[Albion] Midfield goal production and the striker myth

[Swansman]

Tony Cascarino in The Times today on a similar vain:



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...e-to-give-chelsea-a-fighting-chance-khh7stm3j

Indeed. Pretty much my point as well - people let Maupay carry the dogs head, when its clearly a team issue.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

Perhaps the debate shouldn’t be either/or the midfield and forwards. Doesn’t matter where goals come from but in our team it’s from nowhere and that includes the defence. Time after time we send tall centre backs up for corners and they head over the bar. The wing backs also rarely contribute. There just isn’t a goal scorer anywhere in the squad in any position. Scary.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

But if we are consistently not scoring half chances, why is our tactical style seemingly based around creating a lot of them? Surely, if this is a deficiency in the squad's ability, then we should have come up with a solution rather than simply hoping our luck will change.

We are also creating and missing full on straightforward chances. Connolly’s on Saturday being the latest.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

We are also creating and missing full on straightforward chances. Connolly’s on Saturday being the latest.

Not forgetting Maupay’s effort in the first half that nearly went for a throw in.


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[One Teddy Maybank]

Indeed. Pretty much my point as well - people let Maupay carry the dogs head, when its clearly a team issue.

But the team are creating chances, and not an inconsiderable number.

Of course it would be helpful if the midfield came through, but we lack quality up front....


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[Swansman]

But the team are creating chances, and not an inconsiderable number.

Of course it would be helpful if the midfield came through, but we lack quality up front....


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Lack quality in all the attacking positions - wingers, attacking midfielders, strikers.

 

[blue-shifted]

Lack quality in all the attacking positions - wingers, attacking midfielders, strikers.

No

The midfielders are doing their primary job, getting the better of the opposition midfield, very well

But we could just keep going round in circles

 

[Swansman]

No

The midfielders are doing their primary job, getting the better of the opposition midfield, very well

But we could just keep going round in circles

Well the attacking wingers and attacking midfielders of other teams seem to have "score some goals" in their job description so I dont really see why it would be different here.

Their primary job is to help the team win, which includes scoring goals.

Indeed we'll only go in circles though, we'll never agree on this one. I do wonder how much of a promotion to the PL Brighton would have got if the midfielders pretty much only did their "primary job" (according to who by the way?) in 2015/16 instead of scoring 33 of the teams 72 goals in the Championship.

 

[Eric Youngs Contact Lens]

Not forgetting Maupay’s effort in the first half that nearly went for a throw in.


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Out of interest - Maupay's effort was one of three similar chances that I saw at the weekend. The others being Lingard and Stones in the lunchtime kick off. Both in the City/West Ham game led to goals.. only one because it was well finished - John Stones'. Lingards effort was similarly struck, I think going wide, and Antonio is following up. John Stones' is great technique. The difference in all of these is the ball in to the player, or rather the pace on it and the space they find themselves in. For Maupay, the ideal finish in retrospect (I think) is to hit high and straighter, however, he moves towards the ball and consequently has less time to get adjusted for the strike - gets a poor connection - similar to Lingard I think. John Stones was in more space, less movement from him and pace on the balI and gets a sweet connection. I am not arguing that Maupay couldn't have done better, but that it was harder than maybe it looks.

 

[Beanstalk]

We are also creating and missing full on straightforward chances. Connolly’s on Saturday being the latest.

But as per my OP we are not really, at least not at the same rate. The stats say that last month we missed 4 easier chances and 2 penalties (2/8 = a 25% conversion rate). We missed 51 harder chances out of 52 (a 1.9% conversion rate).

 

[Pavilionaire]

Its not "all about having that striker". Two of the players you mentioned (Salah and Mane) are wingers, who these days (often along with the AMC) are frequently scoring more goals than the striker/strikers (in their case Firmino, replaced by Origi when necessary). Maupay may very well reach Firminos goal tally from last season, but the the Brighton wingers wont beat the Liverpool wingers.

I think you're being pedantic here because both Salah and Mane frequently take up central positions, and Salah has been prolific at making runs through the centre and converting one on one chances.

If Mane and Salah were primarily wingers then a joint output of 6 assists this season is poor.

 

[One Teddy Maybank]

Lack quality in all the attacking positions - wingers, attacking midfielders, strikers.

It’s interesting though because Gross who was a no.10 in his first season, was excellent there. Arriving late etc., and chipped in with goals and assists.

Do we have any pure wingers any more?
?Izquierdo....


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[One Teddy Maybank]

Out of interest - Maupay's effort was one of three similar chances that I saw at the weekend. The others being Lingard and Stones in the lunchtime kick off. Both in the City/West Ham game led to goals.. only one because it was well finished - John Stones'. Lingards effort was similarly struck, I think going wide, and Antonio is following up. John Stones' is great technique. The difference in all of these is the ball in to the player, or rather the pace on it and the space they find themselves in. For Maupay, the ideal finish in retrospect (I think) is to hit high and straighter, however, he moves towards the ball and consequently has less time to get adjusted for the strike - gets a poor connection - similar to Lingard I think. John Stones was in more space, less movement from him and pace on the balI and gets a sweet connection. I am not arguing that Maupay couldn't have done better, but that it was harder than maybe it looks.

It wasn’t that hard. Sorry [emoji2]

He could even have let it come across his body for his left foot and it would have been straighter.....

I’m afraid it’s an ability/quality thing.....

All of that said, the game has always been easier in the stand.....


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[Swansman]

I think you're being pedantic here because both Salah and Mane frequently take up central positions, and Salah has been prolific at making runs through the centre and converting one on one chances.

If Mane and Salah were primarily wingers then a joint output of 6 assists this season is poor.

They are still wingers. They spend most of the time on the pitch on the wings. Indeed they (especially Salah) are doing dangerous runs down through the centre and that is pretty much one of my points in this thread: Brighton do not have dangerous wingers / attacking midfielders, and this is one of the main problems. Brighton got the (poor mans) Firmino-esque striker, but not the Salah-esque winger. Its not really pedantics, its different roles/positions:

Firmino (striker - false nine)


Maupay (striker - false nine)


Salah (mf/fw - inside forward/inverted winger)

 

[warmleyseagull]

Indeed. Pretty much my point as well - people let Maupay carry the dogs head, when its clearly a team issue.

You make a good point, one that I thought was true but you have added evidence. So the issue is why? Are midfielders not getting in box (Stephens and Propper issue); getting in box but not taking Xg positions either because build up is too slow so defenders in position or they are just not aware enough; or are team-mates not assisting enough, either in quantity or quality?

 

[perseus]

You make a good point, one that I thought was true but you have added evidence. So the issue is why? Are midfielders not getting in box (Stephens and Propper issue); getting in box but not taking Xg positions either because build up is too slow so defenders in position or they are just not aware enough; or are team-mates not assisting enough, either in quantity or quality?

Lack of shooting technique applies to some/all of 12 players chances fell to in the last two games.

 

[Swansman]

Time to return to this one as the boys have now played one less game than when I made this thread in 2021.

Died on a hill defending Maupay, not great.

Was one of few who thought goals from midfield/wings was a massive issue that had to be resolved if the team was going to rise in the table, got that one right.

Production from Brighton strikers this season in the PL: Evan Ferguson 3, Danny Welbeck 2, Deniz Undav 0, Julio Enciso 0. Six goals less than Maupay, Connolly and Welbeck. I'm not going through all teams again but I'm guessing Brighton are among the bottom 3 in PL when it comes to striker goals.

Production from midfielders/wingers: March 7, Mac Allister 7, Trossard 7 - though one or two may have come from the striker role - Mitoma 6, Gross 6, Lallana 2, Caicedo 1.

37 goals from midfield in the Premier League. That is 30 goals more than at a very similar stage in 2020/21. Without checking, this must be above everyone else by a big fat f***ing margin and most likely the best record in any decent league in Europe.

Extraordinary stuff. If you also take the final fourth of the last season (midfield and wingers scored 10 goals in the final 8 games) - without Mitoma - the numbers turn even more insane. Long may it continue.

 

[warmleyseagull]

Tony Cascarino in The Times today on a similar vain:



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/...e-to-give-chelsea-a-fighting-chance-khh7stm3j

This is worth a reread in light of subsequent events. Eat your own BS, TC.

 

[warmleyseagull]

Time to return to this one as the boys have now played one less game than when I made this thread in 2021.

Died on a hill defending Maupay, not great.

Was one of few who thought goals from midfield/wings was a massive issue that had to be resolved if the team was going to rise in the table, got that one right.

Production from Brighton strikers this season in the PL: Evan Ferguson 3, Danny Welbeck 2, Deniz Undav 0, Julio Enciso 0. Six goals less than Maupay, Connolly and Welbeck. I'm not going through all teams again but I'm guessing Brighton are among the bottom 3 in PL when it comes to striker goals.

Production from midfielders/wingers: March 7, Mac Allister 7, Trossard 7 - though one or two may have come from the striker role - Mitoma 6, Gross 6, Lallana 2, Caicedo 1.

37 goals from midfield in the Premier League. That is 30 goals more than at a very similar stage in 2020/21. Without checking, this must be above everyone else by a big fat f***ing margin and most likely the best record in any decent league in Europe.

Extraordinary stuff. If you also take the final fourth of the last season (midfield and wingers scored 10 goals in the final 8 games) - without Mitoma - the numbers turn even more insane. Long may it continue.

In two words: Caicedo factor.

 

[Wardy's twin]

Time to return to this one as the boys have now played one less game than when I made this thread in 2021.

Died on a hill defending Maupay, not great.

Was one of few who thought goals from midfield/wings was a massive issue that had to be resolved if the team was going to rise in the table, got that one right.

Production from Brighton strikers this season in the PL: Evan Ferguson 3, Danny Welbeck 2, Deniz Undav 0, Julio Enciso 0. Six goals less than Maupay, Connolly and Welbeck. I'm not going through all teams again but I'm guessing Brighton are among the bottom 3 in PL when it comes to striker goals.

Production from midfielders/wingers: March 7, Mac Allister 7, Trossard 7 - though one or two may have come from the striker role - Mitoma 6, Gross 6, Lallana 2, Caicedo 1.

37 goals from midfield in the Premier League. That is 30 goals more than at a very similar stage in 2020/21. Without checking, this must be above everyone else by a big fat f***ing margin and most likely the best record in any decent league in Europe.

Extraordinary stuff. If you also take the final fourth of the last season (midfield and wingers scored 10 goals in the final 8 games) - without Mitoma - the numbers turn even more insane. Long may it continue.

I really don't think we should get fixated by the 'he's a striker , he's a winger , he's a midfielder' discussion. We play very fluid football whereby players are more confident to assume roles dynamically as the play dictates , they can do this because they are very good footballers. Saying that I am not sure what a striker is in modern football, it implies someone whose only job is to score goals , not sure the modern game (well our game) wants that sort of player. Mac, March, Mitoma have all scored more than some 'official' strikers Equally Ferguson plays very deep not just holding the ball up but play making same as Undav. Ferguson has not played many games and has 3 and will score more. To me this flexibility is a sign of a great team.