[News] Middle East conflict

[aolstudios]

Well, he (Corbyn that is) was going into full Michael Foot mode as a leader of the Labour Party heading for a catastrophic election defeat.

Way beyond that, tbh

 

[borat]

The list of Israeli war crimes grows ever longer

 

[jonny.rainbow]

Are the tunnels under the hospital the new weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?

Odd they haven’t been found yet.

 

[Zeberdi]

Are the tunnels under the hospital the new weapons of mass destruction in Iraq?

Odd they haven’t been found yet.

It’s hard to know what to believe- I have also been thinking that there are similarities although in this case ‘Hamas leaders will be killed and weapons found’ for how else will the death of 4,000 children ever be ‘justified’? Finding ‘evidence‘ is Israel’s only defence to the charge of war crimes but ‘any‘ evidence is not enough …and what evidence is found, needs to be checked for its provenance imo.

Competing narratives typify this war so it is simply a question of how many more civilians have to die before Israel can provide enough evidence to say all this was justified? - Which is exactly why any claims of weapons found or evidence of Hamas operations bases has to be independently verified by the UN teams who can’t even get access into Al Shifa at the moment.

What has Israel ‘found’ in Gaza’s al-Shifa Hospital?

The Israeli military claims it has found rifles, grenades and military vests — but so far, no Hamas command centre.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[Albion my Albion]

- ‘eliminating the terrorists’ is largely incontrovertible, it’s the mass killing of civilians that people have an issue with.

the innocent civilians that the terrorists are hiding among in their hospitals. The same terrorists that you agree need to be eliminated. You want Israel to play by international rules while Hamas doesn't agree to those international rules and YOU are giving them license to do that.

 

[nicko31]

70,000 litres of fuel per day. That a whisky shot per capita , it won’t stop mass starvation

Israel says it will allow two trucks of fuel a day into Gaza

Mobile phone and internet connections have reportedly been partially restored after a fuel delivery.

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Zeberdi]

Marches taking place around UK -today - not the size of the London ones - terrible weather!

More than 100 pro-Palestine rallies to take place across UK, say organisers | Israel-Hamas war | The Guardian

Groups behind ceasefire protests attended by hundreds of thousands say local action will replace London march this week

amp.theguardian.com

Pro-Palestinian rallies to take place across the UK - with London march planned for next weekend

It comes a week after hundreds of thousands of people marched through the capital, calling for a ceasefire.

news.sky.com

 

[Zeberdi]

the innocent civilians that the terrorists are hiding among in their hospitals. The same terrorists that you agree need to be eliminated. You want Israel to play by international rules while Hamas doesn't agree to those international rules and YOU are giving them license to do that.

Firstly, the civilians are hiding in hospitals because they are either wounded/sick/or dying or because they are sheltering from Israeli bombs and unrelenting rocket attacks - I’m not giving Hamas licence to do anything - you saying that is just incorrect and based on a false correlation.

YES - btw - Israel I do expect certainly to abide by the Geneva convention and international humanitarian law - she is a State player, has benefited for decades from international trade, cooperation and arms sales as well as having a seat on the UN Security Council - that comes with a responsibility- Israel is signatory to the conventions and treaties with a military power far superior to Hamas and is unleashing horror on the Palestinian people. Two wrongs don’t make a right as you well know. I am simply saying 11,000 dead civilians and Israel has yet to show any evidence of having achieved Netanyahu’s objectives to get the hostages out alive and destroy Hamas.

You will find yourself on the wrong side of history my friend - support for Israel’s attack on Gaza is waning - and sympathy for the Palestinians is gaining global support and recognition of their plight.

And in case you think of twisting AGAIN what I have been saying on this thread, the attack by Hamas on Israel on 7/10 was utterly contemptible.

Both Israeli citizens and the civilians in Gaza deserve better than this.

 

[Flounce]

If it had been Britain brutally attacked by an old enemy in a surprise event in which innocent Brits were killed & their children forced to watch their parents murdered I think many would feel only one thing and that was to eliminate the terrorists and make Britain safe again. I know it is the way many, many Americans would feel.

Children of Gaza who who have lost most of their family members in this war will be the next generation of “terrorists” imo.

 

[tedebear]

You will find yourself on the wrong side of history my friend - support for Israel’s attack on Gaza is waning - and sympathy for the Palestinians is gaining global support and recognition of their plight.

Both Israeli citizens and the civilians in Gaza deserve better than this.

This is absolutely the thing. Hamas doing what they did was disgusting and there are war crimes have no doubt. But Israels respose now is excessive to say the least and beyond supportable, with war crimes of their own openly now occuring.

Its hard to see this war ever resolving anything though, which makes it even more horrific. A two state solution will continue to be fractious unless Israel fully hand back land and settlements they have taken outside the agreements of 70 odd years ago from Palestinians (doubtful they would), and leave Gaza and the West bank alone to govern itself (can it without enabling terrorists in a vacuum of power?)...Whilst in the middle people like you and I are being decimated.

What doesn't help is the inflammatory language used by both sides, racism, apartheid, colonial genocide. This article is particularly chilling, drawing a correlation with the Tutsi genocide, rightly or wrongly:

‘Human animals’: The sordid language behind Israel’s genocide in Gaza

“[Tutsis] are cockroaches. We will kill you.”Arabs are like “drugged cockroaches in a bottle”.The first quote was a line repeated frequently by the Radio Télévision Libre des Mille Collines, a Rwandan radio station, which is largely blamed for inciting hatred towards the Tutsi people. The second...

jordantimes.com

 

[shingle]

Here's some pics of mine from last weeks London event, I only caught the end bit as I was doing the Lord Mayor's show over in the City.

 

[Zeberdi]

What doesn't help is the inflammatory language used by both sides, racism, apartheid, colonial genocide. This article is particularly chilling, drawing a correlation with the Tutsi genocide, rightly or wrongly:

I agree with everything you say above but on your definition of what Is inflammatory language - referring to what is happening in Gaza as ‘genocide’ maybe too early yet to prove- (those committing it in law need to be shown as having intention) but the policies Israel are pursuing is having a genocidal effect so the discussion needs to be had (and is being had) as to whether the Israeli response to the attack on 10/7 constitutes ‘genocide’.

The use of the word ‘apartheid’ is not inflammatory imo ( unless you disagree that Palestinian citizens in Israel do not have the same legal and civil rights as Jewish citizens?) ‘Apartheid’ describes any system of government where a proportion of the population are unequal under the laws of that country due to race, religion etc

I absolutely agree that there is racial intolerance on both sides and extremely unhelpful (as has been some of the language used by a few posters here directed at other posters who have expressed alternative PoVs as well as some of the language that’s been directed at Palestinians or Jews)

 

[Albion my Albion]

Children of Gaza who who have lost most of their family members in this war will be the next generation of “terrorists” imo.

As I have explained before they don't have to be terrorists. Why aren't the Israeli children of the parents killed in front of those Israeli children expected to be terrorists? If the Gaza children actually abide by the international rules of war and realize peace is a better process I think then a two state solution can be worked out. But to expect the opposite reaction of what is expected of the Israeli children is not a proper way to think. They are all children dying and watching their parents die.

 

[beorhthelm]

As I have explained before they don't have to be terrorists. Why aren't the Israeli children of the parents killed in front of those Israeli children expected to be terrorists? If the Gaza children actually abide by the international rules of war and realize peace is a better process I think then a two state solution can be worked out. But to expect the opposite reaction of what is expected of the Israeli children is not a proper way to think. They are all children dying and watching their parents die.

they get to join IDF instead.

 

[Flounce]

they get to join IDF instead.

Quite

 

[Tom Hark Preston Park]

they get to join IDF instead.

They got little say in the matter. Most have to join the IDF

 

[Bakero]

As I have explained before they don't have to be terrorists. Why aren't the Israeli children of the parents killed in front of those Israeli children expected to be terrorists? If the Gaza children actually abide by the international rules of war and realize peace is a better process I think then a two state solution can be worked out. But to expect the opposite reaction of what is expected of the Israeli children is not a proper way to think. They are all children dying and watching their parents die.

Because the Israeli children won't grow up in a poverty-stricken open-air prison.

 

[borat]

Interesting commentary/interview highlighting the deep ties between Israel and both our leadership and media.

Covers how Israel is for the first time starting to lose its control of the narrative mainly due to the rise of social media - Has given more scope for the stream propaganda to be refuted more easily. Downside is that said propaganda can be disseminated more easily.

 

[Zeberdi]

They got little say in the matter. Most have to join the IDF

Only for 18-24 months.

As I have explained before they don't have to be terrorists. Why aren't the Israeli children of the parents killed in front of those Israeli children expected to be terrorists? If the Gaza children actually abide by the international rules of war and realize peace is a better process I think then a two state solution can be worked out. But to expect the opposite reaction of what is expected of the Israeli children is not a proper way to think. They are all children dying and watching their parents dying

I’m not sure how you think the process of radicalisation works - and it’s not Gazan children parachuting into Israel or firing rockets but it is them being killed in the 1000s, being maimed or buried under rubble so what international rules of law are you suggesting they abide by?

Of course nobody has to be a ‘terrorist‘ but Palestinian kids growing up under occupation and having none of the freedoms you or I have nor even their very basic needs met much of the time, do not see themselves as ‘terrorists’ but when throwing stones or Molotov cocktail bottles they are fighting what they see as the ‘monster’ - a brutal occupying force - the collective punishments (often deadly) meted out on Palestinians living in the OPT in response to any kids who show resistance by throwing stones would only confirm that they have no alternative but to fight back even more. These kids in the OPT are living under conditions where they are at risk daily of being further radicalised because of the random killings, human rights abuses and settler violence that they are subject to on a daily basis growing up. Yes, Israeli kids lose family members to the conflict but compared to Palestinian deaths since 2008, the number is very small and they are not children

Since 2008 ( excluding the current war) 306 Israel’s have died and 6,543 Palestinians

Data on casualties | United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied Palestinian territory

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www.ochaopt.org

Data on casualties | United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied Palestinian territory

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www.ochaopt.org

Jewish kids are largely inoculated from the politics of what goes on in the OPT and the majority face none of the triggers in their daily lives that might otherwise radicalise them but that doesn’t stop their thinking being largely the product of the Israeli propaganda machine from cradle to grave (see for example the video @borat posted above)

The majority of young Israelis have never even meet Palestinians growing up and most are certainly are not engaged with the issues of Occupation in the same way Palestinian children are. Where Israel youth/kids are engaged more directly in the conflict, for example growing up in illegal settlements, they are just as likely to form radicalised views as Palestinian kids and are just as likely as them to be the perpetrators of violence.

It requires both the young Palestinians and Israelis to bring in change and recent trends suggest that on both sides there is hope for peace building but their leaders do not listen.

How Do Israeli and Palestinian Youth View the Prospects for Peace?

Amid this year’s rising tide of violence between Israelis and Palestinians, a new poll released last week by Khalil Shikaki and Dahlia Scheindlin brings more sobering news. In the study, pollsters found that in Israel, for the first time, support for a nondemocratic regime (unequal rights...

www.usip.org

As I have said many times, the current conflict between Hamas and the Netanyahu government testifies to how extremist ideologies are the driving forces on BOTH sides behind the perpetuating violence.

 

[Albion my Albion]

That is not true. Jewish Israeli kids are not inoculated against the politics. How can you even make that judgement. Your antisemitic prejudice is truly showing.