[News] MPs defecting to The Independent Group in parliament

[Weststander]

I would tend to agree in more normal times, as were the times when the SDP was born, but the big difference this time around is Brexit of course. If there were enough serious MPs considering a break-away broadly centrist, pro-EU, progressive party that could become a serious challenge, gaining enough support from the growing moderate 'dispossessed' electorate, then that is a very different proposition to the position in the 1980s. It would be a huge gamble but one that would have a better chance of eventually getting into power or holding the balance of power than the SDP experiment.

I wish that would happen, but really don’t think it will. Umanna, Starma, Cooper, etc won’t have the courage. It would split the Labour vote in constituencies, so one way or another it would be very hard for them to win at a GE. Alas.

If only. With moderate Tory MP’s (yes, there are many, but they don’t hold the headlines), parliament could have a very sensible, centrist compositon.

Instead, like most democracies, our politics has been polarising.

 

[Miserable Les]

You may as well just rebrand the Lib Dems than go to the trouble of creating a new party.

That's one option, but they are too much damaged goods I think. A brand new party would be more appealing to many, including current and previous Lib Dem supporters,

 

[Miserable Les]

I wish that would happen, but really don’t think it will. Umanna, Starma, Cooper, etc won’t have the courage. It would split the Labour vote in constituencies, so one way or another it would be very hard for them to win at a GE. Alas.

If only. With moderate Tory MP’s (yes, there are many, but they don’t hold the headlines), parliament could have a very sensible, centrist compositon.

Instead, like most democracies, our politics has been polarising.

You're probably right. The test will be how polarised does our politics have to become before the vacuum in the centre becomes an irresistible force as opposed to a pipe dream?

 

[jasetheace]

As an interesting aside the Labour PLP have tonight felt the need to pass a unanimous resolution calling on the leadership to do more to tackle anti-semitism. Perhaps Attila will come on again to explain to us how there is no such thing and that the leadership did enough last year?

 

[drew]

You’re right - MP’s won’t voluntarily leave Labour. The SDP experiment shows that after one general election, you’re consigned to the political wilderness. Tory and Labour MP’s both know full well that staying part of popular parties, allows them to keep hold of all the perks, the pension, relative fame (most politicians have large ego’s) and to maintain a tiny influence on policy.

Isn't the pension for an MP paid for by the State rather than the party, afterall, your salary is paid for being an MP not for being a member of the party.

 

[jasetheace]

This thread might need to take a brief respite whilst we all consume the carnage that is emerging from tonight's PLP meeting...

 

[Weststander]

Isn't the pension for an MP paid for by the State rather than the party, afterall, your salary is paid for being an MP not for being a member of the party.

It is. I meant the effect of losing new accrued rights from becoming a ‘civilian’ after being an MP. MP’s pension arrangement are complicated as they are currently in transition, but the true acturial cost is huge, and is related to length of service. To lose your seat after going it alone in a new party, risks all that.

 

[Bold Seagull]

As an interesting aside the Labour PLP have tonight felt the need to pass a unanimous resolution calling on the leadership to do more to tackle anti-semitism. Perhaps Attila will come on again to explain to us how there is no such thing and that the leadership did enough last year?

But this is another story that grabs headlines, but doesn't tell the whole picture. As a democratic party, Labour has a disciplinary committee, the NCC is separate and independent from the leadership. The PLP know this, the debate is about how quickly the cases are being dealt with. The answer is most likely not quickly enough, and the right questions are being asked about one of the reinstatements, but it is important to know there is a clearly defined separation where leadership is not involved with the disciplinary committee.

 

[drew]

But this is another story that grabs headlines, but doesn't tell the whole picture. As a democratic party, Labour has a disciplinary committee, the NCC is separate and independent from the leadership. The PLP know this, the debate is about how quickly the cases are being dealt with. The answer is most likely not quickly enough, and the right questions are being asked about one of the reinstatements, but it is important to know there is a clearly defined separation where leadership is not involved with the disciplinary committee.

But surely the leader can be seen to ask why the disciplinary process is taking so long but he doesn't. He creates a rod for his own back.

 

[beorhthelm]

Funny how the Tories are torn apart over Europe and idiots say Labour is about to split , no MP will leave Labour as that’s the end of their political career and Umunna , Berger , Leslie etc know this .

the "idiots" are the Observer reporting the story. or are they too right wing? i agree it would be the end of those MPs, however as noted if MPs being deselected form a party for the next election, at the very least split the vote in number of seats leading to some loses, shore up a lot of wavering Conservative seats.

 

[Chicken Run]

As an interesting aside the Labour PLP have tonight felt the need to pass a unanimous resolution calling on the leadership to do more to tackle anti-semitism. Perhaps Attila will come on again to explain to us how there is no such thing and that the leadership did enough last year?

Attila is Momentum, no chance of him responding!

 

[portslade seagull]

Attila is Momentum, no chance of him responding!

Think they have been trying to brush it under the carpet and not mention it hoping it would just go away

 

[attila]

Attila is Momentum, no chance of him responding!

Well, here you go then!
There are a few antisemites/conspiracy theorists in the Labour Party, I have met a couple, they are complete nutters. Some have been thrown out, a few more need to be. They are very nasty. I honestly don't know why they were ever let in. They seem to believe that all the capitalists in the world are Jewish and that Israel runs everything. But there are very few of them.

There are loads of anti Zionists (most of them actually Jewish) who have been called 'antisemites' because they don't support the current policies of Israel. The weaponisation of the hideous crime of antisemitism by the representatives of the 72% of Jews who support the Tories (and many the horrendous policies of the current Israeli government) as a point-scoring stick to beat the Labour party with is contemptible, opportunist and very dangerous. I have met the real far right anti semites at first hand, had my gigs targeted, been attacked by them. That is where the real threat comes from. I support Jewish Voice For Labour, and for the record, I loathe Hamas, as I loathe all religious fundamentalism, fully support both the necessity for a Jewish homeland after the Holocaust and a sovereign Palestinian state and therefore support a 2 state solution.

As for the other stuff (being 'dumb and out of touch' and Labour being 'unelectable') I can only repeat that, at the last election, we got 40% of the vote and made inroads in areas previously unheard of. We reduced Tim Loughton's majority by ten thousand here in EWS. What do you mean? Do you honestly think a pragmatic, centrist party led by Umanna and co would get more votes? You might be more likely to vote for them, but they wouldn't - the young would desert us in droves for the Greens, as i voted Green after Blair's criminal, illegal and undemocratic intervention in Iraq. So many are angry beyond belief at the crap, divisive world we have bequeathed them, at the opportunities we had they are now denied , and want real change. It's not about Corbyn. It's about what he represents...

And that, I feel, is the crux of the matter. It is only natural to approch the broad questions from your own perspective: perhaps you mean that at 61 I am out of touch with the majority of my generation. I fully accept that. But I'm certainly not out of touch with the views of the generation below, mine represent them more than yours do, and they, for obvious reasons, are the future. I can't believe how the hippies and punks came to this, and wonder why I, and an energetic minority my age, are so different: I literally do not understand why some of you think being left wing and full of passion charging about as an activist is something you should 'grow out of'. That's the crux of it really, especially given that the extremes of wealth and poverty in this country are heading back to Victorian levels and the old Victorian diseases are coming back...

We really do need to beat Burnely on Saturday............

 

[jasetheace]

Well, here you go then!
There are a few antisemites/conspiracy theorists in the Labour Party, I have met a couple, they are complete nutters. Some have been thrown out, a few more need to be. They are very nasty. I honestly don't know why they were ever let in. They seem to believe that all the capitalists in the world are Jewish and that Israel runs everything. But there are very few of them.

There are loads of anti Zionists (most of them actually Jewish) who have been called 'antisemites' because they don't support the current policies of Israel. The weaponisation of the hideous crime of antisemitism by the representatives of the 72% of Jews who support the Tories (and many the horrendous policies of the current Israeli government) as a point-scoring stick to beat the Labour party with is contemptible, opportunist and very dangerous. I have met the real far right anti semites at first hand, had my gigs targeted, been attacked by them. That is where the real threat comes from. I support Jewish Voice For Labour, and for the record, I loathe Hamas, as I loathe all religious fundamentalism, fully support both the necessity for a Jewish homeland after the Holocaust and a sovereign Palestinian state and therefore support a 2 state solution.

As for the other stuff (being 'dumb and out of touch' and Labour being 'unelectable') I can only repeat that, at the last election, we got 40% of the vote and made inroads in areas previously unheard of. We reduced Tim Loughton's majority by ten thousand here in EWS. What do you mean? Do you honestly think a pragmatic, centrist party led by Umanna and co would get more votes? You might be more likely to vote for them, but they wouldn't - the young would desert us in droves for the Greens, as i voted Green after Blair's criminal, illegal and undemocratic intervention in Iraq. So many are angry beyond belief at the crap, divisive world we have bequeathed them, at the opportunities we had they are now denied , and want real change. It's not about Corbyn. It's about what he represents...

And that, I feel, is the crux of the matter. It is only natural to approch the broad questions from your own perspective: perhaps you mean that at 61 I am out of touch with the majority of my generation. I fully accept that. But I'm certainly not out of touch with the views of the generation below, mine represent them more than yours do, and they, for obvious reasons, are the future. I can't believe how the hippies and punks came to this, and wonder why I, and an energetic minority my age, are so different: I literally do not understand why some of you think being left wing and full of passion charging about as an activist is something you should 'grow out of'. That's the crux of it really, especially given that the extremes of wealth and poverty in this country are heading back to Victorian levels and the old Victorian diseases are coming back...

We really do need to beat Burnely on Saturday............

Yer know, I have tried to comb through this to find genuine fault and apart from little things here and there, I have not been able to. But here is the point, For the most part here, Atilla is passionate and unequivocal where Corbyn can and often is equivocal.

People are looking for genuine. But the early days of Corbyn have been replaced by Fence Sitting and facing both ways.Where Attila is wrong is to assume that many on here don't want radical. This centrist for example would support Re-Nationalisation of the railways among other radical societal change but all these things must be approached with a realism and pragmatism.

Attila, Labour is losing its way and I think you know that. But it might not be too late. One thing I wish the Greens adhered to when they took control of Brighton was that you don't have to do everything overnight and if JC/JD can convince people they will proceed with care, they can still hope to govern.

 

[Audax]

Well, here you go then!
It's not about Corbyn. It's about what he represents...

The problem Labour has is that Corbyn is the figurehead put forward to represent. And for a significant portion of the electorate, he doesn't 'sell' it very well. Let's face it: Corbyn is not, and never will be, a skillful politician. He's not good at exploiting openings to damage the government, and he's not good at mitigating attacks against Labour from the right. He's too passive, which is I think a large part of why significant portions of the press have found it so easy to skew their reporting against him (and by extension against Labour).

My honest opinion: the success of Labour at the last GE was despite Corbyn, not because of Corbyn.

 

[JC Footy Genius]

Well, here you go then!
There are a few antisemites/conspiracy theorists in the Labour Party, I have met a couple, they are complete nutters. Some have been thrown out, a few more need to be. They are very nasty. I honestly don't know why they were ever let in. They seem to believe that all the capitalists in the world are Jewish and that Israel runs everything. But there are very few of them.

There are loads of anti Zionists (most of them actually Jewish) who have been called 'antisemites' because they don't support the current policies of Israel. The weaponisation of the hideous crime of antisemitism by the representatives of the 72% of Jews who support the Tories (and many the horrendous policies of the current Israeli government) as a point-scoring stick to beat the Labour party with is contemptible, opportunist and very dangerous. I have met the real far right anti semites at first hand, had my gigs targeted, been attacked by them. That is where the real threat comes from. I support Jewish Voice For Labour, and for the record, I loathe Hamas, as I loathe all religious fundamentalism, fully support both the necessity for a Jewish homeland after the Holocaust and a sovereign Palestinian state and therefore support a 2 state solution.

As for the other stuff (being 'dumb and out of touch' and Labour being 'unelectable') I can only repeat that, at the last election, we got 40% of the vote and made inroads in areas previously unheard of. We reduced Tim Loughton's majority by ten thousand here in EWS. What do you mean? Do you honestly think a pragmatic, centrist party led by Umanna and co would get more votes? You might be more likely to vote for them, but they wouldn't - the young would desert us in droves for the Greens, as i voted Green after Blair's criminal, illegal and undemocratic intervention in Iraq. So many are angry beyond belief at the crap, divisive world we have bequeathed them, at the opportunities we had they are now denied , and want real change. It's not about Corbyn. It's about what he represents...

And that, I feel, is the crux of the matter. It is only natural to approch the broad questions from your own perspective: perhaps you mean that at 61 I am out of touch with the majority of my generation. I fully accept that. But I'm certainly not out of touch with the views of the generation below, mine represent them more than yours do, and they, for obvious reasons, are the future. I can't believe how the hippies and punks came to this, and wonder why I, and an energetic minority my age, are so different: I literally do not understand why some of you think being left wing and full of passion charging about as an activist is something you should 'grow out of'. That's the crux of it really, especially given that the extremes of wealth and poverty in this country are heading back to Victorian levels and the old Victorian diseases are coming back...

We really do need to beat Burnely on Saturday............

Mmmmm would that be the 'Jewish Voice for Labour' that organised a counter demonstration to the protest attended by 20 Labour MP's and many other Jewish groups complaining that the Labour leadership weren't tackling anti semitism adequately?

https://antisemitism.uk/why-the-so-called-jewish-voice-for-labour-is-a-sham/

A win would be most welcome ...

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Well, here you go then!
There are a few antisemites/conspiracy theorists in the Labour Party, I have met a couple, they are complete nutters. Some have been thrown out, a few more need to be. They are very nasty. I honestly don't know why they were ever let in. They seem to believe that all the capitalists in the world are Jewish and that Israel runs everything. But there are very few of them.

There are loads of anti Zionists (most of them actually Jewish) who have been called 'antisemites' because they don't support the current policies of Israel. The weaponisation of the hideous crime of antisemitism by the representatives of the 72% of Jews who support the Tories (and many the horrendous policies of the current Israeli government) as a point-scoring stick to beat the Labour party with is contemptible, opportunist and very dangerous. I have met the real far right anti semites at first hand, had my gigs targeted, been attacked by them. That is where the real threat comes from. I support Jewish Voice For Labour, and for the record, I loathe Hamas, as I loathe all religious fundamentalism, fully support both the necessity for a Jewish homeland after the Holocaust and a sovereign Palestinian state and therefore support a 2 state solution.

As for the other stuff (being 'dumb and out of touch' and Labour being 'unelectable') I can only repeat that, at the last election, we got 40% of the vote and made inroads in areas previously unheard of. We reduced Tim Loughton's majority by ten thousand here in EWS. What do you mean? Do you honestly think a pragmatic, centrist party led by Umanna and co would get more votes? You might be more likely to vote for them, but they wouldn't - the young would desert us in droves for the Greens, as i voted Green after Blair's criminal, illegal and undemocratic intervention in Iraq. So many are angry beyond belief at the crap, divisive world we have bequeathed them, at the opportunities we had they are now denied , and want real change. It's not about Corbyn. It's about what he represents...

And that, I feel, is the crux of the matter. It is only natural to approch the broad questions from your own perspective: perhaps you mean that at 61 I am out of touch with the majority of my generation. I fully accept that. But I'm certainly not out of touch with the views of the generation below, mine represent them more than yours do, and they, for obvious reasons, are the future. I can't believe how the hippies and punks came to this, and wonder why I, and an energetic minority my age, are so different: I literally do not understand why some of you think being left wing and full of passion charging about as an activist is something you should 'grow out of'. That's the crux of it really, especially given that the extremes of wealth and poverty in this country are heading back to Victorian levels and the old Victorian diseases are coming back...

We really do need to beat Burnely on Saturday............

Decent post and I don't disagree with much of what you say. Perhaps the age issue is a bit greyer than you seem to think (just noticed the pun as I wrote the sentence). Many of the current younger generation seem to have embraced capitalism with a gusto that wasn't common back in the '70s. I think this may be to do with the massive rise in consumerism. A lot of youngsters (and oldies) seem to have an individualistic, rights based ethos rather than the communalism needed to implement socialism. Libertarianism used to be a right wing ideal but no longer. I wonder what is more important to the Glastonbury crowd when push comes to shove; community or self. If the latter then your support may be a little flaker than you think.

 

[clapham_gull]

Yer know, I have tried to comb through this to find genuine fault and apart from little things here and there, I have not been able to. But here is the point, For the most part here, Atilla is passionate and unequivocal where Corbyn can and often is equivocal.

People are looking for genuine. But the early days of Corbyn have been replaced by Fence Sitting and facing both ways.Where Attila is wrong is to assume that many on here don't want radical. This centrist for example would support Re-Nationalisation of the railways among other radical societal change but all these things must be approached with a realism and pragmatism.

Attila, Labour is losing its way and I think you know that. But it might not be too late. One thing I wish the Greens adhered to when they took control of Brighton was that you don't have to do everything overnight and if JC/JD can convince people they will proceed with care, they can still hope to govern.

Re-nationalisation of the Railways isn't a left OR right issue. Bit like Brexit it cuts right through it and the majority of the population support it.

The "is it actually lower fairs" argument above is a red herring. Most people aren't stupid and realise there

1) Simply isn't any competition
2) Splitting up f#### it up anyway (very few people disagree with that)
3) The Government throws in millions anyway.
4) Are relatively calm about fairs being subsidised by general taxation and thus bringing the ticket price down. I don't own a car, but I have no problem whatsoever with my taxes being used to repair the roads.
5) Want "control back" (ain't that a thing) - because they can choose to vote for the party who throws the most money in.

Unfortunately the Tories have politicised it in the belief that taking it back under national control is a left wing ideal. Even Thatcher didn't want to privatise the railways. Unfortunately there wasn't much left for John.

 

[beorhthelm]

4) Are relatively calm about fairs being subsidised by general taxation and thus bringing the ticket price down. I don't own a car, but I have no problem whatsoever with my taxes being used to repair the roads.

your taxes aren't used, road tax and fuel excise are 3 times more than expenditure on the road network.

 

[clapham_gull]

your taxes aren't used, road tax and fuel excise are 3 times more than expenditure on the road network.

road tax ?