[News] Middle East conflict

[A1X]

however does trigger a burning question, or observation, why do the unions and left find so much time for the Palestinian cause? of all the causes around the world, this one has so much attention over decades.

Going back to this, for many they see it as a continuation of the anti-imperialism which has characterised left wing politics for over a century. They see Palestine as a state which has been colonised by Israel, who themselves are a proxy for the USA (which is the only country they hate more than Israel). As ever, there is some truth in this (Israel is almost entirely reliant on the US, for example), coupled with a lot of nonsense.

It also plays into the thing which most unites the hard left and the hard right in their outlook, that there are “good guys” and “bad guys” (conveniently the good guys are always them and those they agree with). Whereas for most of us, we can see nuance in a,most everything.

 

[aolstudios]

Going back to this, for many they see it as a continuation of the anti-imperialism which has characterised left wing politics for over a century. They see Palestine as a state which has been colonised by Israel, who themselves are a proxy for the USA (which is the only country they hate more than Israel). As ever, there is some truth in this (Israel is almost entirely reliant on the US, for example), coupled with a lot of nonsense.

It also plays into the thing which most unites the hard left and the hard right in their outlook, that there are “good guys” and “bad guys” (conveniently the good guys are always them and those they agree with). Whereas for most of us, we can see nuance in a,most everything.

Spot on

 

[rippleman]

Seems to me that Corbyn and (especially) McLusky spoke sense. And I very much dislike Corbyn, a man who is no longer relevant. Morgan's questions and position were largely fair. Nothing to see here.

Not sure why Corbyn can't ask one simple question. Oh, hang on. I forgot. He's an idiot. Politically.

I can absolutely guarantee to you that if Corbyn was Labour leader the party wouldn't be in the complete shambles that it is today with the possibility that by the end of the day Starmer could be sacking half of his front bench for refusing to rally to his call to oppose a ceasefire in Gaza.

How any right thinking person could see the reports from Gaza of hundreds of children being slaughtered, orphaned and traumatised and think "nope. This isn't the time to call for a ceasefire. Let the slaughter continue" is beyond my comprehension.

It breaks my heart that the party I have supported my entire life has ended up with such a callous, uncaring individual leading it.

 

[borat]

I can absolutely guarantee to you that if Corbyn was Labour leader the party wouldn't be in the complete shambles that it is today with the possibility that by the end of the day Starmer could be sacking half of his front bench for refusing to rally to his call to oppose a ceasefire in Gaza.

How any right thinking person could see the reports from Gaza of hundreds of children being slaughtered, orphaned and traumatised and think "nope. This isn't the time to call for a ceasefire. Let the slaughter continue" is beyond my comprehension.

It breaks my heart that the party I have supported my entire life has ended up with such a callous, uncaring individual leading it.

Any Labour member that doesnt back a Ceasefire has blood on their hands.

Absolutely disgusting that a supposed party of the left continues to support Israel unconditionally in the way it does.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I can absolutely guarantee to you that if Corbyn was Labour leader the party wouldn't be in the complete shambles that it is today with the possibility that by the end of the day Starmer could be sacking half of his front bench for refusing to rally to his call to oppose a ceasefire in Gaza.

How any right thinking person could see the reports from Gaza of hundreds of children being slaughtered, orphaned and traumatised and think "nope. This isn't the time to call for a ceasefire. Let the slaughter continue" is beyond my comprehension.

It breaks my heart that the party I have supported my entire life has ended up with such a callous, uncaring individual leading it.

You think that Labour instantly condemning Israel for responding to an attack that killed 1000 civilians would have been the right way forward?

In other words, giving support to Hamas?

And handing over 15, maybe 20 % of the vote to the tories, so they can have another five glorious years after the next GE?

Over a matter about which our applause or condemnation is irrelevant. Because in this crisis we are irrelevant?

I am more interested in grown up politics than student politics.

Bloke on the radio just said the left wing woke is wagging the dog. That's what we are up against. Still

Hopefully the reaction of the mad antisemites in Labour will smoke them out. Let them resign. Let them join up with George Galloway in his latest vanity project. Let them join the SWP (the party of the shop steward of the union I left 2 years ago, for passing only one motion in 10 years - to condemn Israel and anyone who deals with them - rather than give support to the opponents of the bastard Bibi). Let those in Labour who want to drive the jews into the sea leave labour. And good riddance.

We have had a long and measured discussion on the crisis on NSC, with some excellent contributions from @Zeberdi among others. I'd suggest that you read it, rather than hang Starmer out to dry. He can't do anything about this other than lose votes.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I can absolutely guarantee to you that if Corbyn was Labour leader the party wouldn't be in the complete shambles that it is today with the possibility that by the end of the day Starmer could be sacking half of his front bench for refusing to rally to his call to oppose a ceasefire in Gaza.

How any right thinking person could see the reports from Gaza of hundreds of children being slaughtered, orphaned and traumatised and think "nope. This isn't the time to call for a ceasefire. Let the slaughter continue" is beyond my comprehension.

It breaks my heart that the party I have supported my entire life has ended up with such a callous, uncaring individual leading it.

Oh, to add, the party would be in pieces. Corbyn is not a unity candidate. Get real!

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Is it sense to claim that if Israel stopped occupying Gaza (which they should) that Hamas would disband? That's complete nonsense.

Corbyn refused to answer that question. My point was that what he said made sense. Had Morgan been a decent journalist he would have waited for Corbyn to shoot himself in the foot rather than shout at him like some oaf in a playground attempting to steal a weaker boy's dinner money.

 

[LamieRobertson]

Seems to me that Corbyn and (especially) McLusky spoke sense. And I very much dislike Corbyn, a man who is no longer relevant. Morgan's questions and position were largely fair. Nothing to see here.

Not sure why Corbyn can't ask one simple question. Oh, hang on. I forgot. He's an idiot. Politically.

Despite repeatedly being asked one question (yeah Morgan can act the bully) he didn’t answer….also his excuse re calling Hamas friends..pfft….ive seen a video which really tells a different story.

I’m not sure I agree with your assessment re M….i can’t see Hamas disappearing on his solution….their ideology is centred around Israel not existing…so maybe it’s a bit simplistic

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Despite repeatedly being asked one question (yeah Morgan can act the bully) he didn’t answer….also his excuse re calling Hamas friends..pfft….ive seen a video which really tells a different story.

Yes, I know Corbyn is a dick. But the interview was madness. We all know how Corbyn responds to such questions. This is why Starmer booted him out, and why he is no longer relevant.

 

[rippleman]

You think that Labour instantly condemning Israel for responding to an attack that killed 1000 civilians would have been the right way forward?

In other words, giving support to Hamas?

And handing over 15, maybe 20 % of the vote to the tories, so they can have another five glorious years after the next GE?

Over a matter about which our applause or condemnation is irrelevant. Because in this crisis we are irrelevant?

I am more interested in grown up politics than student politics.

Bloke on the radio just said the left wing woke is wagging the dog. That's what we are up against. Still

Hopefully the reaction of the mad antisemites in Labour will smoke them out. Let them resign. Let them join up with George Galloway in his latest vanity project. Let them join the SWP (the party of the shop steward of the union I left 2 years ago, for passing only one motion in 10 years - to condemn Israel and anyone who deals with them - rather than give support to the opponents of the bastard Bibi). Let those in Labour who want to drive the jews into the sea leave labour. And good riddance.

We have had a long and measured discussion on the crisis on NSC, with some excellent contributions from @Zeberdi among others. I'd suggest that you read it, rather than hang Starmer out to dry. He can't do anything about this other than lose votes.

I don't believe that slaughtering 10,000 in retaliation is just and proportional.

I don't believe that ignoring calls from various UN agencies and other humanitarian / charitable groups for a ceasefire should be ignored.

After Argentina invaded the Falklands, we set sail, gave them a bloody nose and came home again. We did not carpet bomb Buenos Aeries for weeks indiscrimately killing children and babies.

You won't be able to do "grown up" politics until you understand that wholesale slaughter is not the answer to any problem.

For forty odd years we had the threat of nationalist terrorists in NI and the mainland. For most of that time we tried to use military force to suppress terrorism. Did it work? Did it bollocks. Peace in NI was achieved first through a ceasefire, and then by discussion and negotiation.

The Bloody Sunday murders were the most effective recruitment campaign that the IRA ever had. Slaughter of innocent people didn't stop the IRA; it emboldened them.

You have a staggeringly high level of naivety if you think slaughtering countless children in an act of sheer revenge will overnight end terrorism in the middle east.


As the excellent Andy Zaltzman said on a recent edition of The News Quiz:-

"The only thing we learn from the lessons of history is that we fail to learn the lessons of history."

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I don't believe that slaughtering 10,000 in retaliation is just and proportional.

I don't believe that ignoring calls from various UN agencies and other humanitarian / charitable groups for a ceasefire should be ignored.

After Argentina invaded the Falklands, we set sail, gave them a bloody nose and came home again. We did not carpet bomb Buenos Aeries for weeks indiscrimately killing children and babies.

You won't be able to do "grown up" politics until you understand that wholesale slaughter is not the answer to any problem.

For forty odd years we had the threat of nationalist terrorists in NI and the mainland. For most of that time we tried to use military force to suppress terrorism. Did it work? Did it bollocks. Peace in NI was achieved first through a ceasefire, and then by discussion and negotiation.

The Bloody Sunday murders were the most effective recruitment campaign that the IRA ever had. Slaughter of innocent people didn't stop the IRA; it emboldened them.

You have a staggeringly high level of naivety if you think slaughtering countless children in an act of sheer revenge will overnight end terrorism in the middle east.


As the excellent Andy Zaltzman said on a recent edition of The News Quiz:-

"The only thing we learn from the lessons of history is that we fail to learn the lessons of history."

I don't disagree with any of that.

I simply don't think there is (was, earlier) any purpose in labour demanding a ceasefire.

However I think they should do so now.

But it is the IRA that called the ceasefire in NI. I agree that the 'no surrender' rhetoric from the UK was never appropriate.

 

[beorhthelm]

Going back to this, for many they see it as a continuation of the anti-imperialism which has characterised left wing politics for over a century. They see Palestine as a state which has been colonised by Israel, who themselves are a proxy for the USA (which is the only country they hate more than Israel). As ever, there is some truth in this (Israel is almost entirely reliant on the US, for example), coupled with a lot of nonsense.

It also plays into the thing which most unites the hard left and the hard right in their outlook, that there are “good guys” and “bad guys” (conveniently the good guys are always them and those they agree with). Whereas for most of us, we can see nuance in a,most everything.

that makes sense, and ties in with moronic boycotts of Israel that seem to follow.

(only high profile products, they dont boycott Israeli sourced technology which often used unknowingly.)

 

[LamieRobertson]

Yes, I know Corbyn is a dick. But the interview was madness. We all know how Corbyn responds to such questions. This is why Starmer booted him out, and why he is no longer relevant.

I think we are agreeing Harry

 

[aolstudios]

that makes sense, and ties in with moronic boycotts of Israel that seem to follow.

(only high profile products, they dont boycott Israeli sourced technology which often used unknowingly.)

Often conveniently 'unknowing'. They could barely function if they boycotted everything

 

[borat]

Spot on

 

[Triggaaar]

Corbyn refused to answer that question. My point was that what he said made sense.

You said "Seems to me that Corbyn and (especially) McLusky spoke sense."

And I'm saying that I don't think McLusky was making sense when he said Hamas would disband if Israel left.

Had Morgan been a decent journalist he would have waited for Corbyn to shoot himself in the foot rather than shout at him

I agree. Morgan is a tw@

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

You said "Seems to me that Corbyn and (especially) McLusky spoke sense."

And I'm saying that I don't think McLusky was making sense when he said Hamas would disband if Israel left.




I agree. Morgan is a tw@

OK. I didn't mean that everything they both said all made 100% sense, hence the word 'especially'.

And I made it clear, as I have done repeatedly, that I think Corbyn is an arse.

My comments about Morgan, I presume, don't need clarification/elaboration. My main point was about him, since Corbyn is no longer a member of my party, and the trade union leader is a trade union leader with no members, as far as I am aware, in Israel or Gaza.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

I don't believe that slaughtering 10,000 in retaliation is just and proportional.

I don't believe that ignoring calls from various UN agencies and other humanitarian / charitable groups for a ceasefire should be ignored.

After Argentina invaded the Falklands, we set sail, gave them a bloody nose and came home again. We did not carpet bomb Buenos Aeries for weeks indiscrimately killing children and babies.

You won't be able to do "grown up" politics until you understand that wholesale slaughter is not the answer to any problem.

For forty odd years we had the threat of nationalist terrorists in NI and the mainland. For most of that time we tried to use military force to suppress terrorism. Did it work? Did it bollocks. Peace in NI was achieved first through a ceasefire, and then by discussion and negotiation.

The Bloody Sunday murders were the most effective recruitment campaign that the IRA ever had. Slaughter of innocent people didn't stop the IRA; it emboldened them.

You have a staggeringly high level of naivety if you think slaughtering countless children in an act of sheer revenge will overnight end terrorism in the middle east.


As the excellent Andy Zaltzman said on a recent edition of The News Quiz:-

"The only thing we learn from the lessons of history is that we fail to learn the lessons of history."

And finally, you know my views, process and assessments better than that.

 

[sparkie]

Spot on

All as bad as each other.

And still it goes on.

 

[Zeberdi]

Israeli troops raid Gaza's Shifa hospital | Reuters Video

Israeli troops entered Gaza's biggest hospital on Wednesday (November 15) and were searching its rooms and basement, witnesses said, amid global alarm over the fate of thousands of civilians trapped inside. Olivia Chan reports. This video contains graphic content.

www.reuters.com