[News] Middle East conflict

[GingerBeerMan]

I'm trying to avoid the whole thing because it's utterly depressing. As a civilian there is literally nothing we can do, protests is about as much as we can do and they're totally useless.

I've already hidden the other thread and I avoid the news at all costs. Perhaps ignorance isn't bliss but it's the best I can do for my mental health right now.

To think this genocide is being carried out by a group who were the focus of genocide about three generations ago is all the more baffling.

 

[bWize]

Shame on the UK for abstaining! My Grandpa was pretty much blown to pieces whilst serving in WW2 (protecting and freeing the Jews) and I know he would be rolling in his grave at recent events.

In my eyes he fought for and paid the ultimate price in a fight for fairness and democracy, but that isn't what we are witnessing at the moment.

 

[sydney]

The US are the biggest hypocrites and turning a blind eye to genocide.

While the UK are cowardly and seldomly will vote against the US.

just look at the people voting and who their friends , families and vested interests are .......sickening

 

[The Wookiee]

 

[Insel affe]

The oppressed turns oppressor.
Shame on so called leaders of the “free world & champions of democracy“
This was always going to happen, with the weapons industry, campaign funds, votes in crucial elections to consider, and the guilt of WW2, America and the UK were never going to do more than “strongly object”
Pathetic.

 

[nickjhs]

The lies the major governments and media outlets are using as justification for their support of Israel disgusts me, as does the fact that our governments are, in my view legally complicit in this genocide. That people speaking out against this are being labeled as antisemitic is slanderous. I am anti-zionist, which cannot be conflated with antisemitism. The analogy I like to use is to imagine the IRA had done something similar to Hamas and the UK government had flattened Belfast in retaliation, followed by a policy of destroying any towns where the IRA operated from. Or liken it to spousal abuse where the abused spouse has finally hit back and the abuser beat them to death with a baseball bat, and the police say it was a justifiable response. Of course, the answer lies in why the Brits supported the zionists from the Balfour Declaration onward. They and the others want Israel to do their bidding and have their backs in the Middle East. The whole episode lays bare the disgusting nature of the economic system our societies are founded upon.

 

[armchairclubber]

Sickening & depressing.
The US & UK love to meddle in overseas affairs and wars at arms length when it secures their weapons trades.
The disgusting love of money and immense wealth that will come to the select cowardly few (or many) as a result of of this escalation.
Not forgetting much the same situation in Ukraine who will be pleading for more weapons support.
And then some people wonder why we have refugees.

 

[sydney]

Sickening & depressing.
The US & UK love to meddle in overseas affairs and wars at arms length when it secures their weapons trades.
The disgusting love of money and immense wealth that will come to the select cowardly few (or many) as a result of of this escalation.
Not forgetting much the same situation in Ukraine who will be pleading for more weapons support.
And then some people wonder why we have refugees.

yeah it's almost like a select few sit at the top of the tree pulling strings and reaping huge financial rewards whilst the man and woman in the street are left to deal with the consequences and yes we do wonder why we get refugees and we do wonder why there are billions of pounds worth of surveillance equipment mounted on poles and buildings all over the country .........it is a pretty sick world we are living in at the moment , don't get me started on covid , global warming and VAR ( which to my mind is a deliberate attempt to distract the masses from what's occurring , how can they get so much , so wrong , so often)?

 

[Justice]

yeah it's almost like a select few sit at the top of the tree pulling strings and reaping huge financial rewards whilst the man and woman in the street are left to deal with the consequences and yes we do wonder why we get refugees and we do wonder why there are billions of pounds worth of surveillance equipment mounted on poles and buildings all over the country .........it is a pretty sick world we are living in at the moment , don't get me started on covid , global warming and VAR ( which to my mind is a deliberate attempt to distract the masses from what's occurring , how can they get so much , so wrong , so often)?

We are closer to the fictional hunger games than some may think.
The government waste our taxes on absolute shite like Rwanda and filling French pockets to do the square root of FA, yet happy to leave the poorest in the country well more destitute than they already are.
If I have to listen to that monotone plumed voiced Sunak for much longer I will crack up.

 

[Bakero]

...........as is trying to obliterate Israel and all the Jewish people therein. There are no good guys in this war.

But there are innocent people dying in large numbers and seeing their society being utterly destroyed.

 

[POSKETT AT THE VALLEY]

Shame on Israel and the USA

 

[tedebear]

Jeremy Bowen is usually pretty insightful. In this BBC piece shown on the 10pm news a couple of nights back is an interview with Simcha Rothman (at 1:52) which is exceptionally chilling and has stuck with me since in a very unpleasant way. Yes this man is a right wing activist and Religious Zionist Party member, but whilst it has always been clear there were a minority of Isreali's who believe the whole land belongs to them, including Gaza and the West Bank (and nothing for Palestinians) it is clear this is not a minority view anymore given the attacks on Palestinians in the West Bank by armed and violent Isrealis which are now being unearthed and reported. Not only are we complicit in this war for not voting for a ceasefire, we are complicit in not calling out this activity outside the immediate "war zone". I put "war zone" in inverted commas as it appears the Isrealis don't believe Palestinians should be on any of this land and have launched an all out assault up and down the country. The UK are complicit if we stand by and do nothing. Doing nothing simply bolsters the agressor.

 

[Zeberdi]

This whole thread is full of you shutting down any opinion that deviates from your own. That's very much your style of posting, and it's entirely by design. You have a habit of presenting opinion as fact and using biased sources to justify it.

This whole thread is full of me highlighting the appalling situation in Gaza, the policy of settlement expansion by the Netanyahu Government across the West Bank and the genocidal, extremist right wing policies pervading the Israel Government’s approach to the ‘Palestinian problem’ and the brutal political and social realities of life under illegal occupation for them. The humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza we are witnessing is directly caused by the disproportionate response by Israel to the Hamas attacks on top of years of blockades and for no other reason.

It maybe true that speaking out as I have done has probably been a waste of time as a few posters have said - it’s certainly not done me any favours.

But sadly, It is often the case that by the time the majority of opinion sees the truth of human rights abuses and genocide, it is often too late to save the populations concerned. When any nation of people under go destruction of all necessary infrastructure for a society to survive, blanket forced removal of people from their homes and widespread slaughter of innocent civilians - the objectives of genocide have already all but been achieved.

Seeing Genocide - Boston Review

Israel’s weaponization of images since October 7 obfuscates its genocidal campaign against Palestinians.

www.bostonreview.net

 

[armchairclubber]

I think it worth also noting that the separate "This is Genocide" thread to which I replied has been merged / shut down.
I think this highlighted and brought to attention a slightly different topic of debate to the thread title here.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

This whole thread is full of me highlighting the appalling situation in Gaza, the policy of settlement expansion by the Netanyahu Government across the West Bank and the genocidal, extremist right wing policies pervading the Israel Government’s approach to the ‘Palestinian problem’ and the brutal political and social realities of life under illegal occupation for them. The humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza we are witnessing is directly caused by the disproportionate response by Israel to the Hamas attacks on top of years of blockades and for no other reason.

It maybe true that speaking out as I have done has probably been a waste of time as a few posters have said - it’s certainly not done me any favours.

But sadly, It is often the case that by the time the majority of opinion sees the truth of human rights abuses and genocide, it is often too late to save the populations concerned. When any nation of people under go destruction of all necessary infrastructure for a society to survive, blanket forced removal of people from their homes and widespread slaughter of innocent civilians - the objectives of genocide have already all but been achieved.

Seeing Genocide - Boston Review

Israel’s weaponization of images since October 7 obfuscates its genocidal campaign against Palestinians.

www.bostonreview.net

Keep speaking up. I suspect your comments are generally well received. The bit I have highlighted is unquestionably correct. The problem is that it is also unquestionably understandable, if it is the case that there is a prominent element in Palestinians, Lebanon, Iran and possibly Syria that see as the ends game, all the Jews in the sea.

What I don't know is how entrenched that Arab position is, and whether there is any scope for negotiation. And then of course the west bank is out of control, with illegal settlement and violation of the rule of law actively encouraged by Bibi.

And finally, the only thing that would have stopped Gaza being flattened is Hamas not having 'started it'.

ps, correct me if I am wrong but it seems there are no western governments saying to Bibi 'stop now, or else'. Certainly not our tiny wanka, or sleepy Joe. In which case we can do nothing other than sit ad watch

 

[borat]

Had to tune out for a bit as seeing the massacres and war crimes being carried out takes a mental toll after a while (Imagine being subjected to it in person).

The unconditional backing of Israeli actions by the majority of our politicians is shameful. Another poster said they felt hopeless and I sympathise. I still think it's worth protesting - if nothing elses to be in the company of people who share the same humanity. Write to your MP and join and support financially
https://bdsmovement.net/

Even when this beyond horrendous period is "over" (the trauma will last forever for Gazans), the Palestinians left will still be occupied and oppressed. There will a new generation of traumatised children and teenagers who will want to (justifiably) resist their oppressors.

The key but seemingly insurmountable challenge is to get Israeli influence out of UK and US politics and reduce/eliminate financial support. Unconditional political and financial backing of Israel by the US especially prevents any hope of a long lasting peace for both groups.

 

[Zeberdi]

What I don't know is how entrenched that Arab position is, and whether there is any scope for negotiation.

This is becoming a very worrying aspect indeed - the willingness for the Arab world to engage with the West on finding a 2 state solution is rapidly disintegrating- yet it is exactly the Gulf States - Jordan, Qatar, UAE etc and Saudis Arabia that Israel needs on board to help secure her security in the region. The voices of the Arab world at the Security Council yesterday were very clear on their condemnation of Israel and they all clearly see what is happening as genocide. As each daily bombardment carries on and more civilians die and infrastructure is destroyed, Israel’s security issues in the long term risk getting a whole lot worse not better - Arab support for normalising relations with Israel have all but fallen by the wayside and Hamas of course is not the only Iran backed extremist group in the ME nor is its presence confined to Gaza.

And finally, the only thing that would have stopped Gaza being flattened is Hamas not having 'started it'.

On that we may need to differ on the issue of who actually started the chain of events and whether Gaza being flattened is solely a response to the October massacre or a wider agenda on a trajectory that would have led to Gaza being flattened eventually anyway - but yes, it is seen by Israel, the UK and the US as the ’justification’ for Israel to attack Gaza in the way that she is, for sure.

 

[tedebear]

And finally, the only thing that would have stopped Gaza being flattened is Hamas not having 'started it'.

Actually I'm more of the thought that this started in 1948 when Isreal was created without the agreement of the Arab peoples. Emboldening and arming the Isrealis seems to be seriously backfiring now! To say a monster has been created is an understatment. Having said that both of these populations of people deserve a place to live in peace. It is impossible to see how that can happen with both sides committing atrocities and refusing to recognise the humanity of the other...

 

[ClemFandango]

Had to tune out for a bit as seeing the massacres and war crimes being carried out takes a mental toll after a while (Imagine being subjected to it in person).

The unconditional backing of Israeli actions by the majority of our politicians is shameful. Another poster said they felt hopeless and I sympathise. I still think it's worth protesting - if nothing elses to be in the company of people who share the same humanity. Write to your MP and join and support financially
https://bdsmovement.net/

Even when this beyond horrendous period is "over" (the trauma will last forever for Gazans), the Palestinians left will still be occupied and oppressed. There will a new generation of traumatised children and teenagers who will want to (justifiably) resist their oppressors.

The key but seemingly insurmountable challenge is to get Israeli influence out of UK and US politics and reduce/eliminate financial support. Unconditional political and financial backing of Israel by the US especially prevents any hope of a long lasting peace for both groups.

What about the trauma of the young Israeli woman in the bloodied sweatpants who is still being held by the Hamas rapists as we speak? Can you imagine what happens to Israel if the West withdraws its support in the way you’re advocating.

 

[Goldstone1976]

I think it worth also noting that the separate "This is Genocide" thread to which I replied has been merged / shut down.
I think this highlighted and brought to attention a slightly different topic of debate to the thread title here.

Merged? Yes, into this thread. Shut down? No, as it’s been merged into this thread.

It can sometimes be difficult to assess whether a new thread is actually a new thread or whether it’s simply a place where the same debate will be had. For examples of the latter, see the early threads on Brexit-related stuff and Covid-related stuff. If we hadn’t merged all the new threads on Brexit we’d have had over 100 - this makes following a moving news story impossible.

I think the key word in your post is ‘slightly’. I agree; that’s why I merged the thread.

Nonetheless, I’ve edited the thread title to be somewhat more up to date and a little broader.