[News] MMR, Vaccinate or not.

[The Mole]

There is no probably about it. It is false. Unfortunately, social media has played a part in spreading false fears.

For every one child who isn't vaccinated, they can infect 15 others. I survived measles when I was 6 but many children weren't so lucky. Vaccinations wiped out smallpox, and measles should not be a worry nowadays.
Many Mums think it is a childhood disease, but it can cause blindness, deafness, meningitis and encephalitis, and death.
Please please please vaccinate your children.

My sister had either meningitis, encephalitis or mumps (the village GPs couldn’t make an accurate diagnosis) as a baby and the trauma triggered autism. I despair when children aren’t vaccinated.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I'm not sure why there's all the comparisons to fake news, social media etc. This was published in the Lancet so you can surely forgive people at the time for being a bit worried

Not if you know how the Lancet does peer review. I met Richard Horton at an editor's meeting some years ago. He told me they have a 'hanging committee' that meets each Friday (probably after a pleasant lunch) where papers are discussed. A decision is taken normally to reject or to publish. This is based primarily on interest.

FFS. This assumes tacit expertise. This is the biggest error in peer review. The questions to ask are 90% about hypothesis and experimental design. Even proper science journals (Lancet is medicine) are poor at interrogating design and analysis. Blinded, randomized, well-powered, proper use of ANOVA and due consideration of multiple comparisons.....

This paper stank to high heaven and the conclusions were absurd, and borderline criminal in their implication.

Happy to chat further PM, but not on here.

 

[Me and my Monkey]

If I remember correctly this point of view is also fake news.
I believe there is a tipping point of percentage of the population at which vaccines become fully effective.
I think the percentage varies per disease, but is in the region of 80 -90%

Individuals choosing not to vaccinate do not effect the overall immunity. as long as it's a minority position.

It depends how many individuals “choose” not to. There will never be 100% uptake as sadly some children for one reason or another simply cannot have the vaccine. It is often those who are most vulnerable to disease already. So the selfish/misinformed/stupid parents of healthy children who opt out for whatever selfish/stupid/misinformed reason are actively putting other people’s children at risk. I think it is Norway where vaccinations are compulsory, with an unsurprising consequence of having practically wiped out some of the common childhood diseases in their population.

 

[darkwolf666]

Thalidomide is still prescribed for treatment of cancer and some forms of leprosy. It is not given to pregnant women now for obvious reasons.

My point was scientists CAN and do get things wrong. People’s minds will be made up by their own perceptions.

 

[Diablo]

In My Opinion people who refuse to vaccinate their kids are idiots.

Did you vaccinate you kids ? ........ I`d leave it to the professionals

 

[Uh_huh_him]

It depends how many individuals “choose” not to. There will never be 100% uptake as sadly some children for one reason or another simply cannot have the vaccine. It is often those who are most vulnerable to disease already. So the selfish/misinformed/stupid parents of healthy children who opt out for whatever selfish/stupid/misinformed reason are actively putting other people’s children at risk. I think it is Norway where vaccinations are compulsory, with an unsurprising consequence of having practically wiped out some of the common childhood diseases in their population.

I took a choice not to vaccinate my second child, because whether misinformed or selfish, I felt there was a genuinely higher risk in her case.
There is a big difference between a generalisation of "we should all do this" and "I might damage my child if I do this"
I accept now that it was a wrong headed choice. But it didn't feel like that at the time.

 

[Uh_huh_him]

And that is the point. If you tell 100% of the people that only 90% need comply, fewer than 90% will. I wouldn't.

Where I work, if we are told we don't have to do something but it would be nice if we did, we don't. Far too many things to do that we absolutely have to do.

So, far from fake news.

Yeah I get that point, but your earlier statement was that parents who don't vaccinate should be prosecuted.
I didn't vaccinate my 2nd child as I had grave reservations at the time as believed my daughter to be at a higher risk from the vaccination.
I made a personal choice, that I did not wish to take that risk.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Yeah I get that point, but your earlier statement was that parents who don't vaccinate should be prosecuted.
I didn't vaccinate my 2nd child as I had grave reservations at the time as believed my daughter to be at a higher risk from the vaccination.
I made a personal choice, that I did not wish to take that risk.

When was that? Being misinformed is an excuse. However, not today. We should make a law of it now. Getting beyond a joke. Being misinformed and making a wrong call is fine, but when the evidence has been published . . . .

 

[One Love]

When was that? Being misinformed is an excuse. However, not today. We should make a law of it now. Getting beyond a joke. Being misinformed and making a wrong call is fine, but when the evidence has been published . . . .

What about the people who don't trust the evidence, unfortunately there is a lot of them about.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

What about the people who don't trust the evidence, unfortunately there is a lot of them about.

There are a lot of people who think they drive better after a few beers, **** them. What about the rest of us, who lose the benefit of herd immunity via vaccination (or some **** running over a child on a zebra crossing - another artifice they choose to dismiss)?

Make laws and enforce. Or - we should do FFS. We seem to have forgotten about that in our rush to whatever name you wish to call our current cluster**** of pathetic plan-free governance.

 

[Me and my Monkey]

What about the people who don't trust the evidence, unfortunately there is a lot of them about.

It's odd though, isn't it, that some people would rather believe the "evidence" they've trawled up from some dodgy Google searching, telling them vaccinations are dangerous, and then ignore the massive, indisputable, global, centuries old, in yer face evidence that the diseases they protect against pose REAL danger to their children. Bonkers. I've met many of these parents, you can usually spot them a mile off.

 

[heathgate]

The alleged risk has comprehensively trashed by huge numbers of specialists in the field and needs to be challenged at every opportunity. Its the very definition of fake news. The large increases in measals cases is a very worrying fact. Many people do not realise just how dangerous it can be.

The original study was of 12 patients, all of whom had autism already, and some showed measles traces in their bowel... so the article was presented as conclusive proof of the linkage... now completely discredited.

Do vaccinate, don't risk endangering others.

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[Notters]

There are a lot of people who think they drive better after a few beers, **** them. What about the rest of us, who lose the benefit of herd immunity via vaccination (or some **** running over a child on a zebra crossing - another artifice they choose to dismiss)?

Make laws and enforce. Or - we should do FFS. We seem to have forgotten about that in our rush to whatever name you wish to call our current cluster**** of pathetic plan-free governance.

It doesn't help when the government very publicly ignore their own experts like David Nutt.

 

[supaseagull]

In My Opinion people who refuse to vaccinate their kids are idiots.

Pretty much spot on


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[OzMike]

We had all three done, it didn't effect the two girls, but I would say that my son changed.
It is not like he became totally disabled or anything, he just changed, didn't seem to be as happy as he was before.
He is doing well in an engineering apprenticeship and all, but there were slight changes at the time in his temperament and decision making, the wife commented on this as well.
He went from always being cheerfull to having a few moody spells and being a bit defiant.

 

[SollysLeftFoot]

MMR is now inextricably linked with inducing autism. Proven to be false, probably, but there's patently huge numbers of parents out there not willing to take the risk.

[Citation needed]

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

[Citation needed]

The Lancet published Andrew Wakefield's fraudulent paper linking MMR to autism in 1998. It didn't fully retract the claims until 2010 when Wakefield was struck off. According to wikipedia, as recently as 2015 Wakefield was continuing to affirm his now discredited claims. Any parent googling MMR is highly likely to see the word autism jump out of the page at them. The bloke's done a huge amount of damage, aided and abetted by The Lancet's original publication that was hugely seized on by the media.

 

[SollysLeftFoot]

The Lancet published Andrew Wakefield's fraudulent paper linking MMR to autism in 1998. It didn't fully retract the claims until 2010 when Wakefield was struck off. According to wikipedia, as recently as 2015 Wakefield was continuing to affirm his now discredited claims.

So... no meta analysis of academic papers researching the subject using statistical analysis..?

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

So... no meta analysis of academic papers researching the subject using statistical analysis..?

It would have been useful if The Lancet had done that in 1998 before publishing the paper.

 

[zefarelly]

But the governement are devoid of experts, they're were outlawed some years back.

as an engineer, I love science, and I like good hard facts. very few things in life are 100%, but 90% is plenty good enough in the case of vaccinations.

It doesn't help when the government very publicly ignore their own experts like David Nutt.