[News] Middle East conflict

[:J)]

So, Hamas rejecting every ceasefire for months deemed not worthy of comment. Israel rejecting just one is stupid.
Still weird

Israel rejecting just one? What about these:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israels-netanyahu-says-no-gaza-ceasefire-until-hostages-returned-2023-11-05/

Netanyahu rules out ceasefire deal that would mean Gaza withdrawal

Israeli PM also says he will not accept any truce that would require release of thousands of Palestinian prisoners

www.theguardian.com

Middle East crisis: Netanyahu rejects Hamas ceasefire proposal and vows to fight until ‘total victory’

Israeli PM says Israel is on its way to a ‘decisive’ victory, adding that it is ‘in our hands … in a matter of months’

www.theguardian.com

and this - which includes a handy timeline of Hamas truce proposals:

How Israel has repeatedly rejected Hamas truce offers

On Sunday, Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu turned down a Hamas offer to end the war. It’s only the latest such instance.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[Zeberdi]

I'm trying to understand your point in bold. How do you propose to do this, with some kind of "opposition" party?

I agree quite rightly that many people have been wanting that for months as well as other possible sanctions.

…the electorate has more power now, this year when both the UK and the US are having GEs that protest can be effective in influencing voting behaviour - at the end of the day, all politicians in a liberal democracy rely on public support - lose that, they become powerless.

Just to revert to this earlier point - Biden admits that US weapons have been used to kill civilians in Gaza. In a move widely seen as Biden not wanting to risk further alienating Democratic supporters (especially the student vote which will be critical in key marginal States) over Israel:

The US confirms;

Arms shipment to Israel that would have been used to further Israel’s ground attack and arial bombardment of Rafah have been ’held’ up and further arms embargoes would go ahead if Israel insists on invading Rafah.

“The weapons being held back by the US are related to a future delivery, so the move is unlikely to have an immediate impact. But given the rate at which Israel is bombing it will probably affect future strikes fairly soon.”

This is significant and welcome development from the US imo and represents a growing amount of clear blue sky between the US and Israel over policy on Gaza in particular Rafah, which is a high density, population centre of over 1.4 million refugees, half of them under 18. This will also keep Hamas at the negotiating table who have said ‘all ceasefire deals are off’ if Israel proceeds with this ground incursion of Rafah.


.

 

[armchairclubber]

Just to revert to this earlier point - Biden admits that US weapons have been used to kill civilians in Gaza. In a move widely seen as Biden not wanting to risk further alienating Democratic supporters (especially the student vote which will be critical in key marginal States) over Israel:

The US confirms;

Arms shipment to Israel that would have been used to further Israel’s ground attack and arial bombardment of Rafah have been ’held’ up and further arms embargoes would go ahead if Israel insists on invading Rafah.

“The weapons being held back by the US are related to a future delivery, so the move is unlikely to have an immediate impact. But given the rate at which Israel is bombing it will probably affect future strikes fairly soon.”

This is significant and welcome development from the US imo and represents a growing amount of clear blue sky between the US and Israel over policy on Gaza in particular Rafah, which is a high density, population centre of over 1.4 million refugees, half of them under 18. This will also keep Hamas at the negotiating table who have said ‘all ceasefire deals are off’ if Israel proceeds with this ground incursion of Rafah.


.

Well this is certainly welcome and significant and some admission by the U.S., if rather too late imo.

I've still not heard of any similar action from the UK government or pressure from opposition front bench to revoke UK arms licences to Israel? Similarly other European nations, it would appear US are actually leading the way in this (admittedly being the major provider)

It would still have been significant imo for other nations to have initiated this policy, or even now to follow suit. It's good to know that protests may have had some influence.

 

[Casper18]

Hate Piers Morgan, but he did well here with this Israeli Government spokesperson

 

[Zeberdi]

Hate Piers Morgan, but he did well here with this Israeli Government spokesperson

Me too but credit where credit is due - fancy the Israeli Government knowing exactly how many terrorists they have killed but no idea of the number of civilian casualties - or they know but aren’t saying. If the IDF is apparently so good at avoiding civilian casualties, then let’s have the number if they are saying Hamas’s figures are false. No journalists allowed into Gaza ( except accompanied by the IDF to selected areas) and spouting complete lies on world media, does Israel really think it is winning the media and PR battle here by continually spouting this bollix ?

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Hate Piers Morgan, but he did well here with this Israeli Government spokesperson

Another non-liker of Morgan but really, how stupid are the Israeli government or more to the point, how stupid do they think the rest of the world really are ?? Utter lies - they KNOW how many CIVILIANS ( Children and Women ) they've murdered but are too cowardly to admit it. I don't have the words to describe my hatred of both the Israeli government and the IDF.

 

[rippleman]

**WORTHING** MARCH IN SUPPORT OF THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE

Tomorrow - Saturday 11 May 11AM

Meet at the Town Hall

 

[Zeberdi]

Wow - extraordinary behaviour in response to the UN voting to give Palestinians more rights

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Wow - extraordinary behaviour in response to the UN voting to give Palestinians more rights

Utter racist pillock ( him, not you ! ). So it's OK to carve the state of Israel out of other states but not to do so for Palestine ? Just shows the true mind set of the Israeli state.

 

[A1X]

We’re watching a nation become a pariah in front of our very eyes, the speed at which this has happened is extraordinary

 

[Machiavelli]

Hamas absolutely do not want a 2 state solution. They want a one state solution, with Jews wiped out. As repeatedly stated

You're absolutely right on this, and it needs to be acknowledged.
But, then again, Israel absolutely don't want a two state solution. They want a one state solution, with Palestinians wiped out. And they're brilliantly effective at it. We're at about 30 to 1 in the current conflagration.
And, back to the one state issue. There is one state. And then there's one that contains a people, but isn't recognised as a state, which explains how they've been utterly humiliated by its neighbour over the past half century and more.

 

[aolstudios]

Utter racist pillock ( him, not you ! ). So it's OK to carve the state of Israel out of other states but not to do so for Palestine ? Just shows the true mind set of the Israeli state.

They did in 1948 & they refused it. Preferring to attempt to wipe out the Jews (they lost). It was offered to Arafat & others several times since. Refused every single time. Mind want to swot up on your history a little

 

[Zeberdi]

They did in 1948 & they refused it. Preferring to attempt to wipe out the Jews (they lost). It was offered to Arafat & others several times since. Refused every single time. Mind want to swot up on your history a little

I think you need to. That’s a very revisionist idea of history you’re posting.

The actual history has been posted numerous times on this thread yet you keep posting erroneous information.

So again;

The Balfour Declaration is widely seen as the precursor to the 1948 Palestinian Nakba when Zionist armed groups, who were trained by the British, forcibly expelled more than 750,000 Palestinians from their homeland. How can people being violently thrown off their land by Jewish terrorists, that they had occupied for centuries, including with access to the River Jordan for fresh water, then be expected to cram into a piece of land the size of greater London that was basically a piece of desert?

Of course the Zionist ‘project’ was not welcomed by the indigenous Palestinians living on the land but they had no equivalent to the leadership that the Jews and British had in order to negotiate themselves a better deal...and they’ve been conceding land ever since with an insidious programme of Jewish settlements making increasing degrees of incursions into Palestinian territory. In 1967, Israel invaded the rest of the Palestinian territory and remains an illegal occupier, keeping Palestinians people under an oppressive form of control which had lead to an humanitarian crisis even before the current war broke out.

Arafat and his PLO was party to the Oslo Accords in 1993, which acknowledged the right of Israel to exist, laid down their arms, were taken off the terror designation and set up the Palestinian Authority with the understanding that Israel would commit to a long term plan for a two State solution and in the meantime, the West Bank (with East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip would be administered by Arafat‘s pro-West ruling parliament. Yitzhak Rabin who brokered the deal with Arafat (and the US) was subsequently assassinated by a far right Religious Zionist who had no wish to see Palestinians being offered Statehood. Netanyahu backed Hamas to control Arafat and the Palestinian Authority so it wouldn’t become too powerful. The rest is history.

 

[borat]

Watched the "Zone of Interest" last night. Incredibly powerful movie and skillfully handled without being gratuitous.

Not equating the Holocaust to what's happening in Gaza but the film really highlights how humans are capable of the most unimaginably atrocious acts if their own indoctrination and also the dehumanisation of "the other" is powerful enough.

 

[aolstudios]

I think you need to. That’s a very revisionist idea of history you’re posting.

The actual history has been posted numerous times on this thread yet you keep posting erroneous information.

So again;

The Balfour Declaration is widely seen as the precursor to the 1948 Palestinian Nakba when Zionist armed groups, who were trained by the British, forcibly expelled more than 750,000 Palestinians from their homeland. How can people being violently thrown off their land by Jewish terrorists, that they had occupied for centuries, including with access to the River Jordan for fresh water, then be expected to cram into a piece of land the size of greater London that was basically a piece of desert?

Of course the Zionist ‘project’ was not welcomed by the indigenous Palestinians living on the land but they had no equivalent to the leadership that the Jews and British had in order to negotiate themselves a better deal...and they’ve been conceding land ever since with an insidious programme of Jewish settlements making increasing degrees of incursions into Palestinian territory. In 1967, Israel invaded the rest of the Palestinian territory and remains an illegal occupier, keeping Palestinians people under an oppressive form of control which had lead to an humanitarian crisis even before the current war broke out.

Arafat and his PLO was party to the Oslo Accords in 1993, which acknowledged the right of Israel to exist, laid down their arms, were taken off the terror designation and set up the Palestinian Authority with the understanding that Israel would commit to a long term plan for a two State solution and in the meantime, the West Bank (with East Jerusalem) and the Gaza Strip would be administered by Arafat‘s pro-West ruling parliament. Yitzhak Rabin who brokered the deal with Arafat (and the US) was subsequently assassinated by a far right Religious Zionist who had no wish to see Palestinians being offered Statehood. Netanyahu backed Hamas to control Arafat and the Palestinian Authority so it wouldn’t become too powerful. The rest is history.

I'd flatter you by saying check your history but this post is full of deliberate ommisions. You're not just mistaken, you're either deeply strange or utterly dishonest about your motivation or even origins. Because of most people's lack of experience of the situation you tend to get away with your endless bizarre epistles on here but I simply don't trust you or even that you believe what you post.
Just to address the first piece of made up bullshit, you're well aware that a two state solution was offered on the creation of Israel, that the Arabs refused it & that the surrounding states immediately attacked, telling the Arabs who lived there to leave & come back when the Jews were eliminated. They lost. Diddums. As they did in 1967. Diddums.
I & several others don't believe what you say & doubt even who you are. No one else has the energy to post as much as you do but it doesn't make it correct or even posted in good faith.

 

[Zeberdi]

I'd flatter you by saying check your history but this post is full of deliberate ommisions. You're not just mistaken, you're either deeply strange or utterly dishonest about your motivation or even origins. Because of most people's lack of experience of the situation you tend to get away with your endless bizarre epistles on here but I simply don't trust you or even that you believe what you post.
Just to address the first piece of made up bullshit, you're well aware that a two state solution was offered on the creation of Israel, that the Arabs refused it & that the surrounding states immediately attacked, telling the Arabs who lived there to leave & come back when the Jews were eliminated. They lost. Diddums. As they did in 1967. Diddums.
I & several others don't believe what you say & doubt even who you are. No one else has the energy to post as much as you do but it doesn't make it correct or even posted in good faith.

I’m not getting into a slagging match over your offensive remarks about my Jewish identity - you have no right to question me about that or gaslight me because you disagree with my opinions. If you can’t see that posting remarks designed to ’cancel’ someone’s Jewishness is antisemitic, I can’t help you. I will disclose to you however, that my Grandfather was in Auschwitz, my Grandmother bribed a load of soldiers with her jewellery to get him out and my father was evacuated from Vienna in 1939 to live in Wales. Our family name was changed to avoid racist attacks. I have an Uncle and cousin living in Israel and a whole lot of Jewish relatives in the States - some of whom support Netanyahu and are deeply Zionist in their beliefs. However, some great Jewish thinkers (like Gideon Levy) believe that standing up for the rights of Palestinians or calling an end to the war is not contrary to being Jewish - as do I.

This article demonstrates this point well I think

Meet the European Jews standing against Israel's war with Hamas

Having suffered throughout history, Jewish peace activists told Euronews Jews should identify with the oppressed and defend their rights - "whoever that oppressor may be."

www.euronews.com

As for your checkered history of the Palestinian question, most people accept the United Nations version of events as do I (which are clearly laid out in the link below)

Note - Ben-Gurion only saw the Petition Plan as a stepping stone to annex the entire Palestinian territy into Israel - that theme has passed down through Religious Zionist politics in Israel since 1948 and is what we are seeing being played out today in Netanyahu’s government. Also note, the first Arab/Israel war was not Arabs invading the State of Israel but took place over non-designated Jewish territory in Palestine.

https://www.un.org/unispal/timeline/

 

[Bakero]

I’m not getting into a slagging match over your offensive remarks about my Jewish identity - you have no right to question me about that or gaslight me because you disagree with my opinions. If you can’t see that posting remarks designed to ’cancel’ someone’s Jewishness is antisemitic, I can’t help you. I will disclose to you however, that my Grandfather was in Auschwitz, my Grandmother bribed a load of soldiers with her jewellery to get him out and my father was evacuated from Vienna in 1939 to live in Wales. Our family name was changed to avoid racist attacks. I have an Uncle and cousin living in Israel and a whole lot of Jewish relatives in the States - some of whom support Netanyahu and are deeply Zionist in their beliefs. However, some great Jewish thinkers (like Gideon Levy) believe that standing up for the rights of Palestinians or calling an end to the war is not contrary to being Jewish - as do I.

This article demonstrates this point well I think

Meet the European Jews standing against Israel's war with Hamas

Having suffered throughout history, Jewish peace activists told Euronews Jews should identify with the oppressed and defend their rights - "whoever that oppressor may be."

www.euronews.com

As for your checkered history of the Palestinian question, most people accept the United Nations version of events as do I (which are clearly laid out in the link below)

Note - Ben-Gurion only saw the Petition Plan as a stepping stone to annex the entire Palestinian territy into Israel - that theme has passed down through Religious Zionist politics in Israel since 1948 and is what we are seeing being played out today in Netanyahu’s government. Also note, the first Arab/Israel war was not Arabs invading the State of Israel but took place over non-designated Jewish territory in Palestine.

https://www.un.org/unispal/timeline/

To quote @Harry Wilson's tackle, I salute your indefatigability

AOL has his truth and he's not going to budge.

 

[Zeberdi]

To quote @Harry Wilson's tackle, I salute your indefatigability

AOL has his truth and he's not going to budge.

I have it on good authority that Harry is past the stage of saluting indefatigability, he would tell me to give up

I agree on your other point - but both sides can still state their alternative ‘facts’ without resorting to personal attacks when they feel out ‘argued’.

 

[aolstudios]

I have it on good authority that Harry is past the stage of saluting indefatigability, he would tell me to give up

I agree on your other point - but both sides can still state their alternative ‘facts’ without resorting to personal attacks when they feel out ‘argued’.

I can assure you, you're the last person on earth who would *ever* cause me to feel "out argued".
Unless of course, you get points for word count. In which case, you beat all of us, always. Several times a day

 

[Zeberdi]

I can assure you, you're the last person on earth who would *ever* cause me to feel "out argued".
Unless of course, you get points for word count. In which case, you beat all of us, always. Several times a day

Then what are all the personal attacks on my ethnicity and barbs about - can’t you just state your POV without the unnecessary unpleasantness?

I get you disagree with my POV on the situation in Gaza but I’m not stopping you from arguing your own POV or even trying to change your mind on anything - whatever POV it is that causes you to post inappropriate laughter emojis whenever anyone mentions the humanitarian suffering in Gaza is something I could never understand anyway.

Btw - my comment about ‘both sides arguing their POVs without resorting to personal attacks was a general one, applies to both sides of the Israel/Palestinian argument and to anyone - but given my views are not that polarised anyway though but quite nuanced, I don’t feel the need to attack anyone to defend them and I am honestly not clear what it is you so vehemently disagree with that causes you to resort to playing the man rather than the issue?