[News] Middle East conflict

[PILTDOWN MAN]

Crucial facts that are generally forgotten ^

And missing many other facts. The dissolving of the mandate of 1917 by Britain in 1948 with Israel then declaring itself an Independent State. Britain then running the hell out of there as quickly as possible. The UN resolution 181 was for TWO independent States and a neutral Jerusalem. The Arabs failed to turn up and refused, the Zionists saw it as the start of an expansion program.

Those that say Israel was created in 1947 often forget to add the second independent state was also.

It's only fair to be balanced in one's views.

Since 1947 many innocent people of both sides have suffered horrendously. The newly formed UN failed completely in its first main resolution. Loads and loads of facts going back to the Ottoman empire, the French, the British, the Belfour Declaration and so on.

 

[Steve Foster]

The history of Gaza & Israel:

Here are some quick points:

1.Israel was attacked from Gaza everyday from 1948-1967

2. 1967 Egypt and the Gazans massed their troops on the Israeli Border and announced “We will throw the Jews into the sea” and stepped up attacks.

3. Israel counter attacked and captured Gaza. The same exact thing happened in the West Bank and Golan Heights at the same time. Israel has since ceded the Sinai back to Egypt for a lasting peace.

4. Israel captured the territories that were never part of any country since the end of WW1 when it was a part of the now defunct Ottoman Empire.

5. Israel offered the people living in these territories independence in 1968 in exchange for peace. They were rejected.

6. Terrorism began by the Palestinians backed by the Soviets against the international civilians and Israeli civilians

7. Israel starts building settlements inside these territories to act as a front line defence

8. Due to international pressure, Israel withdrew unilaterally from Gaza without any blockade and left them thriving businesses to use in 2005.

9. Hamas took over and burned down all the businesses and held elections and won the election. Jimmy Carter oversaw the election and said they were fair. They rounded up the opposition parties and executed them. That was 2006. There has not been another election since.

10. Weapons started to flow into Gaza, so Israel blockaded Gaza but allows, to right up until this war, all goods to come in, except weapons and materials used to make weapons. Israel also provides Gaza with clean water and electricity.

11. Gaza was and is the largest receiver of international aid per capita than any other place on earth, other than Ukrainian recently. Hamas uses this aid, YOUR tax payer funds to build weapons, tunnels and smuggle weapons to murder Israeli children instead of building the infrastructure for their own children that ISRAEL provides for them.

12. Since 2005 Israel did not have 1 soldier or civilian occupying Gaza

13. Hamas is using their population, who also support them for the most part, as human shields despite the fact that Israel calls all the civilians on their cell phones and tell them to clear out certain areas before they attack. What other military does that? America? UK? Russia?

Lastly, Israeli civilians have been attacked by missiles and terrorists every year since they have withdrawn from Gaza in various waves of strength. They could have made peace with Israel at any time since 1948. Israel is done. No more. No more aid. No more food, water or electricity = No more Hamas. This was a Holocaust, a pogrom. Israel will continue this fight for its survival now until Hamas, who are ISIS barbarians is no more. Anyone who says otherwise is simply an antisemite. There is no in between. There is no defending them. They are not your friends or Jeremy Corbyn’s.

 

[borat]

Michael Brooks (RIP) a Jewish writer and broadcaster spoke about the moral complexities (not the complexity of a solution to the issues)

He poses a powerful thought experiment

 

[Krafty]

I will just say this, neither party is going away, so if you cannot remove from your published policies, the desire to deny and destroy the existence of a UN ratified democratic state, how can you complain when said democratic state does everything in its power to give it's citizens a safe and secure environment to live and work.

If you are referring to Hamas and their torturous methods in trying to destroy the state of Israel then I agree that what the militants are doing is horrendous, and the Jewish nation has a right to defend their innocent civilians.
That being said, it does not excuse the fact that Israel has also caused great damage to Palestine and I think they should also be criticised. All in all, what I'm saying is that there has been huge human tragedy inflicted by Hamas and the Israeli authorities; they should both be held responsible for their actions.

 

[BadFish]

The history of Gaza & Israel:

Here are some quick points:

1.Israel was attacked from Gaza everyday from 1948-1967

2. 1967 Egypt and the Gazans massed their troops on the Israeli Border and announced “We will throw the Jews into the sea” and stepped up attacks.

3. Israel counter attacked and captured Gaza. The same exact thing happened in the West Bank and Golan Heights at the same time. Israel has since ceded the Sinai back to Egypt for a lasting peace.

4. Israel captured the territories that were never part of any country since the end of WW1 when it was a part of the now defunct Ottoman Empire.

5. Israel offered the people living in these territories independence in 1968 in exchange for peace. They were rejected.

6. Terrorism began by the Palestinians backed by the Soviets against the international civilians and Israeli civilians

7. Israel starts building settlements inside these territories to act as a front line defence

8. Due to international pressure, Israel withdrew unilaterally from Gaza without any blockade and left them thriving businesses to use in 2005.

9. Hamas took over and burned down all the businesses and held elections and won the election. Jimmy Carter oversaw the election and said they were fair. They rounded up the opposition parties and executed them. That was 2006. There has not been another election since.

10. Weapons started to flow into Gaza, so Israel blockaded Gaza but allows, to right up until this war, all goods to come in, except weapons and materials used to make weapons. Israel also provides Gaza with clean water and electricity.

11. Gaza was and is the largest receiver of international aid per capita than any other place on earth, other than Ukrainian recently. Hamas uses this aid, YOUR tax payer funds to build weapons, tunnels and smuggle weapons to murder Israeli children instead of building the infrastructure for their own children that ISRAEL provides for them.

12. Since 2005 Israel did not have 1 soldier or civilian occupying Gaza

13. Hamas is using their population, who also support them for the most part, as human shields despite the fact that Israel calls all the civilians on their cell phones and tell them to clear out certain areas before they attack. What other military does that? America? UK? Russia?

Lastly, Israeli civilians have been attacked by missiles and terrorists every year since they have withdrawn from Gaza in various waves of strength. They could have made peace with Israel at any time since 1948. Israel is done. No more. No more aid. No more food, water or electricity = No more Hamas. This was a Holocaust, a pogrom. Israel will continue this fight for its survival now until Hamas, who are ISIS barbarians is no more. Anyone who says otherwise is simply an antisemite. There is no in between. There is no defending them. They are not your friends or Jeremy Corbyn’s.

My word this post is depressing. Post some dubious and highly one eyed 'facts' without citation or reference and then attempt to prevent any discussion or contention of said 'facts' with a preemtive accusation of anti semitism.

Mad.

My understanding on this subject is limited but this post leaves me sure that there is little worth learning from you.

 

[Krafty]

My word this post is depressing. Post some dubious and highly one eyed 'facts' without citation or reference and then attempt to prevent any discussion or contention of said 'facts' with a preemtive accusation of anti semitism.

Yes, that is what I thought too of that post by @Steve Foster.

I would highly recommend to anyone that you should watch this video by Vox (previously shared on here) which explains a brief, simple history of the Israeli-Palestine conflict; it may have been posted several years ago but it is still relevant to this day.



The comments underneath the video are also worth reading.

 

[BadFish]

Yes, that is what I thought too of that post by @Steve Foster.

I would highly recommend watching this video by Vox (previously shared on here) which explains a brief, simple history of the Israeli-Palestine conflict; it may have been posted several years ago but it is still relevant to this day.



The comments underneath the video are also worth reading.

I have watched that before and also read a couple of books on the subject so have a working knowledge (although more from one side than the other).

I will watch that again though and when I have some more time and also read @Zeberdi s post in more detail.

 

[Zeberdi]

The middle east won't explode, the Nations that have attacked Israel in the past, will not do so now, they know Israel will knock them back into the stone age with air and missile power in double quick time.... Egypt won't, Lebanon can't, Syria can't anymore, Jordan won't.... only Iran are motivated enough, but they know from bitter past experience that the Israelis will destroy their infrastructure before an Iranian soldier got anywhere near invading....

I agree the current Israel-Hamas War is a way off from what can be described as an ‘explosion’ in the Middle East nor yet escalating into a major ‘war’ - that is, in the sense that most people would perceive to be a regional Middle Eastern War such cf to the Gulf War in 1991 and the Iraq War in 2003 and calmer heads will hopefully prevail with the normalisation of relationships between the West and the Arab world playing a crucial role in that.

However, the nature of fighting wars in the Middle East has changed since 9/11 and I would exercise caution in downplaying the very real risk of the Israel-Hamas spilling over into a brutal regional and protracted destabilising conflict in the ME adding to the already devastating humanitarian crisis impacting civilian populations throughout the region including already btw, the civilian population of Gaza directly related to living under conditions relating to Israel’s post 1967 illegal occupation…

The impact of fighting an enemy that has no boundaries but is inextricably linked to the culture and religion of the people these groups purport to be fighting for has endless nuances and complexities when it comes to ‘crushing’ or ‘conquering’ them / not least that the post 9/11 War on Terror (which still has no exit strategy and scope for endless mission creeps). The World according to post-9/11, has shown us invariably, that where the ideological aims and political objectives of terrorist groups have been shared, albeit in a less extreme, non-violent way, by Parties/Rulers that hold the balance of power in countries/states that have diverse indigenous or migrant populations that are deeply divided both on ethnic and religious ideology are geo-political areas that otherwise would collapse into civil wars with devastating consequences for all involved - leading to mass movement of populations, and massive refugee and humanitarian crises.

The atrocities and absolutely heinous way terror groups seek to achieve their goals means we must absolutely stop and crush them but Westernised governments must do so in a way that doesn’t risk further radicalisation of the same populations that these groups are generated from.

Whether one thinks the Israel-Hamas War will escalate into a major Middle Eastern war or not, it’s already a War on Humanity on both sides as all wars are.

Israel would support a two state solution,

In what form - ?? From what I can see Israel’s ‘offers’ on the table in ‘two state’ proposals have been to offer quasi-apartheid solutions for Israel to safeguard both her borders and ethnic identity as a Jewish State - especially under the Netanyahu who is, incidentally, incrementally rolling back the civil liberties of its own people and introducing Theocratic policies that are pandering to extreme right wing Religious Zionism in his own cabinet - - He is increasingly being regarded by the international community that he can’t be trusted to commit to a ‘State’ solution for the Palestinians that fully recognises their right to determination, the right and means to defend herself and trade arrangements that ensures economic prosperity or at least stability. Netanyahu is rapidly becoming a stumbling block to a peaceful settlement to the Palestinian question and to think otherwise suggests a lack of comprehension of the complexities involved. The failure of 50 years of peace negations failing to find a resolution that both Palestinian (and the resistant axis to Israel’s occupation ie Syria,Lebanon and Iran) and Israel ( and her Western allies) can live with, can NOT be laid solely at the feet of the Palestinians and can NOT solely be attributed to the Islamic fundamental terrorists operating in the region.

Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah and even Islamic Jihad have zero desire to settle, they simply want Israel and the Jews exterminated.....

Fatah denounced terrorism in 1988 and is no longer designated terrorist by any government … so to lump them in with Hamas is dis-information.

It would be would be a very unsophisticated view of geopolitics in the ME as to describe our ‘enemy’ ie Islamic fundamentalist ‘terrorists’ as being on one side of a moral absolutist position on how to settle the Occupation of Palestinian territory and Israel on the other - as well as dangerously imperialistic. It would be even more dangerous and actually islamophobic to lump all Palestines currently living within Israel and the Occupied Palestine Territories a an homogenous group ‘that have no desire to settle’

I agree that Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorist groups have the extermination of Jews in their charter ( so does Neo-nazism and the heinous resurgence of that ideology ) but that’s never going to happen- there are 16.1 million Jews (from the 8 billion World population (with about 9.5 million in Israel) - so while that heinous ideology informs and drives their terrorism - the climate of fear that can be generated from an over emphasis on what is such an idealist and unachievable objective can create insurmountable obstacles for any peace negotiations moving forward and can even be appropriated as propaganda to avoid engage with the peace process and to bolster a far-right position. As far as Israel itself being ‘exterminated’ - that’s also pie in the sky ideology that while it can inform and drive radical extremism terrorism- non-State terrorism will never be an existential threat to the State of Israel.

The fundamentalist extremist terror groups may have ‘no desire to settle’ but the Palestinian people do and for that reason alone, Netanyahu and his supporters must be careful not to use Islamic radical extremism as a justification for stalling/pulling out of ongoing peace efforts in the region or from seriously committing to an equitable lasting peace plan

on the other side, only the ultra-extreme orthodox Jewish groups oppose a settlement of any sort with the Palestinians.... they number 8-10%>>> significant, but actually, only a small % if those would cause any real trouble.

I think there has been plenty of testimony, political analysis and historical references on this thread so they don’t need repeating that argue the validity of that assertion - both for secular Jews, Palestinians, Christians and other ethnic groups living within Israel and in the Occupied Territories under Netanyahu’s Government. In that context, I am looking at the current maps of Israel and the lands of Palestine since 1948/1967 and wondering which of the extremist factions you have mentioned is closer to achieving their idealistic goals?


“The biggest change to Israel's frontiers came in 1967, when the conflict known as the Six Day War left Israel in occupation of the Sinai peninsula, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, East Jerusalem and most of the Syrian Golan Heights - effectively tripling the size of territory under Israel's control. Israel effectively annexed East Jerusalem - claiming the whole of the city as its capital - and the Golan Heights.
These moves were not recognised by the international community, until the US changed its official position on the matter under the Trump administration, becoming the first major power to do so.”

Israel's borders explained in maps

The conflict between Israel and Palestinians has roots which precede the formation of the country itself. Here's how the shape of the Jewish state has changed.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[shingle]

The old city of Jerusalem will be a major flashpoint tomorrow should the Israelis let Friday prayers go ahead at the Al Aqsa. I've seen it in the past a few times when the situation was nowhere near as volatile as it is now.

 

[LamieRobertson]

If you are referring to Hamas and their torturous methods in trying to destroy the state of Israel then I agree that what the militants are doing is horrendous, and the Jewish nation has a right to defend their innocent civilians.
That being said, it does not excuse the fact that Israel has also caused great damage to Palestine and I think they should also be criticised. All in all, what I'm saying is that there has been huge human tragedy inflicted by Hamas and the Israeli authorities; they should both be held responsible for their actions.

In general terms that Sums things up nicely mine and I’m GUESSING many others point of view.

If only i could type such lengthy informative posts as Zeberdi

 

[sparkie]

I agree the current Israel-Hamas War is a way off from what can be described as an ‘explosion’ in the Middle East nor yet escalating into a major ‘war’ - that is, in the sense that most people would perceive to be a regional Middle Eastern War such cf to the Gulf War in 1991 and the Iraq War in 2003 and calmer heads will hopefully prevail with the normalisation of relationships between the West and the Arab world playing a crucial role in that.

However, the nature of fighting wars in the Middle East has changed since 9/11 and I would exercise caution in downplaying the very real risk of the Israel-Hamas spilling over into a brutal regional and protracted destabilising conflict in the ME adding to the already devastating humanitarian crisis impacting civilian populations throughout the region including already btw, the civilian population of Gaza directly related to living under conditions relating to Israel’s post 1967 illegal occupation…

The impact of fighting an enemy that has no boundaries but is inextricably linked to the culture and religion of the people these groups purport to be fighting for has endless nuances and complexities when it comes to ‘crushing’ or ‘conquering’ them / not least that the post 9/11 War on Terror (which still has no exit strategy and scope for endless mission creeps). The World according to post-9/11, has shown us invariably, that where the ideological aims and political objectives of terrorist groups have been shared, albeit in a less extreme, non-violent way, by Parties/Rulers that hold the balance of power in countries/states that have diverse indigenous or migrant populations that are deeply divided both on ethnic and religious ideology are geo-political areas that otherwise would collapse into civil wars with devastating consequences for all involved - leading to mass movement of populations, and massive refugee and humanitarian crises.

The atrocities and absolutely heinous way terror groups seek to achieve their goals means we must absolutely stop and crush them but Westernised governments must do so in a way that doesn’t risk further radicalisation of the same populations that these groups are generated from.

Whether one thinks the Israel-Hamas War will escalate into a major Middle Eastern war or not, it’s already a War on Humanity on both sides as all wars are.


In what form - ?? From what I can see Israel’s ‘offers’ on the table in ‘two state’ proposals have been to offer quasi-apartheid solutions for Israel to safeguard both her borders and ethnic identity as a Jewish State - especially under the Netanyahu who is, incidentally, incrementally rolling back the civil liberties of its own people and introducing Theocratic policies that are pandering to extreme right wing Religious Zionism in his own cabinet - - He is increasingly being regarded by the international community that he can’t be trusted to commit to a ‘State’ solution for the Palestinians that fully recognises their right to determination, the right and means to defend herself and trade arrangements that ensures economic prosperity or at least stability. Netanyahu is rapidly becoming a stumbling block to a peaceful settlement to the Palestinian question and to think otherwise suggests a lack of comprehension of the complexities involved. The failure of 50 years of peace negations failing to find a resolution that both Palestinian (and the resistant axis to Israel’s occupation ie Syria,Lebanon and Iran) and Israel ( and her Western allies) can live with, can NOT be laid solely at the feet of the Palestinians and can NOT solely be attributed to the Islamic fundamental terrorists operating in the region.


Fatah denounced terrorism in 1988 and is no longer designated terrorist by any government … so to lump them in with Hamas is dis-information.

It would be would be a very unsophisticated view of geopolitics in the ME as to describe our ‘enemy’ ie Islamic fundamentalist ‘terrorists’ as being on one side of a moral absolutist position on how to settle the Occupation of Palestinian territory and Israel on the other - as well as dangerously imperialistic. It would be even more dangerous and actually islamophobic to lump all Palestines currently living within Israel and the Occupied Palestine Territories a an homogenous group ‘that have no desire to settle’

I agree that Islamic Fundamentalist Terrorist groups have the extermination of Jews in their charter ( so does Neo-nazism and the heinous resurgence of that ideology ) but that’s never going to happen- there are 8 Billion Jews worldwide (with about 9.5 million in Israel) - so while that heinous ideology informs and drives their terrorism - the climate of fear that can be generated from an over emphasis on what is such an idealist and unachievable objective can create insurmountable obstacles for any peace negotiations moving forward and can even be appropriated as propaganda to avoid engage with the peace process and to bolster a far-right position. As far as Israel itself being ‘exterminated’ - that’s also pie in the sky ideology that while it can inform and drive radical extremism terrorism- non-State terrorism will never be an existential threat to the State of Israel.

The fundamentalist extremist terror groups may have ‘no desire to settle’ but the Palestinian people do and for that reason alone, Netanyahu and his supporters must be careful not to use Islamic radical extremism as a justification for stalling/pulling out of ongoing peace efforts in the region or from seriously committing to an equitable lasting peace plan



I think there has been plenty of testimony, political analysis and historical references on this thread so they don’t need repeating that argue the validity of that assertion - both for secular Jews, Palestinians, Christians and other ethnic groups living within Israel and in the Occupied Territories under Netanyahu’s Government. In that context, I am looking at the current maps of Israel and the lands of Palestine since 1948/1967 and wondering which of the extremist factions you have mentioned is closer to achieving their idealistic goals?


“The biggest change to Israel's frontiers came in 1967, when the conflict known as the Six Day War left Israel in occupation of the Sinai peninsula, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, East Jerusalem and most of the Syrian Golan Heights - effectively tripling the size of territory under Israel's control. Israel effectively annexed East Jerusalem - claiming the whole of the city as its capital - and the Golan Heights.
These moves were not recognised by the international community, until the US changed its official position on the matter under the Trump administration, becoming the first major power to do so.”

Israel's borders explained in maps

The conflict between Israel and Palestinians has roots which precede the formation of the country itself. Here's how the shape of the Jewish state has changed.

www.bbc.co.uk

View attachment 167971

The World's total population is 8 Billion. So 8 Billion Jews doesn't seem correct.

 

[Zeberdi]

The World's total population is 8 Billion. So 8 Billion Jews doesn't seem correct.

Yeah sorry, typo, was typing on a phone and deleted/badly typed bits of the sentence- What it should say is there are 16.1 million c. roughly 0.2% of the 8 billion World population!

 

[LamieRobertson]

The history of Gaza & Israel:

Here are some quick points:

1.Israel was attacked from Gaza everyday from 1948-1967

2. 1967 Egypt and the Gazans massed their troops on the Israeli Border and announced “We will throw the Jews into the sea” and stepped up attacks.

3. Israel counter attacked and captured Gaza. The same exact thing happened in the West Bank and Golan Heights at the same time. Israel has since ceded the Sinai back to Egypt for a lasting peace.

4. Israel captured the territories that were never part of any country since the end of WW1 when it was a part of the now defunct Ottoman Empire.

5. Israel offered the people living in these territories independence in 1968 in exchange for peace. They were rejected.

6. Terrorism began by the Palestinians backed by the Soviets against the international civilians and Israeli civilians

7. Israel starts building settlements inside these territories to act as a front line defence

8. Due to international pressure, Israel withdrew unilaterally from Gaza without any blockade and left them thriving businesses to use in 2005.

9. Hamas took over and burned down all the businesses and held elections and won the election. Jimmy Carter oversaw the election and said they were fair. They rounded up the opposition parties and executed them. That was 2006. There has not been another election since.

10. Weapons started to flow into Gaza, so Israel blockaded Gaza but allows, to right up until this war, all goods to come in, except weapons and materials used to make weapons. Israel also provides Gaza with clean water and electricity.

11. Gaza was and is the largest receiver of international aid per capita than any other place on earth, other than Ukrainian recently. Hamas uses this aid, YOUR tax payer funds to build weapons, tunnels and smuggle weapons to murder Israeli children instead of building the infrastructure for their own children that ISRAEL provides for them.

12. Since 2005 Israel did not have 1 soldier or civilian occupying Gaza

13. Hamas is using their population, who also support them for the most part, as human shields despite the fact that Israel calls all the civilians on their cell phones and tell them to clear out certain areas before they attack. What other military does that? America? UK? Russia?

Lastly, Israeli civilians have been attacked by missiles and terrorists every year since they have withdrawn from Gaza in various waves of strength. They could have made peace with Israel at any time since 1948. Israel is done. No more. No more aid. No more food, water or electricity = No more Hamas. This was a Holocaust, a pogrom. Israel will continue this fight for its survival now until Hamas, who are ISIS barbarians is no more. Anyone who says otherwise is simply an antisemite. There is no in between. There is no defending them. They are not your friends or Jeremy Corbyn’s.

So you are going for 13/0 in the score predictor?

 

[Bakero]

The World's total population is 8 Billion. So 8 Billion Jews doesn't seem correct.

Pretty sure that was a typo.

Yeah sorry, typo, was typing on a phone and deleted/badly typed bits of the sentence- What it should say is there are 16.1 million c. roughly 2% of the 8 billion World population!

Think that's another typo. 16 million out of 8 billion is about 0.2%

 

[Zeberdi]

In general terms that Sums things up nicely mine and I’m GUESSING many others point of view.

If only i could type such lengthy informative posts as Zeberdi

some of mine have been much shorter

 

[Zeberdi]

Pretty sure that was a typo.


Think that's another typo. 16 million out of 8 billion is about 0.2%

bollicks - will edit again

 

[Hamilton]

It’s interesting to see the double standards in UK media interviews

Anyone who is interviewed who is on the pro-Palestinian side who says “the killing of Palestinian kids is bad” is immediately challenged with “BUT DID YOU SEE WHAT HAPPENED ON SATURDAY?? DO YOU CONDEMN THAT?? WHY SHOULDN’T ISRAEL DEFEND ITSELF??”

However anyone who is interviewed on the pro-Israeli side is never asked about what is happening to the innocent civilians of Gaza, either since Saturday or before it.

The whole thing is a mess but it takes two to tango, last Saturday was not an attack out of the blue on a nation which was committed to peace and harmony.

Is that true in its entirety? I've heard a lot of stuff on Radio 4 about pro-Palestinian rallies and voices saying that what the Israeli government is doing is unjustified when it comes to the Gaza population.

Same with Channel 4 news and Sky News.

I can't speak for the press as I don't read it.

 

[chimneys]

The history of Gaza & Israel:

Here are some quick points:

1.Israel was attacked from Gaza everyday from 1948-1967

2. 1967 Egypt and the Gazans massed their troops on the Israeli Border and announced “We will throw the Jews into the sea” and stepped up attacks.

3. Israel counter attacked and captured Gaza. The same exact thing happened in the West Bank and Golan Heights at the same time. Israel has since ceded the Sinai back to Egypt for a lasting peace.

4. Israel captured the territories that were never part of any country since the end of WW1 when it was a part of the now defunct Ottoman Empire.

5. Israel offered the people living in these territories independence in 1968 in exchange for peace. They were rejected.

6. Terrorism began by the Palestinians backed by the Soviets against the international civilians and Israeli civilians

7. Israel starts building settlements inside these territories to act as a front line defence

8. Due to international pressure, Israel withdrew unilaterally from Gaza without any blockade and left them thriving businesses to use in 2005.

9. Hamas took over and burned down all the businesses and held elections and won the election. Jimmy Carter oversaw the election and said they were fair. They rounded up the opposition parties and executed them. That was 2006. There has not been another election since.

10. Weapons started to flow into Gaza, so Israel blockaded Gaza but allows, to right up until this war, all goods to come in, except weapons and materials used to make weapons. Israel also provides Gaza with clean water and electricity.

11. Gaza was and is the largest receiver of international aid per capita than any other place on earth, other than Ukrainian recently. Hamas uses this aid, YOUR tax payer funds to build weapons, tunnels and smuggle weapons to murder Israeli children instead of building the infrastructure for their own children that ISRAEL provides for them.

12. Since 2005 Israel did not have 1 soldier or civilian occupying Gaza

13. Hamas is using their population, who also support them for the most part, as human shields despite the fact that Israel calls all the civilians on their cell phones and tell them to clear out certain areas before they attack. What other military does that? America? UK? Russia?

Lastly, Israeli civilians have been attacked by missiles and terrorists every year since they have withdrawn from Gaza in various waves of strength. They could have made peace with Israel at any time since 1948. Israel is done. No more. No more aid. No more food, water or electricity = No more Hamas. This was a Holocaust, a pogrom. Israel will continue this fight for its survival now until Hamas, who are ISIS barbarians is no more. Anyone who says otherwise is simply an antisemite. There is no in between. There is no defending them. They are not your friends or Jeremy Corbyn’s.

“No more food, water or electricity = No more Hamas.” It also means no more 2 million plus Palestinians- so another holocaust is your solution?!

 

[nicko31]

Quite staggering how Hamas managed to breach the Israel - Gaza wall in 30 places before anyone realised what was going on.

Clearly became too reliant of technology with insufficient redundancy built in

Explained: How Hamas foiled Israel’s $1bn security system

The Hamas offensive on Saturday may have taken Israel by surprise, but it seems the entire operation was a carefully planned attack - and one that Hamas documented on video. How did Hamas - which is proscribed by the UK government as a terror group - foil a multi-million pound…

www.channel4.com

 

[Hamilton]

Michael Brooks (RIP) a Jewish writer and broadcaster spoke about the moral complexities (not the complexity of a solution to the issues)

He poses a powerful thought experiment

Thanks for sharing this, but I can't help but think that he has just described the situation as it is. That's not complicated. He hasn't actually described what has created that situation and the reasons behind the entrenched cultures and beliefs. That's complicated and needs understanding.

But imagine this small extract needs to be seen in the context of other things he said prior to this or goes onto say, so in itself it's being used to do what? Blame Israel? Feels like it's used out of context.

Just as those maps that show the changing nature of Palestine since 1947 are misused.

Palestinians are being persecuted. The actions of certain governments are unacceptable, but the idea that this isn't complex is something I'm sure Mr Brooks would not want circulated. It is complex.

There's a reason why there's 9 million jewish people in Israel and a reason why they feel threatened. To be honest, in Mr Brooks analogy, there would be 9 million jews in Palestine if they were to swap places and place themselves in the West Bank and Gaza. There'd be none.

In 1917 the Ottoman empire attempted to expel 10,000 jews from Tel Aviv. The population of Jews in Palestine in 1880 was just 20,000. We all know the reason for the influx of Jewish people into Palestine, and so perhaps a few governments need to look a little closer to home when asking who created Israel. Persecution and fear causes peoples to move.

It is so complex.