[News] Middle East conflict

[Westdene Seagull]

Thanks for the constructive reply. As we know, Hamas use the Palestinian population as human sheilds placing high value targets (weapon stores command posts, rocket launchers, homes of Hamas leadership) in heavily built up areas so targeted strikes still inevitably leads to civilian casualties. I also think comparisons with the IRA are misguided as our response was in relation to a specific type of threat. If Republican terrorists had just slaughtered 1000 plus UK civilians and continually fired rockets at our cities a full scale military response would be on the way ... rightly so.

Very noticeable that you didn't provide a comment on this bit - "The only real long lasting solution is peace talks, giving up of the OPTs and a two state solution."

 

[Westdene Seagull]

However surely the solution is something other than killing thousands and thounds

And there is - "The only real long lasting solution is peace talks, giving up of the OPTs and a two state solution." - but Israel won't even consider this. If this had been implemented when first discussed between the PA and Israel then the slaughter we've recently seen from Hamas and the ongoing slaughter we're seeing from Israel probably wouldn't be happening. Both sides are too entrenched to achieve this though.

 

[borat]

A good question and one that can’t be fully answered in specifics without being informed of all the facts, understanding context or dialling down some of the hyperbole surrounding the question - no one would suggest Israel is not justified in responding in some way to the heinous and invasive attacks carried by Hamas - it would be insane to think she shouldn’t or wouldn’t but an appropriate response needs to be;

1. proportionate and measured and which considers the human and political cost of any such response
2. one that avoids the risk of further escalation and/or spilling out into a wider conflict
3. one that allows for diplomatic dialogue and ceasefire throughout
4. inclusive of a self-assessment as to whether an amendment of one’s of political stance might help reduce future antagonism or at least form the basis for a longer term peace strategy
5. conducted with due regard to the Geneva and Hague Conventions on war crimes and protecting civilian populations and in accordance international UN charters.
6. has a clear and attainable objective, with an exit strategy

In fact everything that does not characterise the current response!

What would be an appropriate Palestinian response to the way Israel is conducting her response to 10/7 !? is the glib comeback to a very loaded question. But we are not playing that silly tit for tat game are we?

To add - what is the appropriate Palestinian response to being subjugated, murdered, harassed and imprisoned over a period of decades.

A useful exercise is to imagine your own street whether it be in Brighton, Portslade, Hove etc subject to those conditions.

How would you feel and what would you do?

 

[Krafty]

According to the UN, more than a third of Gaza hospitals are shut due to damage from the war and lack of fuel. The few open hospitals are on the brink of cancelling life-saving treatment as the UN warns fuel runs out tonight. (BBC)

 

[Wozza]

A few broken images in this, but shows the devastation in Gaza.

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(Can view once before paywall I think?)

 

[Greenbag50]

Another ‘Free Palestine, from river to see and Jihad’ march in London on Saturday.
3 Saturdays on the bounce disruption has been experienced now.
Is this to be expected as the norm from now?

 

[Bakero]

Another ‘Free Palestine, from river to see and Jihad’ march in London on Saturday.
3 Saturdays on the bounce disruption has been experienced now.
Is this to be expected as the norm from now?

I think you'll find most people feel the importance of events in Israel and Gaza somewhat outweigh some mild disruption in London.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

Another ‘Free Palestine, from river to see and Jihad’ march in London on Saturday.
3 Saturdays on the bounce disruption has been experienced now.
Is this to be expected as the norm from now?

Maybe go to Gaza and see the 'disruption' there and then decide if you want to complain about a protest in bomb free London.

 

[Giraffe]

Appropriately targeted killings of Hamas ( like we did to the IRA ) rather than the mass slaughter and starvation of innocent civilians. Maybe Britian should have obliterated Eire to deal with the IRA ? The only real long lasting solution is peace talks, giving up of the OPTs and a two state solution.

Meant to add- by the IDF over the top actions all they are doing is breeding the next generation of Hamas fighters ..... and so the cycle will continue. Remind me who suggests humans are the intelligent race on earth ?

The comparison with the IRA is really not right though is it. Hamas controls the whole of Gaza. The IRA was never governing Northern Ireland. The scale of their killing in one event was nothing like the scale of what we have seen Hamas do in Israel. They planted bombs which killed some people> Hamas effectively invaded a part of Israel killing anyone who got in their way, including children, burning them alive, mutilating their bodies. This was an invasion. The IRA was never that.

 

[LamieRobertson]

Maybe go to Gaza and see the 'disruption' there and then decide if you want to complain about a protest in bomb free London.

I wonder if they will allow the ‘Israeli’ one that was not allowed to go ahead last weekend because of the pro ‘Palestinian’ one

 

[Seagull58]

I really would like to propose Zeberdi for The NSC Peace Prize, if there was such a thing.

My hat is doffed to you Sir!

As I mentioned before, a huge issue in the Middle East is the half a million ultra-orthodox Jews in Israel who don't work but spend their days in prayer and study. They are primarily the ones advocating for an enlarged Jewish state covering all the land that they were driven from in Old Testament times (I have no idea on the accuracy of their land claim).

 

[GT49er]

I think you'll find most people feel the importance of events in Israel and Gaza somewhat outweigh some mild disruption in London.

I think you'll also find that the mild disruption in London does nothing at all to alleviate the suffering in Gaza, or assist in any way to end the crisis, or indeed do anything positive at all.
I also think you'll find that if it did any of these things, it would would get a lot of support from most people.

 

[Seagull58]

And yet Israel continues to bomb the south of Gaza despite demanding people move there. Destroying Hamas is one thing but destroying Gaza to do so is nothing short of a war crime.

If Hamas has rocket launchers and command centres in the south (I don't know if they do) then they will also be targeted.

 

[Zeberdi]

Another ‘Free Palestine, from river to see and Jihad’ march in London on Saturday.
3 Saturdays on the bounce disruption has been experienced now.
Is this to be expected as the norm from now?

FACT CHECK

You are incorrect to refer to the marches as ‘Jihad’ marches - Being ‘Palestinian’ doesn’t conflate with being a ‘Jihad’ - Jihadists are radicalised Islamic fundamentalists who use terror and violence to pursue an ideology (distinct from the Palestine cause for freedom and civil liberties) - the people marching in London are overwhelmingly non-supportive of violence and consist of a wide ethnic diversity of protestors - edit look at these images for example

London’s ‘March For Palestine’ draws 100,000 demanding Gaza ceasefire

Pro-Palestine supporters march again in London calling for a ceasefire in Gaza and the safe delivery of aid

www.aljazeera.com

And the chant is ‘from the river to the sea’ - not ‘from the river to see’

Uninformed opinions fail at the first hurdle in the race to impress.

 

[Seagull58]

Seagull58: with all due respect you have your opinion and you seem resolute on that, you may have skin in the game.
I have relatives that were killed by the Nazi war machine in Germany, if I was blinded by hate or not looking at the big picture I’d agree, but I can’t…

I say again two wrongs don’t make a right, peace will never ever ever come to that region with your defence of the Israeli response, which is on no count appropriate. Where should the people leave too ? This is their home…
and if they do they may get bombed on route.
Isreal will take those lands once flattened and those people will never be able to return.
Think about it before you reply, you know that will happen.
displacement of people that have been there for thousands of years is wrong.
who’s land is it ?
Jewish ?
Palestinians ?
Humans ?

it’s just wrong

What part of my "opinion" in the post you quoted above is not factual? I did not express an opinion. I have not said it is justified but stated what is happening and why.

 

[Bakero]

I think you'll also find that the mild disruption in London does nothing at all to alleviate the suffering in Gaza, or assist in any way to end the crisis, or indeed do anything positive at all.
I also think you'll find that if it did any of these things, it would would get a lot of support from most people.

All the time our government and opposition give their unwavering support to any and all Israeli military action, I see the point in demonstrations.

 

[LamieRobertson]

FACT CHECK

You are incorrect to refer to the marches as ‘Jihad’ marches - Being ‘Palestinian’ doesn’t conflate with being a ‘Jihad’ - Jihadists are radicalised Islamic fundamentalists who use terror and violence to pursue an ideology (distinct from the Palestine cause for freedom and civil liberties) - the people marching in London are overwhelmingly non-supportive of violence and consist of a wide ethnic diversity of protestors.

And the chant is ‘from the river to the sea’ - not ‘from the river to see’

Uninformed opinions fail at the first hurdle in the race to impress.

Maybe the poster has confused the chant Jihad with being the same ..the Met of course have told us that this word has many meanings ..although my understanding is that the common association is with terrorism

 

[Bakero]

As I mentioned before, a huge issue in the Middle East is the half a million ultra-orthodox Jews in Israel who don't work but spend their days in prayer and study. They are primarily the ones advocating for an enlarged Jewish state covering all the land that they were driven from in Old Testament times (I have no idea on the accuracy of their land claim).

Unfortunately, they seem to hold major sway and are backed by their nutjob counterparts in the States.

 

[Seagull58]

I think everyone agrees that decapitation with a garden hoe is more shocking than killing some with a bomb. It's more visceral. Perhaps we've become desensitised to airstrikes. The outcome is the same though.

As has been said countless times: the Hamas attacks were awful but they did not happen a vacuum. We can't ignore the historical context.

What you call a "military operation" has thus far resulted in ~2500 dead children in a couple of weeks. Collateral damage, I suppose. At what stage would the asymmetric death toll become too much in your eyes? Not to mention the destruction of homes, schools and businesses.

Lastly, do you have hope that the IDF will eradicate Hamas? What do you envision happening next? The Palestinians peacefully accepting their fate?

At no time have I said I condone, support or justify the Israeli actions. I have offered a description/explanation of what they are compared to the Hamas actions.
As to what I hope for; a 2 state solution with lasting peace. Tragically, there are Arabs whose objective is the destruction of Israel and there are ultra-orthodox jews whose objective is an enlarged Israeli State.

 

[Bakero]

If Hamas has rocket launchers and command centres in the south (I don't know if they do) then they will also be targeted.

Any idea why they've bombed the "safe zones"? https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/...inians-trapped-in-gaza-find-danger-everywhere. And the convoy of evacuees on designated "safe routes"? https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...id-to-leave-home-after-bombing-of-safe-routes