Miners Strike

[Castello]

I suspect many more people hate blair for taking us into a war we should not be in

to be honest I see blair as the natural consequence of thatcherism. one is not worse nor better than the other. They are the same system responding to different circumstances. Whicxh is why I wont vote for any of the 3 main parties. same story with a different colour badge.

 

[Castello]

I can accept that mining coal in this country was at some point going to become unviable. However, just letting them close as Thatcher did is an absolutely shit example of macro economic management. Closing down the mines cost thousands their jobs. Which in turn cost thousands more their livelihoods in lost income at shops that no longer had miner customers. Which in turn closes down businesses. And how much money does it all cost? Well, for a start, there is the loss in tax revenue from all of these sources, then the fact that benefits start needing to be paid to out of work miners. Plus crime soars as unemployment rises, and we all know what the miner's strike did to community relations with the police.

And then the fact that it costs a lot of money to re-start up any small business after predecessors have gone to the wall. It's the same argument as what we're seeing now. If we slash public expenditure on everything, we risk our future. Say, road maintenance is slashed: all those pot hole filling companies go to the wall. Then when we decide to spend the money fixing the roads, we have no-one to fix them because our pot-holers have all gone bust - so we have to import pot hole filling services. So closing down anything on a large scale is folly.

Our nation would have been better off with a staggered plan of mine closure, where mines were closed as new investment (and jobs) were attracted into those communities. Simply subsidising our coal mining in the interim would have been far more cost effective than just washing our hands of the whole industry.

This was clearly the rational response to the whole issue of the pit closures and I remember many on the left at the time arguing for investment in the communities affected to regenerate them and alleviate the worst effects of an aging industry coming to an end.

The irony was as whole mining communities were being decimated with no investment made for the future, right next to these communities billions of pounds in agricultural subsidies were being spent to build up food mountains that were being left to rot to avoid destroying rural communities.

One only has to look at the voting behaviour of the two communities to guess why that happened.

 

[Beach Hut]

Thanks everyone for your fine compliments, been enjoyable debating this

 

[Lethargic]

The problem is not what she did, but the spped and how she did it. The mines were not as economically viable and cuts were inevitable, but the legacy exists today because Thatcher's Government failed miserably to help people retrain and learn new skills to access new jobs. Geoffrey Howe virtually admitted that they screwed up recently. As part of my job A few years back, I visite dmany of the old mining communities and they are riven with generational unemployment, kids being born into families who have never worked because mining was all they knew. The Last Labour Government tried to inject money into these regions to help them retrain and set up businesses and access jobs, but they also failed.

Can't be bothered to read the whole thread but this is a good summary I think it was inevitable that the closures had to be done but it was the way it was rushed through and then the egotistical battle that scargill engaged where he had no consideration for the actual miners. The whole episode was inevitable but the way it was done and the aftermath was a disgrace and for that thatcher is ultimately responsible.

 

[Seagull on the wing]

There was no need to call a ballot , the resolution to take industrial action had been passed at NUM conference where the delegates had been instructed which way to vote by rank and file branch members.

That sums it up perfectly...'where the delegates had been instructed which way to vote'..no free choice then.
I was working at Hoo power station with 22 other contract welders/fitters when there was a mass influx of miners from Bettshanger,within a week ,with their restricted working practices...being told by their Union boss to slow everything down so the job would last and the slightest reason...ie puddle on floor...everyone out...wet conditions...the contractors were forced out. The unions had far to much power and were strangling production.

 

[El Presidente]

Off course you have no interest you just want me to agree with you which I don't.

Everybody clearly love labour for entering a war on a lie and also forcing the country into a huge recession - what a wonderful life they have given us all

He was not the only PM to take us into an unnecessary war recently.

 

[El Presidente]

The intent is there. The delivery, ain't.

Has this turned into another CMS thread?

 

[El Presidente]

Unions simply do not work, the inadvertently closed the mines. Why you may ask do I say that Unions do not work especially in the case of the miners - Unions constantly want more pay for workers (they often wrap it up under "working conditions" saying more pay is needed as they are bad) which drives up the price of production and break even points, the price then goes too far above what is in the market, which in turn drives demand elsewhere.

I personally do not think that Unions as they stand work, and in the case of Scargill he pretty much became a dictator, when many workers wanted to continue to mine he turned his following sheep against them and used terms such as "Scabs" to tarnish them.

I am in a union as a chartered accountant, as is my next door neighbour, who is a doctor in the BMA. We both do extremely well in monetary terms from membership of the union, as do those people that we provide services for.

 

[Hornblower]

Well, that was interesting. I love you all because you are fellow Brighton fans, but being an unashamed lefty I stick by my original comments whilst accepting that there are many on here who disagree. There are too many posters on this thread who I agree with to name but I would single out Simster as having put up the best post from my viewpoint.

There are also too many posts that I find abhorant and illinformed, particularly in respect of the formation of the the breakaway unions involving the Notts miners. These actions were orchestrated by David Hart at Thatchers behest, preying on a Notts mining workforce that earnestly (and as it turned out falsely) believed that they were immune to the closures as their pit was still productive. MI5 taped all of the NUM meetings and had a mole high up in the NUM. Police forces were bussed in from other communities to ensure that they felt no compunction when instructed to go in hard and covert squads of ex NI operatives fitted up the strikers with vile actions against
those miners who broke the strike.

Most of all I find the comments about unions disappointing. Those of you who believe that unions are redundant should take a look at the Justice For Columbia website to see how vital unions can be and how dangerous it is to be a union official.

Now, anyone for "is Barnes good enough?"

 

[Dick Knights Mumm]

Hornblower old fruit - it was the geology.

 

[Hornblower]

Hornblower old fruit - it was the geology.

Cheers DKM, you are partly right.

 

[beorhthelm]

I am in a union as a chartered accountant, as is my next door neighbour, who is a doctor in the BMA. We both do extremely well in monetary terms from membership of the union, as do those people that we provide services for.

maybe wakeytom should have said "industrial, militant" unions. he's right, in the sence that Unions actions in the best interests of their members can end up damaging or killing the industry they are in. Miners stikes aside, one reason they got to the point of being unproductive was decades of resistance to mechanisation and modernisation. by the time they did adopt alternative practices it was too late. though of course that might have meant they just exhuasted mines decades earlier. another example is the US car industry where some absurd percentage of the price of a car is going to fund the pensions of long retired workers. great for them, not great for the cities turned to waste lands as the companies offshore everything to be able to cut costs inorder to make some profit. a few cases aside, companies or organisations do not exist to provide employment, they exist to make a product and/or to make money or provide a service. employment is incidental, a means to one of those ends. once upon a time the typical miner would have wished for their sons to do something, anything else other than work down a tough, dirty, dangerous pit. if the opportunity arose they would get out of the mines, i know my family did a couple of generations ago.

 

[jakarta]

I am in a union as a chartered accountant, as is my next door neighbour, who is a doctor in the BMA. We both do extremely well in monetary terms from membership of the union, as do those people that we provide services for.

Which Union is that then - when do you collectively bargain with your employer and when did you last take Industrial Action?

 

[mr sheen]

Good to see recent events unfold involving the UDM leadership, Thatcherite heros showing their true colours!

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

That sums it up perfectly...'where the delegates had been instructed which way to vote'..no free choice then.
I was working at Hoo power station with 22 other contract welders/fitters when there was a mass influx of miners from Bettshanger,within a week ,with their restricted working practices...being told by their Union boss to slow everything down so the job would last and the slightest reason...ie puddle on floor...everyone out...wet conditions...the contractors were forced out. The unions had far to much power and were strangling production.

Union members would have democratically voted on resolutions at branch level , the branch delegate then has to vote as instructed by the membership (they can't act independently on behalf of the members they represent) at Conference or AGM.

 

[Hornblower]

Union members would have democratically voted on resolutions at branch level , the branch delegate then has to vote as instructed by the membership (they can't act independently on behalf of the members they represent) at Conference or AGM.

This

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

So you admit it was poor leadership by Scargill in not calling a ballot in the first place.... and also, I presume by you not denying that there was a split in his union that not all members (in fact a lot) were behind his (or his NUM conference) to call such an all out strike.

As a staunch trade union rep in the 1980's I would have to say that Scargill made a fatal error in not calling for a ballot as it would have re-affirmed the NUM Conference decision. The result of the ballot would have seen a 80%+ YES vote for industrial action. Industrial action isn't all about an all out strike , it can be used by the union as a negotiating tool. Instead of going on strike there are options of overtime bans and working to the correct procedure. We now know in hindsight that Nottinghamshire miners were told that local pit closures would be minimised if they kept working and the brunt of closures would be concentrated in Yorkshire.

 

[Castello]

Union members would have democratically voted on resolutions at branch level , the branch delegate then has to vote as instructed by the membership (they can't act independently on behalf of the members they represent) at Conference or AGM.

to be fair whilst as a life long trade union activist i fully understand and even agree in principle with the form of democracy your discussing, the problem is in reality it means that those who turn up to meetings decide policy affecting thousands. This is fine if we had widespread shop floor involvement, as we had when unions first were formed, but now it means that those who turn up are for the most part activists. The alternative is to have ballots which are expensive and limits debate on the real issue in a dispute. it does however have more widespread participation. Neither system is perfect.

However whichever system we were to choose, some people will always criticise trade unions simply because we advocate power lying with the workers who form the majority of people in this country, rather than the privately educated, who form the majority of MPs in this country.

 

[seagullsovergrimsby]

to be fair whilst as a life long trade union activist i fully understand and even agree in principle with the form of democracy your discussing, the problem is in reality it means that those who turn up to meetings decide policy affecting thousands. This is fine if we had widespread shop floor involvement, as we had when unions first were formed, but now it means that those who turn up are for the most part activists. The alternative is to have ballots which are expensive and limits debate on the real issue in a dispute. it does however have more widespread participation. Neither system is perfect.

However whichever system we were to choose, some people will always criticise trade unions simply because we advocate power lying with the workers who form the majority of people in this country, rather than the privately educated, who form the majority of MPs in this country.

When I was in the CWU , really important matters affecting the membership would be debated at a general branch meeting where 95% would turn up. Nowadays it seems to be only the activists would participate and postal ballots don't have the same effect as considering all the aspects.

 

[BadFish]

There is no way on Gods earth that Blair is hated as much as Thatcher in this country. Absolutely no way.

One ruined lots of lives and communities at home. The other was complicit in the mass murder of people and the destruction of communities in a land(s) far away.

Why do we have to choose one to hate over the others? They are both self serving scum leading parties full of other self serving scum. Hobson's choice if you ask me.