[News] Middle East conflict

[portlock seagull]

This could so easily turn into 'two suns in the sunset'.
We really are at the tipping point.

Willing to bet my house we’re not. This will still be going on long after we’re gone. Lost count of the number in my lifetime alone.

 

[Guinness Boy]

I do not think that at all . However being oppressed for the sake of it is different to restrictions because you are looking to kill people . Completely different .

This is appalling.

The post has been reported, but, on balance, it’s your genuine view and I’ll let it stand and NSC judge you (unless another mod disagrees).

However, I’d like you to tell me how children being phosphorus bombed is ‘being oppressed for the sake of it’.

I’ll wait.

 

[Machiavelli]

Hamas are backed by Iran as well, they took control in a power struggle with the PLO. It was done deliberately so that they have fronts in the north, part of the east and part of south west

I know that Hamas took power in a struggle with the PLO but that has got diddly squat to do with Iran backing Hamas.
Hamas took power because the Palestinians are desperate and they are now even more desperate and will pay a terrible price for what they have done.

 

[clapham_gull]

Bit of an odd statement. Israel was created through terrorism after all.

I always say to young idealistic people that if you take a side in the Israel / Palestine problem you've already lost the argument.

 

[knekkebrød]

I always say to young idealistic people that if you take a side in the Israel / Palestine problem you've already lost the argument.

If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.

Desmond Tutu

 

[BadFish]

You decline to pick a side . Big show of support for Israel today from the governments of UK, USA, European Union , Ukraine , Australia , India etc

That not good enough for you to decide who to support ?

It's not a football match.

Reminds me of this

How do you decide who to support? To 'support' either side in this you have to disregard a whole load of atrocities. Most of the Israel 'supporters' on this thread seem to ignore the apartied/occupation and land grab of the agreed Palestinian lands, the UN resolutions against them and all of the Israeli atrocities committed To 'support' Palestine you have to disregard the fact that they are represented by terrorist groups and ignore the rockets that kill innocent Israelis and the fact that they are supported by some highly dubious governments.

As we are not watching a film or supporting event I think I will 'support' the innocent people caught in the middle of this hell and hope that those making the decisions can put aside the wishes of their respective sky fairies (actually it's the same one - it's more the spokesmen for the sky fairies) and sort this shit out.

 

[clapham_gull]

If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor. If an elephant has its foot on the tail of a mouse and you say that you are neutral, the mouse will not appreciate your neutrality.

Desmond Tutu

Surprised you didn't resort to a meme as well Twitter Boy, seemingly unable to express yourself in your own words like I did.

Like many on here I lived under the threat of IRA terrorism in the 70s/80s/90s. Unlike most on here they nearly killed me, but that's another story.

At that time I was fully supportive of Irish unification and very anti the British Government response to the problem. And then they nearly blew me to pieces.

Did my view on Northern Ireland change ? Not the slightest but I realised that killing people gets you nowhere, especially if your bombs equally target those who are sympathetic.

Neutrality ? Shut the f*** up. Neither side seem capable of a wanting a resolution and blowing each up to bits will get each nowhere.

Likening the situation to South Africa simply exposes your historical ignorance.

 

[Steve Foster]

Just read this from an Israeli citizen:

A relative comparison to Israelis murdered today would be, 7,300 people in the USA.

1,500 people in Britain.

Unfathomable what is happening here.

World sympathy will last for a bit and then they will justify it because: "the occupation".

For both historical and statistical reasons, this is our 9/11

 

[Zeberdi]

Hamas took power because the Palestinians are desperate and they are now even more desperate and will pay a terrible price for what they have done.

And that’s the whole rub right there … an exponential increase in violent conflict

Israel will never permit the establishment of an Palestinian State on her borders while it is under the leadership of Hamas, a militant party committed to armed resistance and to a ‘river to sea’ restoration of ’all’ historic Palestinian territories in a One Islamic State solution and who shows no signs of changing its militant response to the Occupation. Palestinian public support for Hamas is by no means unanimous (and varies throughout the OPT) but it increases every time Israel uses a sledgehammer to crack a nut and carries out ’punishment’ shelling in Gaza or expels Palestinians from East Jerusalem or raids the Al Aqsa Mosque etc

It is not even clear anymore that the Palestinians would support a two state solution, largely in belief that incursion of Jewish settlements in the OPT have made that impossible and partly because Hamas, largely backed by Iran ( who very likely has been the agent provocateur behind todays attack on Israel) refuses to even recognise the State of Israel.

Iran’s support for Hamas fans suspicion it’s wrecking Israel-Saudi deal

Tehran’s remarks will feed speculation Iran is whipping up conflict to prevent a US-brokered normalization of Saudi-Israeli ties.

www.politico.eu

 

[sparkie]

So?

He is wrong

He's not. Zelensky has a very clear idea and experience about attacks on citizens by murderous aggressors.

 

[BadFish]

And that’s the whole rub right there … an exponential increase in violent conflict

Israel will never permit the establishment of an Palestinian State on her borders while it is under the leadership of Hamas,

The question is: Would they halt the occupation and return to UN sanctioned borders if Hamas were not in power?

I stand to be corrected but my understanding here is that the answer is 'no' and they are possibly more likely to increase atrocities and occupation without resistance.

So we are at a stalemate.

 

[clapham_gull]

For both historical and statistical reasons, this is our 9/11

It isn't either and really really doesn't help. The flip side of your argument is that a life Israel is worth x times 1 in another country which feed into all sorts of conspiracy theories I'm sure you are aware of.

Any single loss of life in this conflict is a tragedy. As I get older I get increasingly annoyed with both sides or as one moron suggests above "neutrality".

 

[wellquickwoody]

Just read this from an Israeli citizen:

A relative comparison to Israelis murdered today would be, 7,300 people in the USA.

1,500 people in Britain.

Unfathomable what is happening here.

World sympathy will last for a bit and then they will justify it because: "the occupation".

For both historical and statistical reasons, this is our 9/11

What will the figures be for Gaza/Palestinians once the Israeli reaction is completed? I would suggest they will be comparatively far higher.

 

[knekkebrød]

Surprised you didn't resort to a meme as well Twitter Boy, seemingly unable to express yourself in your own words like I did.

Moron.

Like many on here I lived under the threat of IRA terrorism in the 70s/80s/90s. Unlike most on here they nearly killed me, but that's another story.

At that time I was fully supportive of Irish unification and very anti the British Government response to the problem. And then they nearly blew me to pieces.

Did my view on Northern Ireland change ? Not the slightest but I realised that killing people gets you nowhere, especially if your bombs equally target those who are sympathetic.

Neutrality ? Shut the f*** up. Neither side seem capable of a wanting a resolution and blowing each up to bits will get each nowhere.

Likening the situation to South Africa simply exposes your historical ignorance.

Twitter Boy? Moron? Why resort to childish behaviour?

I choose side with the civilians living under occupation.
With the civilians that have had their homes and land stolen,
With the civilians that are denied the right to harvest from their own land
With the civilians living under an illegal blockade,
With the civilians that are denied the right to do bussiness and and provide for their families
With the children that are victims of random arrests
With the civilians that ar denied the right to travel freely in their own country
Witch civilians that are denied the right to a future
With a country that is a victim of an oppressor who decides to colonize the land with an ever increasing number of illegal settlements
To mention some.

Their leaders? Not so much.
I'm not happy with the corruption in Fatah, I'm not happy islamists like Hamas and islamic jihad have gained such popularity.
But do you know what? These are unfortunate facts. Not what the conflict between Israel and Palestine is about.

Israel is holding all the power.
Israel is pushing to make the palestinian state impossible
Israeli politicians made this apartheid state

 

[BadFish]

What will the figures be for Gaza/Palestinians once the Israeli reaction is completed? I would suggest they will be comparatively far higher.

Stats since 2008 certainly suggest so. This suggests it isn't an 'even' conflict.

 

[Zeberdi]

The question is: Would they halt the occupation and return to UN sanctioned borders if Hamas were not in power?

I stand to be corrected but my understanding here is that the answer is 'no' and they are possibly more likely to increase atrocities and occupation without resistance.

So we are at a stalemate.

No you are right, it’s unlikely the Jewish settlements will be relinquished under Netanyahu - the most one could hope from his cabinet for is no further incursions as part of a wider package- unfortunately to date, all offers from Israel of peace accords have heavily favoured the Israeli’s.

I don’t think we are quite at a stalemate though - there are pragmatic ways forward to building bridges and understanding between Israel and the Palestinian living in the OTP without a commitment to changing the geo-political boundaries or heads of State, not least removing some of the sanctions and blockades, providing humanitarian assistance, healthcare and food production investment, financial investment for Palestinian businesses etc and restoring at least some religious, civil and social rights to Palestinians in the OTP, such as some of those enjoyed by their Jewish neighbours.

 

[knekkebrød]

He's not. Zelensky has a very clear idea and experience about attacks on citizens by murderous aggressors.

Yes, he does know how it is to have parts of the country occupied. But in this conflict Palestine is "the ukraine", and Israel is "the Russia".

 

[BadFish]

No you are right, it’s unlikely the Jewish settlements will be relinquished under Netanyahu - the most one could hope from his cabinet for is no further incursions as part of a wider package- unfortunately to date, all offers from Israel of peace accords have heavily favoured the Israeli’s.

I don’t think we are quite at a stalemate though - there are pragmatic ways forward to building bridges and understanding between Israel and the Palestinian living in the OTP without a commitment to changing the geo-political boundaries or heads of State, not least removing some of the sanctions and blockades, providing humanitarian assistance, healthcare and food production investment, financial investment for Palestinian businesses etc and restoring at least some religious, civil and social rights to Palestinians in the OTP, such as some of those enjoyed by their Jewish neighbours.

I don't feel as optimistic as you about this. Is there something you have read that shows this as a possibility?

 

[Hugo Rune]

What will the figures be for Gaza/Palestinians once the Israeli reaction is completed? I would suggest they will be comparatively far higher.

Stats since 2008 certainly suggest so. This suggests it isn't an 'even' conflict.

Based on that, I’d be multiplying the number of Israelis murdered in today’s abhorrent attack by around 22.3 to get the amount of dead Palestinians once this ‘war’ is over. I’m guessing that only a tiny fraction will be those who have instigated today’s violence.

This is why this conflict will go on and on.

 

[knekkebrød]

The question is: Would they halt the occupation and return to UN sanctioned borders if Hamas were not in power?

I stand to be corrected but my understanding here is that the answer is 'no' and they are possibly more likely to increase atrocities and occupation without resistance.

So we are at a stalemate.

Hamas are not in power. Mahmoud Abbas and Fatah remained in power despite loosing the election many years ago.

Hamas are in control over Gaza, but Israel had more than 50 years to accept the palestinian state before Hamas rose to become such a big player in Palestine