand fantasy novel that Sadiq Javid likes to **** over. It's awash with market distorting practices that it's the job of a responsible government to ameliorate and protect its citizens from.The incompetent shower of public schoolboys that passes for our government basically don't give a shit about protecting ordinary workers and they have no strategy at all for industrial regeneration because they have barely read past page one of a basic economics textbook, trusting the "market" to do everything. The market brought the world to economic ruin in 2007-08 and there was only a recovery because western states spent TRILLIONS not billions TRILLIONS on shoring up the financial system. Sadly the steelworkers don't appear to have the same clout as bankers it seems. Steelworkers, teachers, doctors you name it, the British people have had enough of incompetence

 

[JC Footy Genius]

If this is mainly down to the Chinese flooding the market surely all Steel sectors across Europe are becoming uncompetitive. Which begs the question how are other European countries securing a future for their steel industries in this environment?

 

[London Irish]

If this is mainly down to the Chinese flooding the market surely all Steel sectors across Europe are becoming uncompetitive. Which begs the question how are other European countries securing a future for their steel industries in this environment?

This is an interesting read on that http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/steel-industry-protected-eu-countries-6671639

 

[Blue3]

60,000 direct possibly several million indirect jobs at steak we must not loose our steel industry

 

[The Birdman]

Please help save Port Talbot steelworks otherwise we will be invaded by the Welsh.

 

[hitony]

60,000 direct possibly several million indirect jobs at steak we must not loose our steel industry

A very meaty and good statement

 

[hitony]

Please help save Port Talbot steelworks otherwise we will be invaded by the Welsh.

No worries there...........I am doing Border control as we type!

 

[beorhthelm]

Tata Steel crisis: Jeremy Corbyn petition to recall Parliament reaches 110,000 signatures

really not sure what Corbyn, you and 109,998 others think a recall of Parliament will achieve. a company has announced it intended to sell off some of its businesses. this isnt going to happen imminently and can wait until Monday week when Parliament will return. in the meantime rather than soundbites, maybe politicans can talk to some people in industry and finacnce to put together an actual plan of a possible solution or two, preferably without the word "nationalise" involved so that people can take it seriously. do we want to do something about an indusrty or play up to the gallery?

we could also stop blaming government for not taking action that wont solve the problem. tariffs wont work in global markets because the price will still be determined by world demand, all you do is risk imposing cost on all those with existing contracts for supply.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

This is an interesting read on that http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/steel-industry-protected-eu-countries-6671639

Some sort of management/workforce buy out would appear to be the least worse option with as much Government help as possible assuming they can get permission from the EU.

The European Commission in the past has ordered the recovery of illegal state aid in the steel industry from Belgium, Germany, Italy and Poland.
For instance, the Commission is investigating Italy's third largest steelmaker Ilva, which was given €2bn in government support supposedly to help it comply with emissions and environmental standards. Rivals claim the money is being illegally used to modernise its plant and increase capacity.
The European Commission told the BBC: "EU rules do not allow rescue or restructuring aid such as emergency loans or government guarantees on loans to steel manufacturers in financial difficulties.
"This is because of past experience and taking into account the features of the EU steel industry, in particular its overcapacity."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-35933901