[News] Middle East conflict

[jcdenton08]

In the 3000-odd posts on this thread, I don't think anyone has ever suggested there shouldn't have been repercussions for the Hamas attacks.

No doubt those types exist now elsewhere (as do those who think Israel can do no wrong) but NSCers have universally condemned Hamas as far as I know.

Absolutely, I wasn’t having a dig at anyone here.

 

[Zeberdi]

In the 3000-odd posts on this thread, I don't think anyone has ever suggested there shouldn't have been repercussions for the Hamas attacks.

No doubt those types exist now elsewhere (as do those who think Israel can do no wrong) but NSCers have universally condemned Hamas as far as I know.

I agree - I think everyone here has condemned Hamas and no one thinks we should just let them carry on. There’s been a prevailing view in some quarters that think Israel are blameless and have conflated all Palestinians with Hamas or at least said they were inseparable - and that it was ‘Palestine’ that attacked Israel which is wrong on a number of levels - but thinking Israel is blameless has been pretty much the Government line since the war started so not surprising really.

 

[rippleman]

In the 3000-odd posts on this thread, I don't think anyone has ever suggested there shouldn't have been repercussions for the Hamas attacks.

No doubt those types exist now elsewhere (as do those who think Israel can do no wrong) but NSCers have universally condemned Hamas as far as I know.

Oh yes indeed.

if Israel had killed 10K Hamas terrorists tbh I don't think anybody would have given a shit.

It is the fact that Israel has deliberately targetted innocent civilians and killed THOUSANDS of CHILDREN. They are going to continue to do it and our political leaders, both Labour and Tory, are content to stand by and watch it happen.

Sunak and Starmer share the shame.

 

[rippleman]

I agree - I think everyone here has condemned Hamas and no one thinks we should just let them carry on. There’s been a prevailing view in some quarters that think Israel are blameless and have conflated all Palestinians with Hamas or at least said they were inseparable - and that it was ‘Palestine’ that attacked Israel which is wrong on a number of levels - but thinking Israel is blameless has been pretty much the Government line since the war started so not surprising really.

And also, sadly, the Opposition line too.

 

[Billy the Fish]

Tbh - I don’t know - clearly they need to be demilitarised- part of that has already happened- but flooding/contaminating Gaza’s fresh water aquifers with salt water in an act of environmental terrorism isn’t the answer, nor is killing over 10,000 infants and children. The rule of terror with which Hamas has ruled Gaza must come to an end - but something needs to fill the political vacuum that removing Hamas from power will leave - agreement on that will be hard to achieve but it is essential and must not be something imposed by the West - it has to be a joint Arab-West agreement with the full involvement of Palestinian civilian representation..

We also cannot be completely blind to the conditions that had provided a petri dish for breeding radicalism in the ME and especially in the Occupied Territories either. Israel cannot be allowed to carry on with apartheid polices, rampant settlement expansion, indiscriminate killings and collective punishments. Part of what needs to be done IMO can be done through civil and human rights regimes - undermining the power of Hamas to defraud Gazans out of Humanitarian aid by providing aid directly to civilians rather than through the Hamas authorities and restoring a system of democratic elections for people of Gaza - they have had no political choice who governs them since 2005 (there’s never been an election in Gaza - Hamas took over by violently expelling the PA). International rebuilding of infrastructure and housing with an international peace keeping force perhaps? Anything is better than what we have now but going back to the pre-October status quo isn’t a solution though.

Over 10,000 infants and children killed in Israel’s Gaza genocide, hundreds of whom are trapped beneath debris

Over 10,000 infants and children killed in Israel’s Gaza genocide, hundreds of whom are trapped beneath debris

euromedmonitor.org

There is still support for the two state solution and some support for a one state solution (which seems more unlikely at this time ) - the alternative in the meantime would be for a coalition run Arab enclave possibly under the auspices of the UN but absolutely NOT an Israeli occupation.

Broadly agree with what you're saying. I think most would agree, despite the minor differences on this thread.

If they create something for Palestinians that's allowed to grow and thrive then the chance of extremism taking hold diminishes. The same probably goes for the other side - if Israelis stop feeling threatened they'll eventually end up with a moderate government. But it all needs a consensus from the Arab states, Israel and the West. I doubt the pragmatism exists in order to achieve it. This really does feel like a fork in the road, either they find a way to stop killing each other now or it will go on forever.

 

[Zeberdi]

…either they find a way to stop killing each other now or it will go on forever.

Yes … as I said some weeks ago, we are both the closest to a lasting peace settlement than we have ever been, yet at the same time, the furthest away. I’m sure all of this will kick start major new peace initiatives once Israel agrees a ceasefire (that is if any Arab in the ME is still prepared to come to the table after this )

 

[aolstudios]

What was the initial trigger which led Hamas (the terrorists) to attack, kidnap and rape Israeli (state) citizens in the first place on October 7th?

Their stated aim. To kill all Jews

 

[nicko31]

Oh yes indeed.

if Israel had killed 10K Hamas terrorists tbh I don't think anybody would have given a shit.

It is the fact that Israel has deliberately targetted innocent civilians and killed THOUSANDS of CHILDREN. They are going to continue to do it and our political leaders, both Labour and Tory, are content to stand by and watch it happen.

Sunak and Starmer share the shame.

It is interesting looking at the Israeli press, totally one sided and very little on what is actually happening in Gaza. Little surprise public opinion is to just keep on bombing....

 

[aolstudios]

Broadly agree with what you're saying. I think most would agree, despite the minor differences on this thread.

If they create something for Palestinians that's allowed to grow and thrive then the chance of extremism taking hold diminishes. The same probably goes for the other side - if Israelis stop feeling threatened they'll eventually end up with a moderate government. But it all needs a consensus from the Arab states, Israel and the West. I doubt the pragmatism exists in order to achieve it. This really does feel like a fork in the road, either they find a way to stop killing each other now or it will go on forever.

That's exactly what Israel did when they pulled out of Gaza in 2005.
Hamas won the election, killed their opponents & spent billions of aid on themselves, building tunnels (for themselves, not civilians) & bombing Israel. Every single day. Resulting in fences etc

 

[aolstudios]

What was the initial trigger which led Hamas (the terrorists) to attack, kidnap and rape Israeli (state) citizens in the first place on October 7th?

Israel growing closer to many Arab states & crucially, about to make a deal with Saudi

 

[Billy the Fish]

That's exactly what Israel did when they pulled out of Gaza in 2005.
Hamas won the election, killed their opponents & spent billions of aid on themselves, building tunnels (for themselves, not civilians) & bombing Israel. Every single day. Resulting in fences etc

It needs to be policed properly doesn't it, I don't think they can be left to their own devices. That can't come from the west or Israel, it must be the Arab states.

 

[Zeberdi]

British Destroyer on active duty in the Red Sea

HMS Diamond: British warship shoots down suspected attack drone in Red Sea

The Royal Navy has not shot down an aerial target in anger since 1991, the Ministry of Defence says.

www.bbc.co.uk

And this seems extraordinary - IDF responsible for shooting dead 3 Israeli hostages emerging from a building, carrying a white flag and shirtless because the soldier responsible ‘felt under threat’ apparently - inexperienced reservists serving in the IDF, the chaos of war but more worryingly, why would they be shooting anyone with no shirt on carrying a white flag and shouting for ‘help’ in Hebrew? - Clearly the IDF thought they were Hamas but it lends credence to the suggestion that indiscriminate or punishment killings are being perpetrated on innocent civilians or even those suspected of terrorism, contrary to the Geneva Convention and humanitarian law if the white flag is being ignored. The Israeli Government and the IDF have since condemned the killings, putting distance between themselves and those that pulled the trigger.

https://www.axios.com/2023/12/15/hostages-killed-israeli-troops-gaza-hamas

 

[fly high]

British Destroyer on active duty in the Red Sea

HMS Diamond: British warship shoots down suspected attack drone in Red Sea

The Royal Navy has not shot down an aerial target in anger since 1991, the Ministry of Defence says.

www.bbc.co.uk

And this seems extraordinary - IDF responsible for shooting dead 3 Israeli hostages emerging from a building, carrying a white flag and shirtless because the soldier responsible ‘felt under threat’ apparently - inexperienced reservists serving in the IDF, the chaos of war but more worryingly, why would they be shooting anyone with no shirt on carrying a white flag and shouting for ‘help’ in Hebrew? - Clearly the IDF thought they were Hamas but it lends credence to the suggestion that indiscriminate or punishment killings are being perpetrated on innocent civilians or even those suspected of terrorism, contrary to the Geneva Convention and humanitarian law if the white flag is being ignored. The Israeli Government and the IDF have since condemned the killings, putting distance between themselves and those that pulled the trigger.

https://www.axios.com/2023/12/15/hostages-killed-israeli-troops-gaza-hamas

IDF seem to be out of control, the only excuse you could give is they are scared kids. Why are they shooting dead women in the grounds of a church? They have lost the plot, time to go home.

 

[dejavuatbtn]

I can’t quite believe the news today. That really is the lowest of the low.

 

[knocky1]

Sums it up.

 

[Bakero]

The UK has now called for a ceasefire, saying that “too many civilians have been killed."

Israel-Gaza war: UK and Germany call for ‘sustainable’ ceasefire

UK foreign minister David Cameron and German counterpart Annalena Baerbock say goal must be peace lasting ‘generations’

www.theguardian.com

 

[portslade seagull]

The trouble now is the IDF are too gung ho hence the killing of three of their own. They will have an internal inquiry and wishy washy it away or blame someone else.

 

[Zeberdi]

The UK has now called for a ceasefire, saying that “too many civilians have been killed."

Israel-Gaza war: UK and Germany call for ‘sustainable’ ceasefire

UK foreign minister David Cameron and German counterpart Annalena Baerbock say goal must be peace lasting ‘generations’

www.theguardian.com

Not quite the type of ‘immediate ceasefire’ the majority of the UN have been calling for - rather ‘calling for’ a long-term ‘ceasefire’ as part of a ‘sustainable solution’ - the UK is just saying it supports a ceasefire if we find a peaceful solution to the Palestinian issue and Hamas stops attacking Israel: As the foreign Secretary said at the UN Assembly on Friday

”We have been clear that Israel must be targeted and precise in its efforts to address the threat posed by Hamas, and must minimise civilian casualties and protect civilian infrastructure in line with international humanitarian law. My Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary have repeatedly delivered this message to Israel, and will continue to do so…we support calls for a sustainable ceasefire, where hostages are released, more aid can get in and Hamas stops firing rockets into Israel.”

Politik-speak.

In the Sunday times today, David Cameron writes

"We do not believe that calling right now for a general and immediate ceasefire, hoping it somehow becomes permanent, is the way forward… Would Hamas stop firing rockets? Would it release the hostages? Would its murderous ideology change? An unsustainable ceasefire, quickly collapsing into further violence, would only make it harder to build the confidence needed for peace."

Politik-speak and prevarication…but reaffirming clear support for Israel to continue it’s war campaign against Hamas and not stopping until Hamas is destroyed - the UK, along with the US, committed to an open-ended and very possibly unachievable objective.

 

[sparkie]

Not quite the type of ‘immediate ceasefire’ the majority of the UN have been calling for - rather ‘calling for’ a long-term ‘ceasefire’ as part of a ‘sustainable solution’ - the UK is just saying it supports a ceasefire if we find a peaceful solution to the Palestinian issue and Hamas stops attacking Israel: As the foreign Secretary said at the UN Assembly on Friday

”We have been clear that Israel must be targeted and precise in its efforts to address the threat posed by Hamas, and must minimise civilian casualties and protect civilian infrastructure in line with international humanitarian law. My Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary have repeatedly delivered this message to Israel, and will continue to do so…we support calls for a sustainable ceasefire, where hostages are released, more aid can get in and Hamas stops firing rockets into Israel.”

Politik-speak.

In the Sunday times today, David Cameron writes

"We do not believe that calling right now for a general and immediate ceasefire, hoping it somehow becomes permanent, is the way forward… Would Hamas stop firing rockets? Would it release the hostages? Would its murderous ideology change? An unsustainable ceasefire, quickly collapsing into further violence, would only make it harder to build the confidence needed for peace."

Politik-speak and prevarication…but reaffirming clear support for Israel to continue it’s war campaign against Hamas and not stopping until Hamas is destroyed - the UK, along with the US, committed to an open-ended and very possibly unachievable objective.

Surely a ceasefire cannot be just Israel ceases and Hamas still fires ?

I've probably misunderstood you but both sides need to cease, surely ?

 

[Zeberdi]

Surely a ceasefire cannot be just Israel ceases and Hamas still fires ?

I've probably misunderstood you but both sides need to cease, surely ?

Now you’re getting it - what the UK is suggesting isn’t a ‘ceasefire’ but a one-sided situation “where hostages are released, more aid can get in and Hamas stops firing rockets into Israel.”

Anything less than that, the UK says would be ‘unsustainable‘ because Hamas would regroup and their ideology would remain

“We do not believe that calling right now for a general and immediate ceasefire, hoping it somehow becomes permanent, is the way forward… Would Hamas stop firing rockets? Would it release the hostages? Would its murderous ideology change?”

All people will see is the headlines that the UK is calling for a ‘ceasefire’ - it’s rubbish, the UK’s policy on supporting Israel hasn’t changed.