[News] Middle East conflict

[Seagull58]

That's exactly what the IDF would say. However, as you suggest, it's not justified or effective but the other side did worse so hey ho, off you go?

I'm sorry but I don't understand your point.

From a Israeli standpoint, I understand the desire for revenge. It's a normal human reaction. Politicians need to act rationally though and not follow their base desires. The outside world, free from the "tribalism of pain", certainly need to think critically and look for solutions not justify vengeance.

My point was in response to your post about "retributive slaughter". Targeting terrorist combatants and advising civilians to leave the targeted area so that they do not become collateral damage is not the same as gratuitously torturing, raping, murdering and mutilating civilian men, women and children. It is a military operation to eradicate Hamas in Gaza.

 

[Seagull58]

yes

Oh please, two wrongs don’t make a right.
The IDF are targeting…..
An area…

An area where Hamas has infiltrated the civilian residences with rocket launchers, command centres and a tunnel network, using the Palestinians as human shields. Hence the reason the civilians were told to leave the area within 24 hours so that the IDF could destroy the Hamas infrastructure.

 

[Insel affe]

An area where Hamas has infiltrated the civilian residences with rocket launchers, command centres and a tunnel network, using the Palestinians as human shields. Hence the reason the civilians were told to leave the area within 24 hours so that the IDF could destroy the Hamas infrastructure.

Seagull58: with all due respect you have your opinion and you seem resolute on that, you may have skin in the game.
I have relatives that were killed by the Nazi war machine in Germany, if I was blinded by hate or not looking at the big picture I’d agree, but I can’t…

I say again two wrongs don’t make a right, peace will never ever ever come to that region with your defence of the Israeli response, which is on no count appropriate. Where should the people leave too ? This is their home…
and if they do they may get bombed on route.
Isreal will take those lands once flattened and those people will never be able to return.
Think about it before you reply, you know that will happen.
displacement of people that have been there for thousands of years is wrong.
who’s land is it ?
Jewish ?
Palestinians ?
Humans ?

it’s just wrong

 

[Westdene Seagull]

An area where Hamas has infiltrated the civilian residences with rocket launchers, command centres and a tunnel network, using the Palestinians as human shields. Hence the reason the civilians were told to leave the area within 24 hours so that the IDF could destroy the Hamas infrastructure.

And yet Israel continues to bomb the south of Gaza despite demanding people move there. Destroying Hamas is one thing but destroying Gaza to do so is nothing short of a war crime.

 

[Zeberdi]

From a Israeli standpoint, I understand the desire for revenge.…The outside world, free from the "tribalism of pain", certainly need to think critically and look for solutions not justify vengeance.

Yes, quite but if only it were as simple as the World looking on impartially at a conflict confined to a small and distinct geo-political area like a dispassionate referee - I rather think it less reductive than that .

While I don’t disagree - there is an element of ‘revenge’ and ’justification’ in Israel’s response to 10/7 and having a ‘right to defend herself’ against terrorists (at least that is the rhetoric of Israel and the US/UK) or that Hamas attacked Israel in response to her oppressive treatment of the Palestine people - (at least in the pro-Palestinian rhetoric and PR that Hamas would have you believe ), yet I can see a far greater and more insidious narrative at work here …

Hamas have not only actively thwarted peace to the detriment of the people of Palestine since the Oslo Accords but they have done so, by weaponising the long suffering pain felt by Palestinians living under Occupation in order to serve their radical jihadist cause, which has been anything but in the interests of Palestinian civilians - that’s what jihadist radicalisation feeds on - it is an self-justifying ideology that needs to perpetuate a conflict to thrive. Likewise, Netanyahu’s government have weaponised the fear and pain of Israeli citizens directly impacted by sectarian fighting within her borders and in the OPT to pursue a radical Zionist ‘Greater Israel‘ political agenda of her own - and with no intention apparently to ever forge an equitable outcome or recognise a Palestinian statehood in any form - a radical cause that also needs to perpetuate conflict to self-justify itself.

Thus, to me at least, this War is less about the violent expression of ‘tribal pains’ (that is felt by the largely innocent masses) but how that pain has been and continues to be appropriated to conduct a war by those that rule over them in order to serve their own, competing but equally machiavellian, purposes - and they are not the only players here:

Since the Cold War, US and her Western allies have seen Israel as being a crucial strategic influence in the region/Middle East especially to counter Russian/Iranian influence in the Arab world. Post-Cold War, the US has made herself the arbiter of maintaining stability in the region to protect Western interests, which include , among other things, especially for the US, the global oil markets. America continues to pour aid into Israel and remains it’s staunchest ally in the UN Security Council for much the same reason as she did during the Cold-war and even more vigorously in recent years with indications that another Cold War is opening on a new front in Eastern Europe.

How much aid does the US give to Israel?

Israel has received more foreign aid from the US than any other country since WWII.

usafacts.org

Maybe that’s why the roadmap to peace is so complicated and has been so utterly unattainable to date - There is no ‘outside world’ as such - I’m not sure there ever is in today’s geopolitical realities - all wars are global now, if not directly, then by proxy.

 

[wellquickwoody]

In another matter, that may be of interest - the background of the Israeli Ambassador should make people blink:

So - in the past week:

1. The Israeli Ambassador to the UK, Tzipi Hotovely, has denied that Gaza has an humanitarian problem (perhaps the first step to seeing an ‘humanitarian’ crises in Gaza is seeing the people of Gaza as ‘human’, Ms Hotovely?).
2. She called Hamas, the ‘Nazis‘ - (and yet who’s been keeping whom in one large, services-deprived, impoverished ghetto for the last 18 yrs, Ambassador,? But whatever ….)
3. She has also said that the deaths of 1000s upon 1000s of Palestinian civilians from Israel’s bombardment is the fault of Hamas for committing the atrocities in the first place (the inverse logic of a fundamentalist Religious Zionist of course)
4. She has blamed the lack of water and power in Gaza also on Hamas because ‘they are responsible’ for the people of Gaza (uh, no they’re not Shylock, under the Hague Convention, as the Occupying force, Israel is - “ The occupying power has the duty to ensure that the adequate provision of food and medical supplies is provided, as well as clothing, bedding, means of shelter, other supplies essential to the survival of the civilian population of the occupied territory, and objects necessary for religious worship (GCIV Arts. 55, 58; API Art. 69) - (I’m reading that as ‘not setting up an illegal blockade, or bombing all their mosques or cutting off water and food supplies to 2m people in the hope you can starve them‘ into … I dunno…into what, exactly?).
5. She accused Hamas of committing a war crime by keeping them in Gaza - in a war zone - (where were they going to go, you big doofus, into the Med?- because they surely weren’t getting into Egypt at that point…)

There is no humanitarian crisis in Gaza: Israeli ambassador to Britain

'Would you expect your government to think about those Nazis committing those crimes?' says Israeli envoy to UK when asked about humanitarian crisis in Gaza - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

Israel ambassador to UK tells LBC 'Hamas is to blame' for lack of water and power in Gaza

The Israeli Ambassador has accused Hamas of committing a "double war crime" by keeping civilians in a war zone.

www.lbc.co.uk

So, in the interest of transparency, I did some digging to see who it is that the UK Israelis have purportedly fighting their corner and who it is that is representing the interests of Israel to the British Government…(and offering advice on all matters Israel on our mainstream media …)

• Tzipi Hotovely practises orthodox Judaism and is a self-described "religious right-winger" (she is actually a far-right fundamentalist Religious Zionist)
• 2008, 11 November - Hotovely joined Netanyahu’s far right Likud party
• 2013 - she joined the government and as Deputy Foreign Minister to Netanyahu, very publicly rejected the concept of Palestinian statehood instead supported an aggressive expansionist policy for Israel, that would eventually annex the entire OPT to Israel https://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-hits-back-at-us-settlement-expansion-is-not-the-problem/
• 2015 - She doubled down on this in a speech to Israeli diplomats on 22 May 2015, rebuffed criticism from the international community regarding settlement policies - She said: "We need to return to the basic truth of our rights to this country.…This land is ours. All of it is ours. We did not come here to apologise for that …”. "It's my dream to see the Israeli flag flying on the Temple Mount." She added at the time and still maintains : "I think it's the centre of Israeli sovereignty, the capital of Israel, the holiest place for the Jewish people" (It is also the holiest place for Christians and one of 3 top holy sites for Muslims too or does that fail to register in your Ultra-Zionist vision, Madam Foreign Minister ? )
• 2020 - Hotovesly is selected as the Ambassador to the UK (at a time when Netanyahu is announcing plans to annex 30% of the OPT of the West Bank to Israel under the Trump Plan)
• 800 British Jews protest at her appointment- Rabbis and politicians alike called on the British Government to refuse her appointment to the post because of her far-right views and segregationist stance. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...ly-is-chosen-as-next-israeli-ambassador-to-uk
• 2021 - Jewish students in uproar https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/2...face-of-israel-does-not-defend-free-speech-2/
  
  

  'Racism isn’t kosher': British Jews protest ongoing embrace of Israeli ambassador

  Left-wing activists staged a walkout at an event marking Tzipi Hotovely's first year as Israel's U.K. ambassador, in protest at her hardline views and ties to the far right.

  www.972mag.com
• 2022 - ‘Hotovely’s appearance at the London School of Economics (LSE) sparked major controversy. Students protesting her appearance were slammed as anti-Sematic by the mainstream media, senior members of parliament and pro-Israeli groups. An investigation by LSE confirmed that the student had done nothing wrong confirming what many believed at the time that the reaction was feigned to stoke outrage against pro-Palestinian activists.’

So there you have it - The British Ambassador to Israel has, as Netanyahu’s Deputy Foreign Minister, and as Minister of Settlements Affairs, actively pursued policies of a ‘Greater Israel’ through settlement expansion and annexation for the past 10 years, has repeatedly dehumanised and ‘cancel-cultured‘ Palestinians, been frequently accused of racism, not a welcome speaker at our university debating societies, intensely disliked/unpopular with moderate British Jews and is directly representative of the most far-right, fundamentalist government in Israeli history - this Ambassador is not someone you would want anywhere near a ‘peace process’. And yet, the Palestinian Ambassador has been ostracised by our own Foreign Minister, James Cleverly, for accusing Israel of war crimes against civilians.

View attachment 168531

I really would like to propose Zeberdi for The NSC Peace Prize, if there was such a thing.

My hat is doffed to you Sir!

 

[Bakero]

My point was in response to your post about "retributive slaughter". Targeting terrorist combatants and advising civilians to leave the targeted area so that they do not become collateral damage is not the same as gratuitously torturing, raping, murdering and mutilating civilian men, women and children. It is a military operation to eradicate Hamas in Gaza.

I think everyone agrees that decapitation with a garden hoe is more shocking than killing some with a bomb. It's more visceral. Perhaps we've become desensitised to airstrikes. The outcome is the same though.

As has been said countless times: the Hamas attacks were awful but they did not happen a vacuum. We can't ignore the historical context.

What you call a "military operation" has thus far resulted in ~2500 dead children in a couple of weeks. Collateral damage, I suppose. At what stage would the asymmetric death toll become too much in your eyes? Not to mention the destruction of homes, schools and businesses.

Lastly, do you have hope that the IDF will eradicate Hamas? What do you envision happening next? The Palestinians peacefully accepting their fate?

 

[Bakero]

Yes, quite but if only it were as simple as the World looking on impartially at a conflict confined to a small and distinct geo-political area like a dispassionate referee - I rather think it less reductive than that .

While I don’t disagree - there is an element of ‘revenge’ and ’justification’ in Israel’s response to 10/7 and having a ‘right to defend herself’ against terrorists (at least that is the rhetoric of Israel and the US/UK) or that Hamas attacked Israel in response to her oppressive treatment of the Palestine people - (at least in the pro-Palestinian rhetoric and PR that Hamas would have you believe ), yet I can see a far greater and more insidious narrative at work here …

Hamas have not only actively thwarted peace to the detriment of the people of Palestine since the Oslo Accords but they have done so, by weaponising the long suffering pain felt by Palestinians living under Occupation in order to serve their radical jihadist cause, which has been anything but in the interests of Palestinian civilians - that’s what jihadist radicalisation feeds on - it is an self-justifying ideology that needs to perpetuate a conflict to thrive. Likewise, Netanyahu’s government have weaponised the fear and pain of Israeli citizens directly impacted by sectarian fighting within her borders and in the OPT to pursue a radical Zionist ‘Greater Israel‘ political agenda of her own - and with no intention apparently to ever forge an equitable outcome or recognise a Palestinian statehood in any form - a radical cause that also needs to perpetuate conflict to self-justify itself.

Thus, to me at least, this War is less about the violent expression of ‘tribal pains’ (that is felt by the largely innocent masses) but how that pain has been and continues to be appropriated to conduct a war by those that rule over them in order to serve their own, competing but equally machiavellian, purposes - and they are not the only players here:

Since the Cold War, US and her Western allies have seen Israel as being a crucial strategic influence in the region/Middle East especially to counter Russian/Iranian influence in the Arab world. Post-Cold War, the US has made herself the arbiter of maintaining stability in the region to protect Western interests, which include , among other things, especially for the US, the global oil markets. America continues to pour aid into Israel and remains it’s staunchest ally in the UN Security Council for much the same reason as she did during the Cold-war and even more vigorously in recent years with indications that another Cold War is opening on a new front in Eastern Europe.

How much aid does the US give to Israel?

Israel has received more foreign aid from the US than any other country since WWII.

usafacts.org

Maybe that’s why the roadmap to peace is so complicated and has been so utterly unattainable to date - There is no ‘outside world’ as such - I’m not sure there ever is in today’s geopolitical realities - all wars are global now, if not directly, then by proxy.

I fully agree (see my pithy post above on Uncle Sam and the battle for hegemony).

 

[Wokeworrier]

Seagull58: with all due respect you have your opinion and you seem resolute on that, you may have skin in the game.
I have relatives that were killed by the Nazi war machine in Germany, if I was blinded by hate or not looking at the big picture I’d agree, but I can’t…

I say again two wrongs don’t make a right, peace will never ever ever come to that region with your defence of the Israeli response, which is on no count appropriate. Where should the people leave too ? This is their home…
and if they do they may get bombed on route.
Isreal will take those lands once flattened and those people will never be able to return.
Think about it before you reply, you know that will happen.
displacement of people that have been there for thousands of years is wrong.
who’s land is it ?
Jewish ?
Palestinians ?
Humans ?

it’s just wrong

IWhat would you consider an 'appropriate response' to the largest deliberate targeted slaughter of Jews since the holocaust and ongoing indiscriminate rocket attacks?

 

[Insel affe]

IWhat would you consider an 'appropriate response' to the largest deliberate targeted slaughter of Jews since the holocaust and ongoing indiscriminate rocket attacks?

You know what, I don’t know, but it sure as sausages ain’t this.

 

[Westdene Seagull]

I think everyone agrees that decapitation with a garden hoe is more shocking than killing some with a bomb. It's more visceral. Perhaps we've become desensitised to airstrikes. The outcome is the same though.

As has been said countless times: the Hamas attacks were awful but they did not happen a vacuum. We can't ignore the historical context.

What you call a "military operation" has thus far resulted in ~2500 dead children in a couple of weeks. Collateral damage, I suppose. At what stage would the asymmetric death toll become too much in your eyes? Not to mention the destruction of homes, schools and businesses.

Lastly, do you have hope that the IDF will eradicate Hamas? What do you envision happening next? The Palestinians peacefully accepting their fate?

IWhat would you consider an 'appropriate response' to the largest deliberate targeted slaughter of Jews since the holocaust and ongoing indiscriminate rocket attacks?

Appropriately targeted killings of Hamas ( like we did to the IRA ) rather than the mass slaughter and starvation of innocent civilians. Maybe Britian should have obliterated Eire to deal with the IRA ? The only real long lasting solution is peace talks, giving up of the OPTs and a two state solution.

Meant to add- by the IDF over the top actions all they are doing is breeding the next generation of Hamas fighters ..... and so the cycle will continue. Remind me who suggests humans are the intelligent race on earth ?

 

[amexer]

Unfortunately have not learned much on here about any possibility of a solution on here apart aprt from not ending until Israel feel they have finished off Hamas which will result in thousands and thousands of deaths of innocent people Very sad.
Certainly WW2 would have ended if Hitler was killed 2 years earlier. Could the same be said here if able to kill the leaders of Hamas
Somebody please give me some hope for an ending to this.
I read in a book about Stalin that at a meeting with Churchill and USA president months before end of war Stalin said they had thousands of German Officers and were going to shoot them all. Uproar from Churchill who stopped him saying Britain did not act like that

 

[Bakero]

Unfortunately have not learned much on here about any possibility of a solution on here apart aprt from not ending until Israel feel they have finished off Hamas which will result in thousands and thousands of deaths of innocent people Very sad.
Certainly WW2 would have ended if Hitler was killed 2 years earlier. Could the same be said here if able to kill the leaders of Hamas
Somebody please give me some hope for an ending to this.
I read in a book about Stalin that at a meeting with Churchill and USA president months before end of war Stalin said they had thousands of German Officers and were going to shoot them all. Uproar from Churchill who stopped him saying Britain did not act like that

In response to the part in bold, unfortunately, I fear not. This conflict is older than Hamas and is not simply a matter of some bad hombres that need to be taken out.

 

[Bakero]

IWhat would you consider an 'appropriate response' to the largest deliberate targeted slaughter of Jews since the holocaust and ongoing indiscriminate rocket attacks?

What would you consider an 'appropriate response' to 57 years of occupation?

 

[Insel affe]

Unfortunately have not learned much on here about any possibility of a solution on here apart from not ending until Israel feel they have finished off Hamas which will result in thousands and thousands of deaths of innocent people.

Israel will never kill off Hamas, or the ideology of Hamas, all Israel is doing is killing thousands of innocent people and making martyrs of those Hamas killers, and in turn making thousands of children who will one day grow up having seen this devastation and like the poor Israelis killed by Hamas lost loved ones, with hate and anger in their hearts thirsty for revenge.

Sadly the circle comes round, and round and round.

 

[Triggaaar]

Appropriately targeted killings of Hamas ( like we did to the IRA ) rather than the mass slaughter and starvation of innocent civilians. Maybe Britian should have obliterated Eire to deal with the IRA ?

The IRA didn't kill over a thousand civilians in a bombing attack. The IRA's goal was to have a united Ireland, and that has partly been achieved with people in Northern Ireland being able to have an Irish passport and there being free travel between the regions etc. There's also likely to be the option for people in Northern Ireland to vote to join Ireland in the future if that's what they want. Hamas's goal is to remove Israel from the map. That's obviously not something Israel can accept.


Separate from that though, I would like someone from Israel's side to explain why they are occupying parts of Palestine. As long as they're doing that, terrorist groups from Palestine will get sympathy/support.

 

[Wokeworrier]

Appropriately targeted killings of Hamas ( like we did to the IRA ) rather than the mass slaughter and starvation of innocent civilians. Maybe Britian should have obliterated Eire to deal with the IRA ? The only real long lasting solution is peace talks, giving up of the OPTs and a two state solution.

Meant to add- by the IDF over the top actions all they are doing is breeding the next generation of Hamas fighters ..... and so the cycle will continue. Remind me who suggests humans are the intelligent race on earth ?

Thanks for the constructive reply. As we know, Hamas use the Palestinian population as human sheilds placing high value targets (weapon stores command posts, rocket launchers, homes of Hamas leadership) in heavily built up areas so targeted strikes still inevitably leads to civilian casualties. I also think comparisons with the IRA are misguided as our response was in relation to a specific type of threat. If Republican terrorists had just slaughtered 1000 plus UK civilians and continually fired rockets at our cities a full scale military response would be on the way ... rightly so.

 

[WATFORD zero]

Thanks for the constructive reply. As we know, Hamas use the Palestinian population as human sheilds placing high value targets (weapon stores command posts, rocket launchers, homes of Hamas leadership) in heavily built up areas so targeted strikes still inevitably leads to civilian casualties. I also think comparisons with the IRA are misguided as our response was in relation to a specific type of threat. If Republican terrorists had just slaughtered 1000 plus UK civilians and continually fired rockets at our cities a full scale military response would be on the way ... rightly so.

And while we are on constructive debate, what do you think Israel and the west were hoping to achieve when they funded the set up and development of Hamas ?

 

[Zeberdi]

If Republican terrorists had just slaughtered 1000 plus UK civilians and continually fired rockets at our cities a full scale military response would be on the way ...

And that is exactly why, with the involvement of Hezbollah, backed by Iran, Lebanon and Syria , Israel’s continual bombardment of Gaza threatens to escalate into a regional conflict - escalating responses have to stop somewhere …

 

[amexer]

The IRA didn't kill over a thousand civilians in a bombing attack. The IRA's goal was to have a united Ireland, and that has partly been achieved with people in Northern Ireland being able to have an Irish passport and there being free travel between the regions etc. There's also likely to be the option for people in Northern Ireland to vote to join Ireland in the future if that's what they want. Hamas's goal is to remove Israel from the map. That's obviously not something Israel can accept.


Separate from that though, I would like someone from Israel's side to explain why they are occupying parts of Palestine. As long as they're doing that, terrorist groups from Palestine will get sympathy/support.

A question I have asked many times.
Many on here understandably after what Hamas did 100% behind Israel. However surely the solution is something other than killing thousands and thounds