- Jan 19, 2010
- 1,377
A very minor point in context to what's going on in Gaza, but The Guardian doesn't have a paywall. It might not be everyone's cup of tea, but at least it's freely available.
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[News] Middle East conflict
- Thread starter Greenbag50
- Start date
Thanks @Bakero - it’s stuck behind a paywall (I don’t subscribe) but essentially what I have been saying for days with regard to stereotyping of demonstrators- so thank you for posting link.
Btw - the Guardian has lifted it’s paywall for the course of the Israel-Hamas War on it’s news pages which is good going from them but your article comes under editorial I think.
Latest news, sport and opinion from the Guardian
Latest news, sport, business, comment, analysis and reviews from the Guardian, the world's leading liberal voicewww.theguardian.com
There's never a paywall on the Guardian, is there? Sometimes there's a pop up asking if you want to subscribe but there's no obligation to do so.
Seagull58
In the Algarve
I, for one, found this article newsworthy. Whilst it doesn't say that Israel was involved in founding Hamas (as has been claimed on here), it does explain that Netanyahu has been tacitly enabling its support and existence in order to destabilise the Palestinian Authority and try to ensure no progress towards a 2 state solution. As long as you have Hamas intent on eradicating the Israeli state and Netanyahu intent on ensuring Israel does not agree to a Palestinian State there will, tragically, be continual conflict and deaths.
Both sides have to change their positions or be removed from the equation.
For Netanyahu this is a similar moment Thatcher had with the Falklands. Both were warned prior, both unpopular, the war garners support for their political aims. With his Zionist partners in government this is a worrying time.
Seagull58
In the Algarve
I was able to access it and I'm not a subscriber.Thanks @Bakero - it’s stuck behind a paywall (I don’t subscribe) but essentially what I have been saying for days with regard to stereotyping of demonstrators- so thank you for posting link.
Btw - the Guardian has lifted it’s paywall for the course of the Israel-Hamas War on it’s news pages which is good going from them but your article comes under editorial I think.
Latest news, sport and opinion from the Guardian
Latest news, sport, business, comment, analysis and reviews from the Guardian, the world's leading liberal voice
- Jul 10, 2003
- 27,778
How Israel helped create Hamas
It also obscures Hamas's curious history. To a certain degree, the Islamist organization whose militant wing has rained rockets on Israel the past few weeks has the Jewish state to thank for its existence. Hamas launched in 1988 in Gaza at the time of the first intifada, or uprising, with a charter now infamous for its anti-Semitism and its refusal to accept the existence of the Israeli state. But for more than a decade prior, Israeli authorities actively enabled its rise.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2014/07/30/how-israel-helped-create-hamas/
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- Oct 20, 2022
- 6,941
Apologies - I have edited my post accordingly - I have never really noticed that it was just a registration pop up and request for donations rather than a paywall - I skipped over the Guardian website it many times in the past for thinking that was a paywall pop up without even reading it properly - so thank you for setting me right!
Seagull58
In the Algarve
Unfortunately, this one is behind a paywall.
- Jul 10, 2003
- 27,778
I didn't get a paywall
There's loads out there, but the current conflict is taking up all the news feeds. Just look for articles before the current conflict. Maybe try this one
How and why Israel helped create Hamas?
https://tribune.com.pk/story/2302309/how-and-why-israel-helped-create-hamas
Seagull58
In the Algarve
Thanks. I ca
A couple of interesting extracts for context:-
Gaza, which was occupied by Israel as a result of June 1967 Arab-Israeli war, patronised Mujama al-Islamiya which was formed by a Palestinian cleric Sheikh Ahmed Yasin and viewed it as a harmless organisation involved in charity and welfare work for the Palestinian community of Gaza. Mujama al-Islamiya later became Hamas before Intifada-I was launched in December 1987.
How Israel helped the creation of Hamas is narrated by Andrew Higgins, an Israeli official who had worked in Gaza in the 1980s. In an interview with The Wall Street Journal in 2009, he stated, “When I look back at the chain of events I think we made a mistake but at the time nobody thought about the possible results. Israel’s military-led administration in Gaza looked favorably on the paraplegic cleric, who set up a wide network of schools, clinics, a library and kindergartens. Sheikh Yassin formed the Islamist group Mujama al-Islamiya, which was officially recognized by Israel as a charity and then, in 1979, as an association. Israel also endorsed the establishment of the Islamic University of Gaza, which it now regards as a hotbed of militancy.
Thanks, i can access that.I didn't get a paywall
There's loads out there, but the current conflict is taking up all the news feeds. Just look for articles before the current conflict. Maybe try this one
How and why Israel helped create Hamas?
https://tribune.com.pk/story/2302309/how-and-why-israel-helped-create-hamas
A couple of interesting extracts for context:-
Gaza, which was occupied by Israel as a result of June 1967 Arab-Israeli war, patronised Mujama al-Islamiya which was formed by a Palestinian cleric Sheikh Ahmed Yasin and viewed it as a harmless organisation involved in charity and welfare work for the Palestinian community of Gaza. Mujama al-Islamiya later became Hamas before Intifada-I was launched in December 1987.
How Israel helped the creation of Hamas is narrated by Andrew Higgins, an Israeli official who had worked in Gaza in the 1980s. In an interview with The Wall Street Journal in 2009, he stated, “When I look back at the chain of events I think we made a mistake but at the time nobody thought about the possible results. Israel’s military-led administration in Gaza looked favorably on the paraplegic cleric, who set up a wide network of schools, clinics, a library and kindergartens. Sheikh Yassin formed the Islamist group Mujama al-Islamiya, which was officially recognized by Israel as a charity and then, in 1979, as an association. Israel also endorsed the establishment of the Islamic University of Gaza, which it now regards as a hotbed of militancy.
- Jul 10, 2003
- 27,778
If you have the time, there are lots of interviews and first hand reports from Israeli officials at the time explaining how they backed Hamas (and it's forerunners) in order to try and split Palestinian support away from the powerful and secular PLO who were wanting a two state solution.
I wonder if they now regard what they did as successful
schmunk
Why oh why oh why?
I hadn't until now really taken on board how small the Gaza Strip is - about 25 by 4-7 miles - roughly the same size as Mid Sussex.
Whilst extremely difficult for 1 Million people at the same time, that journey across Wadi Gaza is only equivalent to moving from Brighton to Shoreham.
- Oct 20, 2022
- 6,941
Yep
I posted this in one of my much earlier posts to this thread along with a history of Hamas (cant find the specific post)
What Is Hamas?
The Palestinian militant group struggled to govern the Gaza Strip before launching a surprise attack on Israel in 2023. Now facing Israel’s military campaign to destroy it, Hamas’s future is in doubt…
www.cfr.org
you will find on the internet numerous articles on various aspects of the war/Hamas that are hyperbolic and designed to make political points so be discerning when relying on internet sources for info eg ‘Hamas funded by US!’ - which basically means Hamas skimmed off humanitarian aid provided to Gaza to help prop up it’s terrorist activities OR ‘Netanyahu and Hamas Working together’ which more accurately means both Netanyahu and Hamas share a common goal, neither support a two State solution and neither supported the self-rule administration for the OPT Palestinian Authority (created after the Oslo Accord ) - so when Hamas overcame Fatah (the other elected partner along with Hamas that served on the PA) - it served Netanyahu interests well and his far-right extremist Party along with the fundamentalist Religious Zionists bought down the Labour Party and subsequently assassinated Rabin who had signed the Oslo Accords which weakened Fatah/PA (split them in two effectively) . This strengthened Hamas (who were further strengthened by receiving arms from Hezbollah) - Netanyahu’s oppressive policies towards the Palestinians have arguably also strengthened Hamas by radicalising support for them. I have posted loads of info on this already - with all these links too …
Please - don’t take offence - I know it is a long thread but rather than repeatedly asking basic background questions that have been dealt with and numerous posts then answering and reposting links and comments ad nauseam that were made earlier, perhaps people could do a little background reading of their own first if they have time or could use the drop down feature ‘who replied’ at the top right corner of the thread? - if you click on for example my tally - (or anyone else’s ) it will give you a list of all my posts - clicking on some of those by scanning through what the first few lines are showing and what is relevant to your question, will generally take you to the part of the thread where a particular issue is being discussed - ( I only say ‘mine’ in this instance to Seagull58 because I know that just about every question you have asked, I and others have already answered , ) and there’s beginning to be a lot of duplication and going round in circles .
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Seagull58
In the Algarve
Yes, I've seen that. This view, obviously, became less popular after 1988 when Hamas became a fully-fledged military/terrorist organisation (subsequently supported and controlled by Iran) but came back into vogue from 2014 under Netanyahu's leadership.If you have the time, there are lots of interviews and first hand reports from Israeli officials at the time explaining how they backed Hamas (and it's forerunners) in order to try and split Palestinian support away from the powerful and secular PLO who were wanting a two state solution.
I wonder if they now regard what they did as successful
Some similarity with the US funding Bin Laden during the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan and enabling the creation of Al Qaeda as a terrorist organisation.
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Wokeworrier
Active member
A typically thoughtful and interesting response from Daniel Finkelstein addressing a few points I have read on this thread, well worth a read.
A short extract below ..
... as long as Hamas dominates there can be no Free Palestine. No liberty. No freedom. No security. I don’t just mean for Israelis. I mean for Palestinians too.
For as long as Hamas dominates, it will launch wars against Israel, as it did earlier this month. It does this as a strategy to provoke nice people like you to put pressure on Israel to allow Hamas more freedom. So every time you write to me as you did, you are encouraging them to carry on. This, I know, is far from you what you want. But it is the practical effect.
Urging Israel to hold back now, or call a ceasefire, is not the same as wishing for peace or urging a two state solution, or saying you don’t like Benjamin Netanyahu or arguing that the settlements are a moral and strategic error. It is not the same as trying to be liberal and pacific.
It is, instead, arguing that Hamas ought to be rewarded for their action and that peace and security is possible with them next door. Which it simply isn’t.
What freeing Palestine requires above all is for Hamas to be completely defeated. This may not be sufficient, but it is certainly necessary. And what that means is that Israel has to see through its policy of defeating them. And you have to support it. Not (and this is important) despite the impact on innocent Palestinians. But because of the impact on them. Because they need liberation and security from Hamas as much as any Israeli does.
A short extract below ..
... as long as Hamas dominates there can be no Free Palestine. No liberty. No freedom. No security. I don’t just mean for Israelis. I mean for Palestinians too.
For as long as Hamas dominates, it will launch wars against Israel, as it did earlier this month. It does this as a strategy to provoke nice people like you to put pressure on Israel to allow Hamas more freedom. So every time you write to me as you did, you are encouraging them to carry on. This, I know, is far from you what you want. But it is the practical effect.
Urging Israel to hold back now, or call a ceasefire, is not the same as wishing for peace or urging a two state solution, or saying you don’t like Benjamin Netanyahu or arguing that the settlements are a moral and strategic error. It is not the same as trying to be liberal and pacific.
It is, instead, arguing that Hamas ought to be rewarded for their action and that peace and security is possible with them next door. Which it simply isn’t.
What freeing Palestine requires above all is for Hamas to be completely defeated. This may not be sufficient, but it is certainly necessary. And what that means is that Israel has to see through its policy of defeating them. And you have to support it. Not (and this is important) despite the impact on innocent Palestinians. But because of the impact on them. Because they need liberation and security from Hamas as much as any Israeli does.
I'm not sure it addresses any points on this thread at all.
But you don't visit this thread to engage in good faith debate. It's never been your style, and it's never likely to be.
- Jul 10, 2003
- 27,778
Played the ball first time, just carried through to play the man
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5Live just reported that Hamas have said that 50 hostages have been killed in air strikes. 
Seagull58
In the Algarve
But it does. Finkelstein is arguing that Israel must be allowed to follow through on its plan to attack and destroy Hamas in Gaza regardless of the collateral damage to Palestinian civilians. He says that peace and security is not possible until Hamas is eradicated. That extreme viewpoint is very pertinent to the thread topic, isn't it?