[News] Middle East conflict

[Bakero]

Ones man Jihadists are another mans freedom fighters.

True but the poing still stands that Hamas would have expected and even wanted an escalation. The deaths and destruction will create a new generation of recruits.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

The coming days and weeks will be horrific, there will be huge bloodshed on both sides.

But the world needs to come together and make a plan. This has been drifting for too long and to me, this represents a global diplomatic failure. Yes we're a million miles away from peace now. But we at least need someone with the leadership to point the way of how we can get there

 

[Insel affe]

Talkshite just now....

Alan Brazil "I am just looking at pictures of Gaza, horrendous"

Ally McCoist "What's he up to now"

 

[Zeberdi]

Hamas would totally have anticipated what happens next. They want it to escalate. They are Jihadists.

Based on what evidence?

Did Al-Qaeda anticipate that Bush would launch a bloody ‘Global War on Terror’ that post-9/11 would result in millions of deaths and the displacement of 38 million people? Or that it continues to with no exit strategy!

Im pretty sure Hamas weren’t expecting Netanyahu to declare all out war within hours of their terrorist attack on Israel and begin a campaign to flatten Gaza and attempt to obliterate them and prepared to commit widespread civilian casualties in the process. In fact, the way they dispersed themselves amongst the Gaza population, they were probably relying on that not to happen!

 

[raymondo]

Talkshite just now....

Alan Brazil "I am just looking at pictures of Gaza, horrendous"

Ally McCoist "What's he up to now"

Was that seriously said?

 

[Bakero]

Talkshite just now....

Alan Brazil "I am just looking at pictures of Gaza, horrendous"

Ally McCoist "What's he up to now"

No. Surely not...

 

[Questions]

Based on what evidence?

Did Al-Qaeda anticipate that Bush would launch a bloody ‘Global War on Terror’ that post-9/11 would result in millions of deaths and the displacement of 38 million people? Or that it continues to with no exit strategy!

Im pretty sure Hamas weren’t expecting Netanyahu to declare all out war within hours of their terrorist attack on Israel and begin a campaign to flatten Gaza and attempt to obliterate them and prepared to commit widespread civilian casualties in the process. In fact, the way they dispersed themselves amongst the Gaza population, they were probably relying on that not to happen!

I stand by my statement that when Israel attack that that would be for the good for Hamas ( it won’t be for the innocent ) if it stifled all talks with Saudi etc.
Lebanon, Iran are all factors in it as well.

 

[Insel affe]

Was that seriously said?

yep

 

[Insel affe]

No. Surely not...

afraid so.

 

[nicko31]

Talkshite just now....

Alan Brazil "I am just looking at pictures of Gaza, horrendous"

Ally McCoist "What's he up to now"

That's on a par with the Rodney Marsh's Asian tsunami/Toon army joke, pretty tasteless. Some action needed IMHO

 

[Bakero]

Based on what evidence?

Did Al-Qaeda anticipate that Bush would launch a bloody ‘Global War on Terror’ that post-9/11 would result in millions of deaths and the displacement of 38 million people? Or that it continues to with no exit strategy!

Im pretty sure Hamas weren’t expecting Netanyahu to declare all out war within hours of their terrorist attack on Israel and begin a campaign to flatten Gaza and attempt to obliterate them and prepared to commit widespread civilian casualties in the process. In fact, the way they dispersed themselves amongst the Gaza population, they were probably relying on that not to happen!

Evidence?

History for a start. Look at the response to Hamas rocket attacks in 2014. About 50 Israeli deaths led to airstrikes on built up areas in Gaza leaving thousands dead, mostly civilians.

Hamas knew that slaughtering festival-goers and families would draw a fearsome response.

 

[sparkie]

Hamas would totally have anticipated what happens next. They want it to escalate. They are Jihadists.

Maybe.

2 points, perhaps :

1) Israel must try to avoid falling into traps and being manipulated into doing exactly what Hamas wants.

2) What if the Hamas attack was more "successful" than they planned it to be ? Perhaps the plan was to shoot a few and abduct a few but the Israeli security response was worse than expected. So Hamas on the ground went further than the leadership anticipated.

 

[Zeberdi]

I stand by my statement that when Israel attack that that would be for the good for Hamas ( it won’t be for the innocent ) if it stifled all talks with Saudi etc.
Lebanon, Iran are all factors in it as well.

But that wasn’t your statement though so not what I was replying to! And yes, to the above, if you had read my earlier posts, Ive already said as much as have many of us.

Again, I’d be interested to know upon what evidence/source material do you have to show that Hamas knew what Isreal would do next, based on the last 30 years of conflict, a limited missile strike/bombardment of key Hamas positions yes, and punishment dehoming yes, including a significant loss of life, but not the full scale of Isreal’s response would be, (unless they had intelligence to that end in advance)? - not even Mossad managed to anticipate the degree of Hamas’s incursion into Israel in a spectacular failing of one of the most sophisticated intelligence communities in the world - I honestly can’t see that Hamas foresaw the scale of Israel’s response - none of us did even after 10/7 - not until Netanyahu’s declared it. Netanyahu has declared a protracted war until Hamas is no longer able to operate in Gaza - this is a significant policy change from Israel to controlling terrorist activities in the Gaza Strip that is currently run by Hamas politically - one would find it hard to believe this is going to be like 2014 - ground troops never went in in 2014 for one thing. We’ll see, but if Netanyahu’s word is to be believed, this is already looking to be heading into an unprecedented escalation and change in trajectory since Israel withdraw from Gaza in 2005.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

Maybe.

2 points, perhaps :

1) Israel must try to avoid falling into traps and being manipulated into doing exactly what Hamas wants.

2) What if the Hamas attack was more "successful" than they planned it to be ? Perhaps the plan was to shoot a few and abduct a few but the Israeli security response was worse than expected. So Hamas on the ground went further than the leadership anticipated.

Number 2 sounds plausible

 

[hans kraay fan club]

That's on a par with the Rodney Marsh's Asian tsunami/Toon army joke, pretty tasteless. Some action needed IMHO

I can only assume that this exchange was a genuine misunderstanding / mis-hearing. McCoist at least, does not come across as a complete ****.

 

[Kalimantan Gull]

In addition to my above post in response to this, I would recommend that you do not build your understanding on what ’Zionism’ means by googling/reading a few fundamentalist or extremist literature (from either end of the spectrum !!) - it will give you a very biased perspective and won’t be reflective of the mainstream or even current political thinking in Israel nor provide us with an accurate contextual understanding of the current conflict.

Yeah, understood - but my take home from your previous post was that Zionism can mean different things to different people, and you would like people to accept the Liberal Zionism viewpoint as the established definition.

I accept your argument that that is indeed the case, especially within the Israeli populace at large, nevertheless it is clear that there are American Jews, with a media platform, who espouse the extreme view prominently. As we know about the current state of right wing American politics, there isn't much room for nuance or differences of opinion. Trump might well court people with this world view, but future right wing leaders may well fully believe it and make it a priority. Where that goes is just umhappy speculation.

 

[Nobby Cybergoat]

Based on what evidence?

Did Al-Qaeda anticipate that Bush would launch a bloody ‘Global War on Terror’ that post-9/11 would result in millions of deaths and the displacement of 38 million people? Or that it continues to with no exit strategy!

Im pretty sure Hamas weren’t expecting Netanyahu to declare all out war within hours of their terrorist attack on Israel and begin a campaign to flatten Gaza and attempt to obliterate them and prepared to commit widespread civilian casualties in the process. In fact, the way they dispersed themselves amongst the Gaza population, they were probably relying on that not to happen!

I disagree with you here.

Hamas obviously knew that murdering with women and children would lead to colossal escalation and must have either accepted this as a price worth paying, or more likely as way of bringing others into the conflict.

I can't get into the crazed minds of Hamas, so can't claim to understand their motives, but seeking to drive a wedge between Israel and Saudi is plausible

 

[heathgate]

But that wasn’t your statement though so not what I was replying to! And yes, to the above, if you had read my earlier posts, Ive already said as much as have many of us.

Again, I’d be interested to know upon what evidence/source material do you have to show that Hamas knew what Isreal would do next, based on the last 30 years of conflict, a limited missile strike/bombardment of key Hamas positions yes, and punishment dehoming yes, including a significant loss of life, but not the full scale of Isreal’s response would be, (unless they had intelligence to that end in advance)? - not even Mossad managed to anticipate the degree of Hamas’s incursion into Israel in a spectacular failing of one of the most sophisticated intelligence communities in the world - I honestly can’t see that Hamas foresaw the scale of Israel’s response - none of us did even after 10/7 - not until Netanyahu’s declared it. Netanyahu has declared a protracted war until Hamas is no longer able to operate in Gaza - this is a significant policy change from Israel to controlling terrorist activities in the Gaza Strip that is currently run by Hamas politically - one would find it hard to believe this is going to be like 2014 - ground troops never went in in 2014 for one thing. We’ll see, but if Netanyahu’s word is to be believed, this is already looking to be heading into an unprecedented escalation and change in trajectory since Israel withdraw from Gaza in 2005.

I have to add this, in every case where Hamas in the case of Gaza, and Hezbollah in the north from Lebanon, have fired missiles or crossed the border to kill even a few Israeli citizens.... the IDF has responded in kind, in fact has responded very aggressively with reciprocal devastating, but targeted air strikes... Hamas knew exactly what was going to happen in response to the launching of 5 thousand unguided missiles into built up areas of Israel, together with a mass slaughter of more than a thousand Israelis......

If you are trying to mitigate the causes of the Israeli responses by claiming Hamas didn't realise this would happen, I suggest you give your head a wobble....they knew, they don't care.

 

[Machiavelli]

You say that, and it's true to some extent, but last night I had a look at the Mail and the Telegraph. I knew what to expect but I was still shocked by some of their coverage.

The Guardian and the BBC, for example, do try to give more detail but still tend to frame things in a particular way. Eg. 1000 Israelis "killed" whereas 1000 Palestinians "have died". The Guardian had a story last week in which they reported protestors in Gaza "received bullet wounds" to the ankles. So they were shot in the ankles then.

As someone said earlier on this thread, the words we choose matter.

Interesting tweet from John Simpson on this, following on from pressure from Starmer and Shapps that the BBC should refer to Hamas as terrorists rather than militants.
On a related note, one thing that's notable is that politicians currently are very keen on trotting out that 'Israel has a right to defend itself' (it does, in my view) whereas the parallel statement that 'Palestine has a right to defend itself' never gets uttered. If you can unpack why this is the case, then you're basically at the heart of the issue.

 

[Bakero]

Interesting tweet from John Simpson on this, following on from pressure from Starmer and Shapps that the BBC should refer to Hamas as terrorists rather than militants.
On a related note, one thing that's notable is that politicians currently are very keen on trotting out that 'Israel has a right to defend itself' (it does, in my view) whereas the parallel statement that 'Palestine has a right to defend itself' never gets uttered. If you can unpack why this is the case, then you're basically at the heart of the issue.

That's the crux of it. Likewise why an interviewee representing the Palestinians is immediately asked to condemn violence but the same is never asked of an Israeli.