[Politics] May 2021 local elections and Hartlepool by-election

[Swansman]

Vote Graham Potter

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I'm a raging lefty (not aligned to any particular party) and have spent many years getting angry at this shower of shit government- especially while working in the charity sector where I'd see first hand the misery that they were piling on people. Guess what? It didn't get me anywhere. Getting frustrated with people voting for them didn't get me anywhere either.

You can call people "thick" all you want. Yep, education standards in parts of this country are crap and a lot of people aren't that bright and don't engage in political discourse, watch PMQ's etc. People who you may think are "thick" still get a vote and calling them thick will often lead to them doubling down on their views. Btw there's plenty of not especially bright people who vote for Labour, Lib Dem, Greens etc as well

I've tried really hard to understand people who vote Tory lately. Not hardcore posh old blokes who have voted for them all their lives and don't really think about it, more people who I wouldn't necessarily expect to vote for a right wing party. A common theme actually is that they're not really that fussed about what the tories stand for, it's often more that there are aspects of the left that completely repel them (a lot of those aspects are available to read on this thread) and have pushed them to the Tories- they're not even necessarily right wing or conservative and actually probably hold more centrist views but vote Tory because in their mind it's a marginally better option. A lot of discourse now has nothing to do with the traditional divides between right and left which were established on economic grounds but is now dominated by more social and moral arguments. A lot of the viewpoints of "the left" don't appeal to traditional working class communities and so they don't see their views represented by parties on the left

Labour are still the party of the larger cities- what I don't like is that this is seen as a bad thing. Sure you probably won't win elections by JUST appealing to city dwellers but there are a lot of social issues in large cities that you don't find elsewhere- poor housing, homelessness, poverty, crime (which is why I hate the term "metropolitan elite" especially when it comes out of the mouths of people educated at ETON) and these people still need representing. Labour still undoubtedly appeal to these people so perhaps they should focus their efforts in these areas?

Decent post. I grew up supporting Labour. I was a party member and also a part of the Young Socialists. In the days you are talking about when the divide was over economics I was very much in favour of socialist solutions. The world has changed though and capitalism has triumphed. Not much point in being a socialist. I am still a social liberal though and should be an easy electoral target for modern Labour. Unfortunately for them, I am (as you say) repelled by aspects of the party and it’s supporters; middle class champagne activism, barely concealed contempt for working class people, no compromise with the electorate, student issues, Jeremy Corbyn and friends and most of all their support for membership of the EU.

 

[KeithDublin]

Decent post. I grew up supporting Labour. I was a party member and also a part of the Young Socialists. In the days you are talking about when the divide was over economics I was very much in favour of socialist solutions. The world has changed though and capitalism has triumphed. Not much point in being a socialist. I am still a social liberal though and should be an easy electoral target for modern Labour. Unfortunately for them, I am (as you say) repelled by aspects of the party and it’s supporters; middle class champagne activism, barely concealed contempt for working class people, no compromise with the electorate, student issues, Jeremy Corbyn and friends and most of all their support for membership of the EU.

So, let me get this right, you're a 'social liberal' who won't vote labour because of 'middle class champagne activism' and you prefer the tories, who are upper class etonians?

 

[stewart12]

interestingly, Labour and Greens have been picking up traditional Tory seats in the south...for example Peacehaven with a 20% swing

 

[Igzilla]

I think it's time now for Labour to really consider an electoral pact with the Lib Dems and the Greens and for the best anti-Tory candidate to stand alone in every constituency in the next GE. That should make the Tories think again about the validity of FPTP.

 

[mr sheen]

I think it's time now for Labour to really consider an electoral pact with the Lib Dems and the Greens and for the best anti-Tory candidate to stand alone in every constituency in the next GE. That should make the Tories think again about the validity of FPTP.

Absolutely this. The rise of the SNP has killed labour's chance of doing this alone and a progressive alliance would have a great chance. The centre left and left can decide between having their own parties and policies and being perennial losers, or make some compromises and pose a real challenge to the unified centre right and right.

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

So, let me get this right, you're a 'social liberal' who won't vote labour because of 'middle class champagne activism' and you prefer the tories, who are upper class etonians?

None of the Tories I know are upper class Etonians. They are a mixture of business people and northern working class family members. Quite possibly you need to get out of the echo chamber and into the real world inhabited by many of your former supporters. Yes, I am a social liberal and am quite aware of the type of people in the Tory party you are talking about. Change your party’s stance on Brexit and rein in the contempt and you can have my vote back.

 

[Bry Nylon]

Labour can’t even agree what their own party should be and what it should stand for. There is no chance they will enter any sort of coalition or electoral pact. All the while the left wing of the party pursue a purist brand of socialism they will be in the political wilderness.

 

[durrington gull]

None of the Tories I know are upper class Etonians. They are a mixture of business people and northern working class family members. Quite possibly you need to get out of the echo chamber and into the real world inhabited by many of your former supporters. Yes, I am a social liberal and am quite aware of the type of people in the Tory party you are talking about. Change your party’s stance on Brexit and rein in the contempt and you can have my vote back.

Absolutely spot on - the sneering arrogant left and they still wonder why droves of their traditional voting base have either completely lost interest or voted against them

 

[stewart12]

I think it's time now for Labour to really consider an electoral pact with the Lib Dems and the Greens and for the best anti-Tory candidate to stand alone in every constituency in the next GE. That should make the Tories think again about the validity of FPTP.

absolutely. Realistically apart from branding what is the difference between Labour, Greens and Lib Dems? What, ideologically are any of them offering that the others aren't? Most elections see the majority, or at least close to the majority, of voters voting for centre to left parties but the left is so fractured. The right know where they stand but the left, even WITHIN PARTIES, are way too divided. FPTP is absolute bollocks, is completely undemocratic and leads to so much voter apathy and needs to go. Form an alliance, even if it's a loose one, with a coalition government in mind, and on a platform of electoral change. And proper change, none of this AV bollocks, something that people actually understand and can get behind.

 

[mr sheen]

Labour can’t even agree what their own party should be and what it should stand for. There is no chance they will enter any sort of coalition or electoral pact. All the while the left wing of the party pursue a purist brand of socialism they will be in the political wilderness.

Sadly I agree. I imagine most of them would rather remain "pure" losers than compromise. Unlike the tories, who bring all shades of right wingers together to win. They may bicker, but they always come together to collect the votes.

 

[Harry Wilson's tackle]

Decent post. I grew up supporting Labour. I was a party member and also a part of the Young Socialists. In the days you are talking about when the divide was over economics I was very much in favour of socialist solutions. The world has changed though and capitalism has triumphed. Not much point in being a socialist. I am still a social liberal though and should be an easy electoral target for modern Labour. Unfortunately for them, I am (as you say) repelled by aspects of the party and it’s supporters; middle class champagne activism, barely concealed contempt for working class people, no compromise with the electorate, student issues, Jeremy Corbyn and friends and most of all their support for membership of the EU.

I was initially surprised to hear that labour are going to have yet another policy review owing to the recent election outcomes. Many people voted tory for the first time when Corbyn ran labour, and haven't seen enough of, or from, Starmer yet to think again. Plus we have been vaccinated whereas the silly EU people haven't. What reason is there to change?

As a labour party member I see little point arguing with that.

Labour should play the long game, be better, review their policies quietly, and be stoic.

Either Boris will turn round the economy and keep the lid on Covid or he won't. If he does there is no point Labour asking 'what did we do wrong?'. The answer is 'we were not in charge when things were fixed and people felt better'.

If Boris fails, Labour need to stay professional over the next few years and not lurch from pillock to posterboy like the tories did when Blair was PM, so that they look like a government in waiting when opportunity to be elected arises, rather than goggle-eyed carpetbaggers.

This is what normally happens in UK politics in my experience. We can mythologise events (3 day week, winter of discontent, 'things can only get betterrrrr') but it normally boils down to gut feeling based on circumstances (for the floating voter), with cumulative grudges (Corbyn, friend of the IRA, antisemitic, "I will never vote for those ****s again!"; Thatcher destroyed traditional industry and created mass employment, "I will never vote for tory scum!", etc.) contributing some inertia.

Happy days.

 

[Weststander]

I don’t know anyone that died of covid. There must not have been a pandemic.

Would that be the pandemic that literally was pan-global, killing huge numbers across Europe for example, deadly mistakes made by almost every government. The UK’s early vaccine success was a bummer for some left wing zealots in this country who put party politics first, someone bitterly described it on NSC as “Boris lucked out”. He didn’t, his administration was ahead of the game in this one key area, whilst other blocs or countries were embedded in ridiculous bureaucracy.

Which cannot help the melancholic state or mind, the all pervasive gloom and doom on life in the UK. Cheer up, shirley there’s far more to life than relentlessly typing against a political party every single day, for year after year. Does the Albion appeal, F1, gardening, travel opportunities?

 

[Neville's Breakfast]

I was initially surprised to hear that labour are going to have yet another policy review owing to the recent election outcomes. Many people voted tory for the first time when Corbyn ran labour, and haven't seen enough of, or from, Starmer yet to think again. Plus we have been vaccinated whereas the silly EU people haven't. What reason is there to change?

As a labour party member I see little point arguing with that.

Labour should play the long game, be better, review their policies quietly, and be stoic.

Either Boris will turn round the economy and keep the lid on Covid or he won't. If he does there is no point Labour asking 'what did we do wrong?'. The answer is 'we were not in charge when things were fixed and people felt better'.

If Boris fails, Labour need to stay professional over the next few years and not lurch from pillock to posterboy like the tories did when Blair was PM, so that they look like a government in waiting when opportunity to be elected arises, rather than goggle-eyed carpetbaggers.

This is what normally happens in UK politics in my experience. We can mythologise events (3 day week, winter of discontent, 'things can only get betterrrrr') but it normally boils down to gut feeling based on circumstances (for the floating voter), with cumulative grudges (Corbyn, friend of the IRA, antisemitic, "I will never vote for those ****s again!"; Thatcher destroyed traditional industry and created mass employment, "I will never vote for tory scum!", etc.) contributing some inertia.

Happy days.

Just as an aside I think the EU vaccination programme may be back on track. I deal with a company in an Eastern EU member state and was told on a Teams meeting last week that the over 50s amongst them had all been vaccinated. Behind the UK but catching up fast I think.

 

[Weststander]

I get that Labour have made misjudgements and mistakes, but what are these Red Wall people who have switched to voting Tory actually getting? There are no more jobs, incomes haven't gone up, there are tariffs on imports and British exports, record deaths from Covid and plenty of sleaze.

Record deaths from COVID ... by what measure?

The Economist/John Hopkins University total excess deaths stats don’t show that at all. We don’t come anywhere having the “record” by the other subjective measures either.

 

[stewart12]

Sadly I agree. I imagine most of them would rather remain "pure" losers than compromise. Unlike the tories, who bring all shades of right wingers together to win. They may bicker, but they always come together to collect the votes.

yep. The differences (ideologically) between Labour, Lib Dems and Greens are probably smaller than those within the Conservatives party. The difference is that some of the left have such a narrow view of how things should be and anything outside of that is unacceptable- see the constant sniding towards Starmer (or "Keith" as they call him) for being "a tory" which he quite clearly isn't, he's just further towards the centre than Corbyn. As we saw with Blair a centrist Labour government will still bring in a lot of social programmes associated with the left but they'll do it in a way that, most importantly, people who aren't on the left can get behind...I'm baffled why they can't see it but Starmer hasn't got a hope in hell if members of his own party can't get on board with him

 

[Dick Head]

That’s the point though - it’s pretty unique that governments win by-elections.

I’m sure I heard this morning on a TV interview that since the war … only 4 by-elections have been won by the party in government. Hartlepool would make 5. That makes this one significant.

The Tories would have won Hartlepool last time if the Brexit Party hadn't split the vote. That's why I don't think it's quite as significant as some people are saying it is. Still good optics* for Johnson though.



* I hate that word

 

[mr sheen]

yep. The differences (ideologically) between Labour, Lib Dems and Greens are probably smaller than those within the Conservatives party. The difference is that some of the left have such a narrow view of how things should be and anything outside of that is unacceptable- see the constant sniding towards Starmer (or "Keith" as they call him) for being "a tory" which he quite clearly isn't, he's just further towards the centre than Corbyn. As we saw with Blair a centrist Labour government will still bring in a lot of social programmes associated with the left but they'll do it in a way that, most importantly, people who aren't on the left can get behind...I'm baffled why they can't see it but Starmer hasn't got a hope in hell if members of his own party can't get on board with him

And the fallout that is sure to accompany the sacking of Angela Raynor is likely to be a fine example of party in-fighting.

 

[Leekbrookgull]

With more to follow as for shadow chancellor Dodds unbelievable.

 

[The Clamp]

Would that be the pandemic that literally was pan-global, killing huge numbers across Europe for example, deadly mistakes made by almost every government. The UK’s early vaccine success was a bummer for some left wing zealots in this country who put party politics first, someone bitterly described it on NSC as “Boris lucked out”. He didn’t, his administration was ahead of the game in this one key area, whilst other blocs or countries were embedded in ridiculous bureaucracy.

Which cannot help the melancholic state or mind, the all pervasive gloom and doom on life in the UK. Cheer up, shirley there’s far more to life than relentlessly typing against a political party every single day, for year after year. Does the Albion appeal, F1, gardening, travel opportunities?

You really have missed the point.