[News] Middle East conflict

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

I have been to Israel as you have and but have also studied law with Israel students for 3 years and theology - but unlike you, I grew up in a Jewish family surrounded by Jewish friends with both grandparents Holocaust survivors - I am Jewish so please don’t lecture me on Judaistic theology - I grew up with this stuff ffs and experience it daily in my life.

Your characterisation of the Jewish people believing in a ‘vengeful God, not a nice one’ is frankly antisemitic especially when you try and conflate that with the reason Palestine people are being subjected to torture, terror, mass punishments and starvation.

If any of the Jewish people, secular or otherwise, feel revengeful of Hamas’s attacks over the decades, it is because they are human and they have lost loved ones primarily in the IDF because of decades of conflict…the massacre in particular understandably triggered a major military response (as did 9/11) but that has nothing to do with Judaism.

Taking revenge is prohibited in Judaism

https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1842551/jewish/What-Does-Judaism-Say-About-Taking-Revenge.htm#:~:text=Taking%2520revenge%2520is%2520prohibited%2520in%2520Judaism.&text=Rather%252C%2520Maimonides%2520continues%252C%2520if%2520someone,%E2%80%9D(7%253A5).

I am glad you had human interaction by those Jewish people you met btw.

Anyway, all this is doing is turning the discussion away from what is important here: the shocking videos posted above of those poor kids lying in the dust on a war torn Gazan street. It’s horrific and I agree that Hamas is equally responsible in failing to agree to a precipitous peaceful end to this conflict as is Netanyahu.

Big f*cking surprise there. You clearly still have access to their database of links to defeat each and every argument. Well done (world's slowest )

I probably learned more about Israel in my sadly all-too-brief visits than you learnt in your 3 year echo chamber

 

[Zeberdi]

Big f*cking surprise there. You clearly still have access to their database of links to defeat each and every argument. Well done (world's slowest )

I probably learned more about Israel in my sadly all-too-brief visits than you learnt in your 3 year echo chamber

its nothing to do with knowledge or links - you cant possibly know what it is like to experience antisemitism - you are not Jewish so don’t have that perspective - anymore than I can know what it is to experience the racism Black people feel - I don’t have a right to claim I know their experiences nor do others have a right to presume how I should feel when faced with antisemitism.

You implying that Israel is attacking Gaza because Jews worship a ‘vengeful god and not a nice one’ is an attack on Judaism and I have a problem with that however you want to phrase it.

Tbh I have recently received private messages accusing me of condoning genocide because I have expressed support for Labour/Starmer on this website and not come out against in favour of Palestinians enough..

Im not engaging in the debate anymore - it is far too polarised and people just flinging mud at each other is getting really boring.

As @Guiness Boy said months ago on this thread, you can’t win the internet.

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

its nothing to do with knowledge or links - you cant possibly know what it is like to experience antisemitism - you are not Jewish so don’t have that perspective - anymore than I can know what it is to experience the racism Black people feel - I don’t have a right to claim I know their experiences nor do others have a right to presume how I should feel when faced with antisemitism.

You implying that Israel is attacking Gaza because Jews worship a ‘vengeful god and not a nice one’ is an attack on Judaism and I have a problem with that however you want to phrase it.

Tbh I have recently received private messages accusing me of condoning genocide because I have expressed support for Labour/Starmer on this website and not come out against in favour of Palestinians enough..

Im not engaging in the debate anymore - it is far too polarised and people just flinging mud at each other is getting really boring.

As @Guiness Boy said months ago on this thread, you can’t win the internet.

I wish you peace

 

[armchairclubber]

Looks peaceful to me. Met Police seem to be enjoying the occasion.

 

[chickens]

Is anyone else listening to the ICJ right now? Israel not coming out of it well atm.

Edit: spelt out in black and white that Israel is in breach of international law.

 

[:J)]

 

[armchairclubber]

Israel has been given carte blanche by the international community, by the UK and US particularly, to kill unprecedented numbers of civilians with complete impunity.

Please write to your MP calling on them to support Zarah Sultana's Amendment C to the King's Speech which calls on the new government to immediately suspend export licences for arms transfers to Israel.

CAAT - Call on your MP Stop Arming Israel King’s Speech Amendment

Campaign Against Arms Trade

caat.org.uk

 

[borat]

Israel has been given carte blanche by the international community, by the UK and US particularly, to kill unprecedented numbers of civilians with complete impunity.

Please write to your MP calling on them to support Zarah Sultana's Amendment C to the King's Speech which calls on the new government to immediately suspend export licences for arms transfers to Israel.

CAAT - Call on your MP Stop Arming Israel King’s Speech Amendment

Campaign Against Arms Trade

caat.org.uk

Thanks for highlighting

 

[armchairclubber]

Is anyone else listening to the ICJ right now? Israel not coming out of it well atm.

Edit: spelt out in black and white that Israel is in breach of international law.

How do you feel about the UK Labour Government policy not abiding by that International Law since assuming office and since its ruling?

 

[chickens]

How do you feel about the UK Labour Government policy not abiding by that International Law since assuming office and since its ruling?

Largely uninterested. As a financially dependent yet unofficial territory of the United States, we’ll follow America’s lead on all major foreign policy decisions, as we always have. There is not an electable political party out there offering any different.

Whether Con/Lab/Lib/Green or Reform, any attempt at deviating meaningfully from the path set by America would doubtless bring swift diplomatic and financial consequences. We will abide by the decision America makes, it’s for Washington to determine the next steps.

 

[armchairclubber]

Largely uninterested. As a financially dependent yet unofficial territory of the United States, we’ll follow America’s lead on all major foreign policy decisions, as we always have. There is not an electable political party out there offering any different.

Whether Con/Lab/Lib/Green or Reform, any attempt at deviating meaningfully from the path set by America would doubtless bring swift diplomatic and financial consequences. We will abide by the decision America makes, it’s for Washington to determine the next steps.

Having seen a few of your posts I was trying to understand your stance and I now do, so thanks for your reply.

I do think that just as you have highlighted earlier on this thread that Israel have been found to be in breach of International Law, it is important for all nations to abide by International Law and for the Highest Court (ICJ) to remain impartial.
Otherwise there's not a lot of point in having International Law!

Particularly when more powerful nations can or could be aiding and abetting lesser so nations (or other scenarios, not exhaustive) in committing major crimes against humanity and standing to gain benefit financially or with other strategic interests (as in proxy wars)

Now that would surely be an impractical and not impartial system of Law to keep in place if it were not so.

And perhaps it proves so. Even with the ICJ looking to have been impartial with their findings, the UK has fallen short of abiding by them.

Should the UK not be held to account?

To summarise I think the UK should be abiding by the decision the ICJ has made, and not that America (or Israel) makes. No excuses.

Thanks for your time.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

As for Israel - I don’t know how many times it needs to be said on this thread but most of the Jews living in Israel are either secular with no religious belief or don’t practice their faith

OK, time for a stupid question. If someone has no religious beliefs - we'll use your example here - how can they be Jewish ? Judaism is a religion/belief not a race. It's no different to me being brought up by Christian parents - I don't believe in God etc and don't call myself a Christian - in fact I'm an agnostic turned atheist.

 

[chickens]

Having seen a few of your posts I was trying to understand your stance and I now do, so thanks for your reply.

I do think that just as you have highlighted earlier on this thread that Israel have been found to be in breach of International Law, it is important for all nations to abide by International Law and for the Highest Court (ICJ) to remain impartial.
Otherwise there's not a lot of point in having International Law!

Particularly when more powerful nations can or could be aiding and abetting lesser so nations (or other scenarios, not exhaustive) in committing major crimes against humanity and standing to gain benefit financially or with other strategic interests (as in proxy wars)

Now that would surely be an impractical and not impartial system of Law to keep in place if it were not so.

And perhaps it proves so. Even with the ICJ looking to have been impartial with their findings, the UK has fallen short of abiding by them.

Should the UK not be held to account?

To summarise I think the UK should be abiding by the decision the ICJ has made, and not that America (or Israel) makes. No excuses.

Thanks for your time.

You are most welcome. FWIW, I too would prefer that all nations follow international law. However, America (to be fair like other nations when decisions don’t go their way) have a tendency to look after their own interests and claim (e.g.) that they don’t recognize the court’s validity to rule in this matter.

Soft power is still power, we won't be picking a fight with the US any time soon. When America changes course, Britain will do so too. It’s that simple.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Israel has been given carte blanche by the international community, by the UK and US particularly, to kill unprecedented numbers of civilians with complete impunity.

Please write to your MP calling on them to support Zarah Sultana's Amendment C to the King's Speech which calls on the new government to immediately suspend export licences for arms transfers to Israel.

CAAT - Call on your MP Stop Arming Israel King’s Speech Amendment

Campaign Against Arms Trade

caat.org.uk

I will but my MP is Peter Kyle who is the vice chair for the Labour Friends of Israel which suggests to me he will just ignore me.

 

[aolstudios]

OK, time for a stupid question. If someone has no religious beliefs - we'll use your example here - how can they be Jewish ? Judaism is a religion/belief not a race. It's no different to me being brought up by Christian parents - I don't believe in God etc and don't call myself a Christian - in fact I'm an agnostic turned atheist.

Jewish is a race *&* a religion.
An ethno religion.
Lack of belief does not cause a Jew not to be Jewish.
Even Hitler knew that, ffs

 

[armchairclubber]

You are most welcome. FWIW, I too would prefer that all nations follow international law. However, America (to be fair like other nations when decisions don’t go their way) have a tendency to look after their own interests and claim (e.g.) that they don’t recognize the court’s validity to rule in this matter.

Exactly.

Soft power is still power, we won't be picking a fight with the US any time soon. When America changes course, Britain will do so too. It’s that simple.

I think where we differ is that I don't think it should or necessarily would be seen as picking a fight with America for the UK to abide by International Law.

Other Nations have done so such as Spain. Explaining that they will not hold a hypocritical international position over wars and Human Rights in Ukraine and Palestine.

If there would be some economic concerns for the UK in stopping or reducing its arms sales or other sanctions then that would be more than acceptable to me over the UKs continued support of war offences by Israel.

 

[Zeberdi]

OK, time for a stupid question. If someone has no religious beliefs - we'll use your example here - how can they be Jewish ? Judaism is a religion/belief not a race. It's no different to me being brought up by Christian parents - I don't believe in God etc and don't call myself a Christian - in fact I'm an agnostic turned atheist.

Yes, ‘Judaism’ is a ‘religion/belief not a race’ but being Jewish is a distinct identity separate from that and is NOT a religion.

I’ve posted much on this thread about the demographic make up of Israeli Jews which is diverse and consists of various religious sub-groups but the majority of the population of Jews in Israel are secular (ie non-religious).

The one thing Jews don’t agree on though, is how to identify themselves as a group because there is little homogeneity.

So if being Jewish isn’t a religion, what is it? Describing Jews as a ‘race’ is problematic for many Jews - not least because defining Jews as a ‘race’ was the basis upon which Hitler exterminated 6 million Jews as being “racially impure”. There is some legitimate question as to whether Jews are a ‘race’ anyway given the global diversity of Jews in different cultures. Jews are an incredibly diasporic people (ie globally scattered outside Palestine) and even amongst themselves there is no shared understanding of what Jews are - A people? A nation? A race? A culture? An Ethnicity?

Personally, I identify with the ‘culture and ethnicity’ aspect of a Jewish identity, specifically Ashkenazi, the population of Eastern Jews but on a broader level, part of the ‘People of Israel’. Even though I may not regard ‘Jews’ as a ‘race’, there are genetic traits that identify me as a direct offspring of Ashkenazi - I recently had genetic testing for certain cancer risks a few months back because Ashkenazi Jews in particular often carry a gene fault that places them at very high risks for certain cancers compared to non-Jewish people - so perhaps the ‘racial’ element is in the biological ancestry but to describe Jews as a ‘race’ is considered very problematic for Jews in a post-Holocaust world.

Suffice to say, conflating the Jewish identity with Judaism cancels out millions of Jews worldwide and those in Israel who do not adhere to religious practice.

3. Identity

Overwhelmingly, Jews in Israel feel a strong sense of belonging to the Jewish people and are proud to be Jewish. Fully 93% of Jews say they are proud of

www.pewresearch.org

TL;DR
Being Jewish and Judaism are entirely different things, only the latter being a religion - but apart from that, don’t bother, it’s complicated.

 

[chickens]

Exactly.



I think where we differ is that I don't think it should or necessarily would be seen as picking a fight with America for the UK to abide by International Law.

Other Nations have done so such as Spain. Explaining that they will not hold a hypocritical international position over wars and Human Rights in Ukraine and Palestine.

If there would be some economic concerns for the UK in stopping or reducing its arms sales or other sanctions then that would be more than acceptable to me over the UKs continued support of war offences by Israel.

Our arms sales to Israel are negligible.

US 65.6%
Germany 29.7%
Italy 4.7%

Is how Israel arms itself. Your stance on this is rather like blaming Macron for the Russia/Ukraine conflict, or the Dalai Lama for tensions in Kashmir, it’s logically incoherent and frankly baffling.

For the first time in over a decade we have adults in government. Our country has many pressing needs, not least putting out the bin fires set by our Conservative chums.

You and those of your ilk effectively seem to want to stand on the decks of H.M.S. Britain with icebergs looming, claiming that our top and immediate priority should be discovering the fate of the crew of the Mary Celeste. Most on the ship would prefer we dodge the icebergs.

If the US changes course, we will change course with them, but I’d be hugely surprised if we stepped out of sync with America on this, and this should absolutely not be the focus of the British government. Israel has an elected government, and Palestine has done nothing to usurp Hamas’s leadership, so I have to assume Hamas rules with the consent of its people. Should it not, then its geographically close neighbours should be assisting them. Western involvement in regime change rarely ends well.

In the same way that I wouldn’t wade into the middle of a boundary dispute between two individuals I don’t know, our government’s focus should be domestic first, international second.

Spain is not beholden to the US for its financial and military security in the same way that the UK is. The EU is a powerful trading bloc that we have isolated ourselves from. America, for us, is the only game in town. We are committed to our role as Scrappy Doo to America’s Scooby as a result of our political choices.

I’m not going to engage on this subject any more, I feel we understand each other’s position and where we disagree.

 

[rippleman]

Our arms sales to Israel are negligible.

US 65.6%
Germany 29.7%
Italy 4.7%

Is how Israel arms itself. Your stance on this is rather like blaming Macron for the Russia/Ukraine conflict, or the Dalai Lama for tensions in Kashmir, it’s logically incoherent and frankly baffling.

For the first time in over a decade we have adults in government. Our country has many pressing needs, not least putting out the bin fires set by our Conservative chums.

You and those of your ilk effectively seem to want to stand on the decks of H.M.S. Britain with icebergs looming, claiming that our top and immediate priority should be discovering the fate of the crew of the Mary Celeste. Most on the ship would prefer we dodge the icebergs.

If the US changes course, we will change course with them, but I’d be hugely surprised if we stepped out of sync with America on this, and this should absolutely not be the focus of the British government. Israel has an elected government, and Palestine has done nothing to usurp Hamas’s leadership, so I have to assume Hamas rules with the consent of its people. Should it not, then its geographically close neighbours should be assisting them. Western involvement in regime change rarely ends well.

In the same way that I wouldn’t wade into the middle of a boundary dispute between two individuals I don’t know, our government’s focus should be domestic first, international second.

Spain is not beholden to the US for its financial and military security in the same way that the UK is. The EU is a powerful trading bloc that we have isolated ourselves from. America, for us, is the only game in town. We are committed to our role as Scrappy Doo to America’s Scooby as a result of our political choices.

I’m not going to engage on this subject any more, I feel we understand each other’s position and where we disagree.

This would suggest that you would support us stopping the supply of arms to Ukraine with the money saved being spent on our NHS, our schools etc. And that basically we should reduce our overseas aid budget to zero. That's an interesting stance but not one I could get behind. That would be

 

[chickens]

This would suggest that you would support us stopping the supply of arms to Ukraine with the money saved being spent on our NHS, our schools etc. And that basically we should reduce our overseas aid budget to zero. That's an interesting stance but not one I could get behind. That would be
View attachment 185981

Ah, whataboutery.

On the contrary, one conflict is in Europe, with a clear aggressor, and a threat to European stability.

The Israel/Gaza conflict takes place in a different geopolitical region, with dual aggressors, and plenty of nations around able to mediate should both sides wish to mediate.

However, we both know neither do, so until both sides have governments that desire peace, there will be no peace.

in Ukraine, I would hope that we would continue to provide the support that Ukraine asks for until Russia is returned to its pre-annexation of Crimea borders, then an agreement is reached for it to financially compensate Ukraine in a manner that allows Ukraine to rebuild its infrastructure.

A quick glance at a map will tell you that there are many better placed than us to mediate between Israel and Palestine. Ukraine is a sovereign European nation. There’s a significant difference. We should seek stability within our geopolitical bloc.

And while we should absolutely continue to support Ukraine, I still would not want our government’s primary focus to be on it. We have elected a Prime Minister of Britain, I’m happy for our Foreign Secretary to devote considerable resource to Ukraine, but I don’t want our domestic government paralysed by that conflict.