[News] MPs defecting to The Independent Group in parliament

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

They're passionate about the EU because they've been sold the cultural argument on 'Internationalism' and fallen for the lie that wanting a break from the EU is only the wish of little Englanders. I mean, they even believe all our workers rights are only thanks to the EU! They are sadly deluded.

Ah the old 'they only think that because' argument.

You only think that because you are a bit older, feel you have lost out a bit in life, and resent the naive vigour of the young.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

100% agree with you.

The Brexit vote was a free vote not along any party lines. What I find so frustrating is Corbyn trying to use the divisions to get the Labour Party into power. Brexit is an individual view not a party and MPs should not be whipped.

Let’s just get this sorted and worry about party politics afterwards.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

This.

 

[Weststander]

100% agree with you.

The Brexit vote was a free vote not along any party lines. What I find so frustrating is Corbyn trying to use the divisions to get the Labour Party into power. Brexit is an individual view not a party and MPs should not be whipped.

Let’s just get this sorted and worry about party politics afterwards.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Excellent post.

Playing politics, with the national interest a distant second.

 

[amexer]

To be fair to [MENTION=1416]Ernest[/MENTION], he called time on 'the Corbyn experiment" some time ago. I'm not sure who he supports now however.

Have we heard from Ernest as to why he has changed his mind about Corbyn

 

[Bold Seagull]

100% agree with you.

The Brexit vote was a free vote not along any party lines. What I find so frustrating is Corbyn trying to use the divisions to get the Labour Party into power. Brexit is an individual view not a party and MPs should not be whipped.

Let’s just get this sorted and worry about party politics afterwards.

Why is this aimed at Labour, when the Government has played party politics, desperately trying to stay in power the whole time on this issue? And yet it's the opposition you make this post about party politics in trying to get into power - yes, they're in opposition to a government who is doing everything to stay in power and shape Brexit into something that attempts to retain some idea of party unity for them, not the country.

Why is it incumbent on Corbyn to make it a free vote for the opposition when it should be in response to what the Government does? If May made it a free vote, I could understand you calling Labour out on it, but why would the opposition instruct a feree vote if the Government hasn't done?

The divisions in Labour are nothing compared to what is happening inside the Tory party, and yet the press turn 3 or 4 backbench Labour remain/centrist MPs talking about a split into a massive story.

 

[jasetheace]

Labour got 40% of the vote at the last General Election, one of the highest in our history. We'd have won if Scottish Labour hadn't been so useless (advocating people vote Tory against the SNP for instance)
We have the biggest membership of any party in Europe. If there is a new style SDP that will split the vote and keep the Tories in for ever in the first past the post system, which is what some of you want, isn't it? Just be honest and stop trying to be all 'moderate' and 'reasonable'
It's ludicrous to say we have 'stolen' the party - the centrists borrowed it, we've got it back!
I do find the right wing bias on NSC amusing given that we have wiped the floor with the Tories in all the local seats and even my local East Worthing and Shoreham is now a marginal. I guess it's that old chestnut, 'age'. Never understood people becoming less radical as they get older, surely we should respond to what we see around us, and what I see is division, poverty, homelessness, complacency on one hand, misery on the other........

Anti-Semites and Brexit Facilitators. There is often just a fag paper between extreme right and extreme left.

 

[attila]

Anti-Semites and Brexit Facilitators. There is often just a fag paper between extreme right and extreme left.

Honestly. I could rise to that, but I'm not even going to go there. No wonder I don't bother with politics much on here. I'll stick to football.

 

[Bold Seagull]

We must have a country which has 40% plus of the population as thick and evil according to the left-wing posters on here. One thing I’ve noticed is that the left-wing seem to need to continually attack the moral character of voters who see a different way to run the country. That says more about them than those who vote Tory as they have to attack the person and not the argument.

I'm sorry larus, but if you cannot see how the left is attacked in equal measure, plus by an almost entirely centre / centre-right press, then you are not capable of objective judgement on this. Yes, I don't disagree with your sentiment because it does happen, but the shoe fits the other foot and them some. Politics does engender polarised views, but you're choosing to label an entire side and base your sentiment to all their voters like they're all same - so essentially doing eactly the same thing as you're criticising.

I get you don't like your political choice being labelled as it is by some from the left, just the same I don't like the arrogant sneering my own views get from the right. However, I don't think that is everyone, blimey, both my parents have voted Tory all their lives, and neither is morally corrupt, thick, uncaring or anything else.

You left-wing posters really need to wake-up and accept that the country is not left-wing. There has not been a ‘left-wing’ government since the 1970’s, so you’ve been out of power for 40 years. (Bliar was never really left-wing as generally accepted on here). The last Left-Wing general election win was in Oct 1974.

I mean, you start this post on the generalised labelling of Tory voters from the left, then start your next paragraph labelling all left wing posters as one, can you not see the hypocrisy?

Until 2 years ago, I had no idea the majority of the country was anti-EU. Just because we haven't doesn't mean we shouldn't or won't. I would imagine the GE2017 was a wake up call in an expected rout of Corbyn's politics which turned into a government needing to pay a minor party just to stay in power.

Regarding why do so many people become less radical as they get older - they grow up and see that there world is not some kind of utopia. It’s not perfect and they see the failure of many left-wing/communist countries around the world and realise that, even with the many issues with capitalism (which moderate conservative voters would readily accept), it is far better than communism/Marxism. Who’d want to live in N Korea, Russia, China, Venezuela?

You have more when you're older, we take less risks. That is a fact, not just in politics, but in our career choices, our life choices. As your point above, socialism to many seems a risk because it is unknown. However, what has 40 or 50 years of centrist politics bought us? Recession free economies? Balance between rich and poor? Equality and shared opportunity? You use extreme examples, and yet a short flight away, the Nordic countries, with education systems the envy of the world, have high levels of progressive taxation, investment in state, and stable successful economies.

Corbyn's Manifesto has been compared as being almost entirely similar to the Norwedian Labour Party that has enjoyed steady economic success in government for many years. In fact, Corbyn would be seen as maintstream typical politician in Norway. Would you not want to live in Norway, or a Nordic country?

And yes, why isn’t Corbyn/Labour streets ahead in the opinion polls? I would be viewed as a likely Tory voter and I think that May is disasterous (not just because of Brexit) and I would not be inclined to vote for her. But Corbyn leads a divided party, only leader due to the momentum members (i.e. the more extreme/vocal left-wingers) and they have tried to sit on the fence throughout the whole Brexit debacle but, IMO, this has shown them to be weak and playing party politics with the most important issue for a generation.
Incumbent parties are nearly always behind in the polls as they have to make decisions which invariably annoys one group or another. But even with this, and dealing with the after effects of austerity due to the financial crisis (which happened on Labours watch), Corbyn is still behind.

As recent elections and the referendum showed us, the traditional poling models are struggling to cope with social media trends and how young voters engage in politics. You cannot ignore that the youth vote moved to Labour in massive numbers that polls simply cannot cope with. If the polls had been correct in 2017, we'd have a Brexit deal signed sealed and delivered because the Tories would have enjoyed a majority to cancel out their rebels.

The traditional labour heartlands are better educated now and have better job opportunities than 40 years ago, so the influence/power of the unions has waned, so the guaranteed seats from the industrialised areas are shrinking. There are less manual jobs in heavy industry/coal mining etc. and more in services. More people go to university etc so have greater aspiration.

Labour votes are shrinking are they?:
1997 (win) 13m votes
2001 (win) 11m votes
2005 (win) 9.5m votes
2010 (loss) 9m votes
2015 (loss) 9m votes
2017 (loss) 13m votes

Now I am no maths graduate, and I know it didn't translate to a win, but those figures don't look like a shrinking vote to me, in fact Corbyn's politics got the same votes Blair got in '97!

I agree the demographic of a Labour voter might have changed, but 'shrinking' vote, not sure how true that is. What the next election will hinge on of course, is post Brexit, where will the new voters and undecided go. Polls at the moment are polarised over this 1 issue.

However, the Tories are not in a much better place, but this may come down to the continuing erosion of trust between the voters and the politicians. If Brexit is thwarted, there will be repercussions for this, as many on the left and right will no longer want to vote for the traditional parties where politicians think they can override the will of the people as expressed in a plebiscite.

And finally you manage an almost reluctant critique of the government in 3 lines which led us to this position. Almost a footnote in your political diatribe. How balanced.

 

[Weststander]

Why is this aimed at Labour, when the Government has played party politics, desperately trying to stay in power the whole time on this issue? And yet it's the opposition you make this post about party politics in trying to get into power - yes, they're in opposition to a government who is doing everything to stay in power and shape Brexit into something that attempts to retain some idea of party unity for them, not the country.

Why is it incumbent on Corbyn to make it a free vote for the opposition when it should be in response to what the Government does? If May made it a free vote, I could understand you calling Labour out on it, but why would the opposition instruct a feree vote if the Government hasn't done?

The divisions in Labour are nothing compared to what is happening inside the Tory party, and yet the press turn 3 or 4 backbench Labour remain/centrist MPs talking about a split into a massive story.

The media have been obsessed with internal Tory divisions for two or three years now. The coverage has been wall to wall. It can only be paranoia to think the opposite. You only have to turn on any news or visit any new website, and it's been full on.

 

[Bozza]

Labour votes are shrinking are they?:
1997 (win) 13m votes
2001 (win) 11m votes
2005 (win) 9.5m votes
2010 (loss) 9m votes
2015 (loss) 9m votes
2017 (loss) 13m votes

You could make almost any point you like out of the voting stats over the last 20 years. The Tory vote has increased over each of the last four elections. There's more of a trend there, whereas Corbyn's result looks somewhat of an outlier.

1997 9.6m
2001 8.3m
2005 8.8m
2010 10.7m
2015 11.3m
2017 13.6m

With the Lib Dem vote collapsing and UKIP emerging and disappearing over that period, it's not easy to draw too many conclusions just looking at these numbers in isolation.

 

[Weststander]

You could make almost any point you like out of the voting stats over the last 20 years. The Tory vote has increased over each of the last four elections. There's more of a trend there, whereas Corbyn's result looks somewhat of an outlier.

1997 9.6m
2001 8.3m
2005 8.8m
2010 10.7m
2015 11.3m
2017 13.6m

With the Lib Dem vote collapsing and UKIP emerging and disappearing over that period, it's not easy to draw too many conclusions just looking at these numbers in isolation.

With the collapse of the UKIP vote (single issue party, job kind of done), the Tories and Labour have mopped up most of the English and Welsh electorate. The only threat to that is Vince Cable's LibDem's, but Corbyn is trying to engineer an image that he is amenable to the EU.

 

[Bold Seagull]

You could make almost any point you like out of the voting stats over the last 20 years. The Tory vote has increased over each of the last four elections. There's more of a trend there, whereas Corbyn's result looks somewhat of an outlier.

With the Lib Dem vote collapsing and UKIP emerging and disappearing over that period, it's not easy to draw too many conclusions just looking at these numbers in isolation.

1997 9.6m
2001 8.3m
2005 8.8m
2010 10.7m
2015 11.3m
2017 13.6m

I wasn't making a point, I merely offered a question to the statement that Labour's vote was shrinking.

 

[jasetheace]

Funny, l've always felt NSC has a rather noisy left wing bias. It's sneery stuff like your post that continues to make Labour so unappealing to so many.

Spot on. Attila rather conveniently doesn't have an opinion on Brexit facilitation by Corbyn and sidesteps Anti-Semitism altogether. I suspect what he fears the most is not a right wing bias but a centrist, pragmatist rump.

 

[Miserable Les]

It's ludicrous to say we have 'stolen' the party - the centrists borrowed it, we've got it back!

It is indeed ludicrous to say the left have stolen the party, but it's equally ludicrous to say the centrists borrowed it and you've got it back. The Labour Party has always been a very broad church, no one faction can or should try to claim it, and every time one faction does it drives another nail into the party's electoral coffin.

 

[The Spanish]

It is indeed ludicrous to say the left have stolen the party, but it's equally ludicrous to say the centrists borrowed it and you've got it back. The Labour Party has always been a very broad church, no one faction can or should try to claim it, and every time one faction does it drives another nail into the party's electoral coffin.

agree to a point but the centrists (as a faction) taking control did not really drive a nail into the party's electoral coffin, far from it. Of course they would have always walked Brighton with its grim manufacturing history of making candy floss, and the devastation wrought by the deindustrialisation when bingo calling on the seafront went electronic, but they did certainly help labour become electable in more marginal seats like former mining towns.

Both major parties are broad churches, both a blessing and a curse for British politics.

 

[Miserable Les]

agree to a point but the centrists (as a faction) taking control did not really drive a nail into the parties electoral coffin, far from it.

Both major parties are broad churches, both a blessing and a curse for British politics.

That was certainly true for a time, but it was always going to be an issue in the longer term electorally, especially considering how far 'right' the centrists went in Labour terms in some aspects of policy and style. There was bound to be a backlash from the left eventually, and one that would lose as many voters as it would gain, leading potentially to either a distinct change of direction or the break-up of the party.

Agree re; the Conservative Party being a broad church too, and the blessing and curse aspect in both cases.

 

[Ernest]

Funny how the Tories are torn apart over Europe and idiots say Labour is about to split , no MP will leave Labour as that’s the end of their political career and Umunna , Berger , Leslie etc know this . Far more Tories like half the cabinet have said they’ll quit but the NSC looney brigade more worried about some fantasy than what is actually happening

 

[Weststander]

Funny how the Tories are torn apart over Europe and idiots say Labour is about to split , no MP will leave Labour as that’s the end of their political career and Umunna , Berger , Leslie etc know this . Far more Tories like half the cabinet have said they’ll quit but the NSC looney brigade more worried about some fantasy than what is actually happening

You’re right - MP’s won’t voluntarily leave Labour. The SDP experiment shows that after one general election, you’re consigned to the political wilderness. Tory and Labour MP’s both know full well that staying part of popular parties, allows them to keep hold of all the perks, the pension, relative fame (most politicians have large ego’s) and to maintain a tiny influence on policy.

 

[Miserable Les]

You’re right - MP’s won’t voluntarily leave Labour. The SDP experiment shows that after one general election, you’re consigned to the political wilderness. Tory and Labour MP’s both know full well that staying part of popular parties, allows them to keep hold of all the perks, the pension, relative fame (most politicians have large ego’s) and to maintain a tiny influence on policy.

I would tend to agree in more normal times, as were the times when the SDP was born, but the big difference this time around is Brexit of course. If there were enough serious MPs considering a break-away broadly centrist, pro-EU, progressive party that could become a serious challenge, gaining enough support from the growing moderate 'dispossessed' electorate, then that is a very different proposition to the position in the 1980s. It would be a huge gamble but one that would have a better chance of eventually getting into power or holding the balance of power than the SDP experiment.

 

[Bold Seagull]

I would tend to agree in more normal times, as were the times when the SDP was born, but the big difference this time around is Brexit of course. If there were enough serious MPs considering a break-away broadly centrist, pro-EU, progressive party that could become a serious challenge, gaining enough support from the growing moderate 'dispossessed' electorate, then that is a very different proposition to the position in the 1980s. It would be a huge gamble but one that would have a better chance of eventually getting into power or holding the balance of power than the SDP experiment.

You may as well just rebrand the Lib Dems than go to the trouble of creating a new party.