[News] MPs defecting to The Independent Group in parliament

[Weststander]

A lot of people voted Labour in the 2017 general election because Corbyn said, he voted Remain. By then, people were already beginning to see the Tories had no idea what they were actually doing, but it came as a shock to some people that he wasn't going to oppose it.
Even at the last Labour party conference, it was voted to campaign for a second vote on the EU, but they've reneged on that. Corbyn is enabling a right wing coup. He even went to talk to May without his Brexit secretary Keir Starmer, who is a decent bloke.

[MENTION=14365]Thunder Bolt[/MENTION], I know you love the EU, and I recall that you love the French people from all your time spent in France (I voted Remain too).

A genuine question, do you realise that Corbyn, McDonnell and several key union leaders are passionately lifelong opponents of the EU? It’s complete myth that the hard left love the EU because it gave the UK employee rights. They oppose the raison d’etre of the EU on two very clear counts:

1. It is a capitalist club that favours big business and business owners, more than any other grouping. The shareholders of BMW and Bosch have gained so much more than the poor.
2. Freedom of labour movement, means a race to the bottom in wages and rates for the self employed in trades. Why employ Brits, where Romanians will gladly accept lower pay? Why get Brits to carry out your home extension, where Poles will do it far cheaper?

I’m amazed by the number of JC and EU lovers, including arrogant young voters/sixth formers, who simply cannot grasp the fact that JC and McDonnell are vehemently anti EU. However, JC’s snide and insincere game of the last 2 years in playing to both Remainers and Brextiteers has deliberately muddied the waters.

 

[Lower West Stander]

40 % of those who voted in 2017 election did vote for a Labour Party led by the demonized and derided Jeremy Cornyn, standing on a distinctively left of centre manifesto. Rather than lazy labelling (extreme, far left, loony etc), could anti Labour/Cornyn porters tell us which Labour policies they disagree with?

I’d like my pension to retain some value.....


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

 

[Southern Scouse]

40 % of those who voted in 2017 election did vote for a Labour Party led by the demonized and derided Jeremy Cornyn, standing on a distinctively left of centre manifesto. Rather than lazy labelling (extreme, far left, loony etc), could anti Labour/Cornyn porters tell us which Labour policies they disagree with?

Not interested is numbers, states, etc. I’m a simple man, who believes in simple values. I consider myself, basically a socialist. What does that mean to me? It means having opportunities in life to build futures for yourself, your family as well as making sure that every individual who may not be able to make the most of those opportunities lives in dignity and is trusted with respect.
That means, housing, education, standards of living, health care etc which should be available to one and all. If certain parts of society are able to spend more on their own choices, so be it.
Socialism to me, means giving everyone from the bottom up a fair and decent way of life, with opportunities to improve. That may mean my socialism is different to yours.
Simply put, I do not trust JC or momentum. That’s it, probably based on ignorance, but when I look at Jeremy I see a man I could never trust.
To me, it’s as simple as that.

 

[drew]

We must have a country which has 40% plus of the population as thick and evil according to the left-wing posters on here. One thing I’ve noticed is that the left-wing seem to need to continually attack the moral character of voters who see a different way to run the country. That says more about them than those who vote Tory as they have to attack the person and not the argument.

You left-wing posters really need to wake-up and accept that the country is not left-wing. There has not been a ‘left-wing’ government since the 1970’s, so you’ve been out of power for 40 years. (Bliar was never really left-wing as generally accepted on here). The last Left-Wing general election win was in Oct 1974.

Regarding why do so many people become less radical as they get older - they grow up and see that there world is not some kind of utopia. It’s not perfect and they see the failure of many left-wing/communist countries around the world and realise that, even with the many issues with capitalism (which moderate conservative voters would readily accept), it is far better than communism/Marxism. Who’d want to live in N Korea, Russia, China, Venezuela?

And yes, why isn’t Corbyn/Labour streets ahead in the opinion polls? I would be viewed as a likely Tory voter and I think that May is disasterous (not just because of Brexit) and I would not be inclined to vote for her. But Corbyn leads a divided party, only leader due to the momentum members (i.e. the more extreme/vocal left-wingers) and they have tried to sit on the fence throughout the whole Brexit debacle but, IMO, this has shown them to be weak and playing party politics with the most important issue for a generation.
Incumbent parties are nearly always behind in the polls as they have to make decisions which invariably annoys one group or another. But even with this, and dealing with the after effects of austerity due to the financial crisis (which happened on Labours watch), Corbyn is still behind.

The traditional labour heartlands are better educated now and have better job opportunities than 40 years ago, so the influence/power of the unions has waned, so the guaranteed seats from the industrialised areas are shrinking. There are less manual jobs in heavy industry/coal mining etc. and more in services. More people go to university etc so have greater aspiration.

However, the Tories are not in a much better place, but this may come down to the continuing erosion of trust between the voters and the politicians. If Brexit is thwarted, there will be repercussions for this, as many on the left and right will no longer want to vote for the traditional parties where politicians think they can override the will of the people as expressed in a plebiscite.

Really, was Wilson that far to the left? I would suggest that he wasn't much further left than Blair it's just that after Callaghan, the party lurched to the left under Foot.

 

[Weststander]

Really, was Wilson that far to the left? I would suggest that he wasn't much further left than Blair it's just that after Callaghan, the party lurched to the left under Foot.

Exactly, with hindsight, Wilson/Callaghan/Kinnock/Smith/Blair/Brown, were all what we’d now call social democrats. With one nuance of some very high marginal tax rates under tax rates under Wilson/Callaghan, ludicrously so and not a myth. Something Kinnock onwards did not repeat in policies.

 

[drew]

Exactly, with hindsight, Wilson/Callaghan/Kinnock/Smith/Blair/Brown, were all what we’d now call social democrats. With one nuance of some very high marginal tax rates under tax rates under Wilson/Callaghan, ludicrously so and not a myth. Something Kinnock onwards did not repeat in policies.

Those 98% rates were on unearned income though, ie dividends and interest but the headline rate does the trick for the Tories.

 

[larus]

Really, was Wilson that far to the left? I would suggest that he wasn't much further left than Blair it's just that after Callaghan, the party lurched to the left under Foot.

Open to debate, but more left-wing than Bliar is quite clear. Bliar was a pseudo-Tory IMO. Closely aligned to business etc., and tolerated the unions but tried to weaken their influence.

 

[drew]

Regarding why do so many people become less radical as they get older - they grow up and see that there world is not some kind of utopia. It’s not perfect and they see the failure of many left-wing/communist countries around the world and realise that, even with the many issues with capitalism (which moderate conservative voters would readily accept), it is far better than communism/Marxism. Who’d want to live in N Korea, Russia, China, Venezuela?

Really, I would suggest it is more due to selfish reasons, ie that as you grow older you tend to acquire property and therefore you want to protect that and your income. The obvious choice is not to vote for a party that, historically, errs towards higher taxation. The reality is that you vote for the party that reduces the influence of the state and, ergo, lowers taxation and then you have the pleasure of watching the disintegration of society! The property you were trying to protect is now vulnerable because of the lack of police to respond to burglaries etc. Still, you have more money in your pocket so all's well that ends well.

 

[larus]

Really, I would suggest it is more due to selfish reasons, ie that as you grow older you tend to acquire property and therefore you want to protect that and your income. The obvious choice is not to vote for a party that, historically, errs towards higher taxation. The reality is that you vote for the party that reduces the influence of the state and, ergo, lowers taxation and then you have the pleasure of watching the disintegration of society! The property you were trying to protect is now vulnerable because of the lack of police to respond to burglaries etc. Still, you have more money in your pocket so all's well that ends well.

OK, you’re entitled to your opinion. I disagree with everything that you say - people who vote Tory still want good public services but are not so hung up about “it must be in the public sector/no private companies involved”. I want good services at the best price (value for money). Just throwing money at public services is not value for money but is such an easy wish for left-wing voters.

Spend more, spend more, spend more. Left wingers would rather spend £20k on an op done in the NHS compared to spending £15k on the same op in a private hospital - purely out of principle.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

You were doing so well until you showed your colours.

I'd say the same if on a tory thread someone said all politicians are crooks (in such a case calling out a devoted labour activist for trying to disillusion honest conservatives).

 

[attila]

I repeat - we got 40% of the vote at the last election. The only reason we didn't win was because
a) the Scottish Labour Party fcked up big time
b) the Lib Dem lot were so crap at splitting the Tory vote.
We got more or less exactly the same vote share than Blair got.
We won CANTERBURY, to name one ridiculous swing. There were countless more, and many where we came very close. We reduced the Tory majority by 10,000 votes in East Worthing and Shoreham under 'unelectable' Corbyn, and have councillors in Worthing for the first time in 40 years under this MONSTER We obliterated the Tories in Kemptown and Hove. There is more committment and energy in the Labour Party than in all the others put together.
If we ditched Corbyn and went back to the centrist days our membership would drop by two thirds, campaigning strength would be decimated, our vote share would drop dramatically. Hardly any of us would campaign for 'New Labour' policies: many of us, including me after the Gulf War, didn't even vote Labour again until Corbyn won.
I honestly don't know what goes on on NSC to make you lot so bloody CONSERVATIVE that you won't accept simple numbers. 40% of the vote is not 'unelectable' - countless elections have been won with less under our ridiculous electoral system. I don't know what you're going on about..
That's why I don't argue politics much on here. Simple logic doesn't seem to be enough.
Hey, you're entitled to your views, and we all love the Albion. But please don't use the phrase 'loony leftie'. It was invented by Murdoch, it's lazy, it's meaningless. You can do better than that

 

[Sussex Nomad]

40 % of those who voted in 2017 election did vote for a Labour Party led by the demonized and derided Jeremy Cornyn, standing on a distinctively left of centre manifesto. Rather than lazy labelling (extreme, far left, loony etc), could anti Labour/Cornyn porters tell us which Labour policies they disagree with?

But never forget how he kept himself in charge of the labour party. He opened up the membership to his loony leftie supporters who, like sheep, with no intelligence, voted en masse for the idiot, thus keeping the tories the only viable party to vote for, even reds voted tory to keep him out. Unelectable and untrustworthy power crazy typical politician. It's all about them, they do remember the British public occasionally, when it matters to them.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Precisely, nobody knows, he is just what we need as an alternative voice. I call on the lefties to tell me his policy on the EU and Brexit. Ernest? You seem to be a staunch red, what is his idea of a beautiful Brexit?

He's not a staunch lefty. He's a troll. FFS.

You seem to jump to conclusions about the heart and soul of NSC posters rather naively easily

 

[Sussex Nomad]

You seem to jump to conclusions about the heart and soul of NSC posters rather naively easily

Huh?

 

[Sussex Nomad]

I repeat - we got 40% of the vote at the last election. The only reason we didn't win was because
a) the Scottish Labour Party fcked up big time
b) the Lib Dem lot were so crap at splitting the Tory vote.
We got more or less exactly the same vote share than Blair got.
We won CANTERBURY, to name one ridiculous swing. There were countless more, and many where we came very close. We reduced the Tory majority by 10,000 votes in East Worthing and Shoreham under 'unelectable' Corbyn, and have councillors in Worthing for the first time in 40 years under this MONSTER We obliterated the Tories in Kemptown and Hove. There is more committment and energy in the Labour Party than in all the others put together.
If we ditched Corbyn and went back to the centrist days our membership would drop by two thirds, campaigning strength would be decimated, our vote share would drop dramatically. Hardly any of us would campaign for 'New Labour' policies: many of us, including me after the Gulf War, didn't even vote Labour again until Corbyn won.
I honestly don't know what goes on on NSC to make you lot so bloody CONSERVATIVE that you won't accept simple numbers. 40% of the vote is not 'unelectable' - countless elections have been won with less under our ridiculous electoral system. I don't know what you're going on about..
That's why I don't argue politics much on here. Simple logic doesn't seem to be enough.
Hey, you're entitled to your views, and we all love the Albion. But please don't use the phrase 'loony leftie'. It was invented by Murdoch, it's lazy, it's meaningless. You can do better than that

So you lost then.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

But never forget how he kept himself in charge of the labour party. He opened up the membership to his loony leftie supporters who, like sheep, with no intelligence, voted en masse for the idiot, thus keeping the tories the only viable party to vote for, even reds voted tory to keep him out. Unelectable and untrustworthy power crazy typical politician. It's all about them, they do remember the British public occasionally, when it matters to them.

You were doing quite well (C+) up to there (although I have some other comments to make later).

He has a lifetime track record of showing no ambition, and a complete unwillingness to do the first basic thing necessary to climb the ladder of power, that is vote with his own party, while at the same time alligning himself with causes that offend middle of the road labour supporters (like me).

I said earlier you either advocate anarchy, or you are a liar (making false statements that you think will disillusion labour voters). I have had another think about this and now feel that you are simply a bit of a twit.

 

[beorhthelm]

Not interested is numbers, states, etc. I’m a simple man, who believes in simple values. I consider myself, basically a socialist. What does that mean to me? It means having opportunities in life to build futures for yourself, your family as well as making sure that every individual who may not be able to make the most of those opportunities lives in dignity and is trusted with respect.
That means, housing, education, standards of living, health care etc which should be available to one and all. If certain parts of society are able to spend more on their own choices, so be it.
Socialism to me, means giving everyone from the bottom up a fair and decent way of life, with opportunities to improve. That may mean my socialism is different to yours.
Simply put, I do not trust JC or momentum. That’s it, probably based on ignorance, but when I look at Jeremy I see a man I could never trust.
To me, it’s as simple as that.

psst, that sounds an awful lot like one nation conservatism, and without mention of state control and ownership, redistribution of wealth etc, unlike socialism. its interesting how people identify politically and what they believe in differs from definitions of ideologies.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

But never forget how he kept himself in charge of the labour party. He opened up the membership to his loony leftie supporters1 who, like sheep, with no intelligence, voted en masse2 for the idiot, thus keeping the tories the only viable party to vote for, even reds voted tory to keep him out. Unelectable and untrustworthy power crazy typical politician3. It's all about them, they do remember the British public occasionally, when it matters to them.

1, no that was a predecessor. What you wrote there is false, or 100% total bollocks. The predecessor changed the system to give the membership undue influence in the college. The hard bit was getting a maverick on the ballot paper. This was achieved by gormless labour MPs who thought it would be 'nice' to have a loony lefty (and I have no problem with this description of Corbyn) on the ballot paper to make it nice and fair, like ('we always interview a black and a gay person, but of course we don't offer them the job - ha ha), withouth realising how the college works.

2. That's patronizing. They voted for him because they see him as someone who will pursue a left agenda. You may not agree with it (I don't) but the supporters are not jelly brains, just because you disagree with them.

3 I addressed that drivel earlier.

Look, it is very sad that Corbyn had made labour unelectable. I feel your pain, I really do. Or your gloating. Yes, it is probably gloating. But, shhhh now, eh?

 

[Chicken Run]

I repeat - we got 40% of the vote at the last election. The only reason we didn't win was because
a) the Scottish Labour Party fcked up big time
b) the Lib Dem lot were so crap at splitting the Tory vote.
We got more or less exactly the same vote share than Blair got.
We won CANTERBURY, to name one ridiculous swing. There were countless more, and many where we came very close. We reduced the Tory majority by 10,000 votes in East Worthing and Shoreham under 'unelectable' Corbyn, and have councillors in Worthing for the first time in 40 years under this MONSTER We obliterated the Tories in Kemptown and Hove. There is more committment and energy in the Labour Party than in all the others put together.
If we ditched Corbyn and went back to the centrist days our membership would drop by two thirds, campaigning strength would be decimated, our vote share would drop dramatically. Hardly any of us would campaign for 'New Labour' policies: many of us, including me after the Gulf War, didn't even vote Labour again until Corbyn won.
I honestly don't know what goes on on NSC to make you lot so bloody CONSERVATIVE that you won't accept simple numbers. 40% of the vote is not 'unelectable' - countless elections have been won with less under our ridiculous electoral system. I don't know what you're going on about..
That's why I don't argue politics much on here. Simple logic doesn't seem to be enough.
Hey, you're entitled to your views, and we all love the Albion. But please don't use the phrase 'loony leftie'. It was invented by Murdoch, it's lazy, it's meaningless. You can do better than that

2017 GE results
Conservative Party made a net loss of 13 seats with 42.4% of the vote (its highest share of the vote since 1983), whilst Labour made a net gain of 30 seats with 40.0%

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Huh?

You seem to think that Ernest and I are loony lefty bedfellows. I find that very strange. Lazy minded. Prejudiced, actually. Offensive in fact. As for the other fellah, he's on my 'ignore' list